Overweight: Your perspective

[Tuff Guy 62]

dharte, most of what you wrote is true except the "little more maneuverable" part. There is no comparison between any full size pick up and my old 1986 Toyota/Ranger II FWC in the hills. You simply could not get your F250 where I take my rig. BTW, my loaded/wet rig (not a shell either) is still a couple hundred pounds under GVW.

cwd

While that may be true about your old '86', the realities of 2017 are quite different.

The taco is no longer a compact pickup, it now falls into the mid-size category. A modern Tacoma is about the same size as the Gen 1 Tundras. A quick Google search shows the width for a 2017 Tacoma varies from 74.4 to 75.2 inches depending on model & equipment.

Today, I test drove a 2017 Ram 2500 with the offroad package and 6.4L gas motor, this rig is totally BA. Width on the Ram 2500 varies from 79.1 to 79.5 inches. So in comparison we're talking about the taco being about 4.5 inches narrower than a full size 3/4 ton pickup. IMO that is not significant difference to really affect accessibility. The big difference between the two is payload. A Ram 2500 6.4L gasser has a payload of 3,300 lbs, that's about twice the payload of the Tacoma.

I'm working the sales team right now and hoping to purchase for $37k out the door, which is about the same price for a 4wd Tacoma before tax & license.

 

[cwdtmmrs]

I agree that the new Tacomas are not mini trucks, and that is why I opted to go with a 2nd generation pickup, However, they are still 2 feet shorter, 5 inches narrower and have a 3 foot less turning radius then a Ram 2500. Plus a Hawk camper is 12" wider than an Eagle or an older Ranger II model camper. I also agree that those things wouldn't matter to most folks, but they would to me.

cwd

 

[Stalking Light]

My Tacoma/Eagle is exactly the combo I wanted. Plenty comfortable on long trips, able to squeeze through places a full size couldn't, etc. If I were to go to a full size I'd probably go flatbed but that would rule out some of the places I go and my neighborhood wouldn't allow me to park it in my driveway. Bigger isn't always better for everyone.

 

[Tuff Guy 62]

......... I also agree that those things wouldn't matter to most folks, but they would to me.

cwd

.................... Bigger isn't always better for everyone.

Yes-sir, I agree with you fellas that one needs to find the "best fit" for each individuals needs and personal preference. What works for one, does not necessarily work for all.

Used to be a time, not all that long ago, when you could get a Model-T in any color as long as it was black.

Weight and width of our campers are just as varied as the trucks we use to haul them around. An FWC Eagle comes in at a petite 59" wide, while an ATC Panther is a XXL 84". That's a difference of 15-inches! However, that tells only part of the story. While my Panther may be wide, as a shell model it's very light with a dry weight of around 790 lbs, which is lighter than an Eagle with a standard factory build out.

However, I digress. The topic of this thread is "Overweight: Your Perspective......

My perspective is to keep things simple. Start with a vehicle from the factory, out of the box that can carry the required payload within the GVWR with zero suspension mods. Use that as your starting point and go from there. Pretty much all of our truck/camper combos are custom one-off projects that never really end, regularly siphoning money from our wallets.

But alas to each his own.......

Tuff Guy

 

[Bill D]

Isn't what really matters is that you get out and camp?

A lot of people go through years of research and then end up purchasing a used XYZ and in the end they are usually pretty content with it. Everything has trade offs, but no matter the combination most popup combos are quite versatile. I doubt there was ever a rally where somebody couldn't make it because of their combo (of course on the forum we have to take everything to the extreme ).

 

[idahoron]

The biggest reason to buy Toyota over the others is I like to drive my truck. I have seen a lot of the other big three being towed. Toyota is far more dependable that the rest. Fords don't get to 200,000 miles unless they are on a flat bed trailer.

 

[nikonron]

^^^ We Ron's think a bit alike.

 

[BillTheHiker]

My Tacoma + FWC Fleet fits( by 2 inches) in my garage and that is extremely important to me. I considered ATC bobcat but it measured a bit taller.

I also like being able to just sit DOWN into the driver's seat vs climbing up into a full size truck.

If I should ever forget to bring my step stool, I can get in the camper door by stepping on the truck rear bumper without too much difficulty.

The lower roof should make it easier to clear snow if I take it skiing. Whatever device I use to reach up there, it will be shorter and lighter than that required for a larger rig.

I can change my 16" tires, but just barely. Anything heavier could be an issue for me.

Smaller is often simpler and I like both.

 

[moveinon]

I know people buy different trucks for a variety of reasons, which is good because it keeps all of the manufacturers in business competing with each other. My last Toyota was the most dependable truck I have ever owned and that made the most difference to me buying my next truck. When I shopped for this last truck I saw that even though the Tacoma doesn’t have the best mileage it had the lowest cost per mile of any truck, and now a few years later it still does (Kelly Blue Book). It also has the highest resale value (JD Power) of any truck. It was also the smallest truck although bigger than my other one used to be and I expect to put 250,000 miles on this one also. I have only run into a few situations that a bigger truck would not have gotten where I go in the woods, and that related as much to length and turning radius as it did to added width. But it is also my daily driver in the city and there I run into a lot more issues in parking garages (they pack the spaces as tight as possible in those places) and other parking spaces where a truck that was any higher, wider and longer just would not fit. Even in my own garage with the camper beside the truck and car in the winter if the truck was any wider I could not open the car or truck doors so an added few inches really does make a difference to me in how I use it. I have a neighbor with a big 1 ton truck with a Bigfoot camper he parks outside- it is a beautiful set up and he loves it- he would not like my little combo at all and vise versa. I guess the important thing is that we get what we want and then want what we get after we get it.

 

[Tubel5000]

Wow, I wasn't aware that the "overweight" topic would create such a buzz!

First of all: Thank you very much to everyone who contributed. At first, I thought I was the only one who has the weight issue in mind, but it turns out that everyone is. Let me reply to some of you:

Also to answer your specific questions:

1. I am not worried about insurance. I read through the fine print in my insurance and there is no mention of weight. I don't really see this as any different than other vehicle modifications that may make your vehicle less safe (lifts, bumper bars, oversized tires, roof top tents etc).
2. I have not seen any evidence or instance of a broken frame on a tacoma from a camper, but would be interested if you had.
3. Upgraded suspension and tires and driving the truck like it is heavy (because it is heavy).

I have not seen a broken frame on a tacoma but recently read an article in a German magazine about it. If you klick on the following link (Google image search in German - I am Swiss, btw, that's why): LINK. There's no Tacoma but others.

To echo ETAV8R's comment, it really comes down to, are you going to be okay with it ? The adage here would be "know thyself".

You already know you would be overweight before buying - can't use the "I had the truck already" rational. And you'll know that everyone is different, what might work for a solo occupant may not be satisfactory for three people.

So, does having those two other occupants influence your weight concern ? Would weight concern affect where you chose to travel ? Others do it. Are you going to be okay with it ?

I would probably not be okay with being too heavy, that's why it concerns my that much. And by the amount of owners of this or similar combos I started to ask myself if there was a flaw in my thoughts or how the others do it.

Go back to square ONE:
1) Find the camper you want and get the WET weight from the mfger.
2) Make a list of EVERYTHING and EVERYBODY who will be on the trip and figure out the WEIGHT of all that.
3) Now you know what the load will be.
4) Now you can go look at trucks to see what you NEED....and that is probably a 3/4 ton based on the GVWR needed to haul you and your camper and your "stuff" safely down the happy highway.

That was exactly what I did and why I ended up so confused over the fact that so many people own combos that don't add up. Hence my questions..

One of my good friends is a Service manager for Toyota.
I told him my numbers for my Tundra. I am right at the Max most of the time and some times over. I talked to him about how the truck says X amount for GVWR.
He said read that close. It says that with P rated tires. Just the act of changing the tires increases the GVWR. I asked him by how much and he said he didn't know but The weak link in the GVWR rating for Toyota is the P rated tires.

Interesting. That could be the reason why all of the combos that "only" upgrade suspension and tires actually work..

Tubel5000,

I've written a number of article on this issue on Overland Tech and Travel. Search for JATAC and you'll find them. One looked at emergency handling, here. There's no doubt you'll be beyond the GVWR of a Tacoma with a Four Wheel Camper and all equipment, but there are steps you can take to compensate. Suspension is obviously number one.

Thanks for the interesting read, JHanson!

I'm confused why anyone would want a Tacoma/camper combo over a full size setup. They don't get better gas mileage than modern full size trucks and have a more limited range. My diesel F250 with a Hawk gets better mileage on trips than my friends loaded up Tacoma (without a camper). Also the full size trucks are more comfortable, safer in a crash, and obviously can tow more and handle heavier payloads. The only advantage to a Tacoma is it's a little more maneuverable, but how often would that really limit where you can go? Neither are going to function like a short wheelbase Wrangler off road. An article in today's paper said that certain models of full-size trucks and SUV's (like the F150) have a higher chance to make it to 200,000 miles over all other vehicles, so I don't think reliability is a factor. Tacomas are good trucks but they are not engineered for camper hauling.

In my case it's not a size issue but I intend to leave the states with the combo and a Toyota will always be easier to service/repair than a full size of the Big Three..

Isn't what really matters is that you get out and camp?

A lot of people go through years of research and then end up purchasing a used XYZ and in the end they are usually pretty content with it. Everything has trade offs, but no matter the combination most popup combos are quite versatile. I doubt there was ever a rally where somebody couldn't make it because of their combo (of course on the forum we have to take everything to the extreme ).

TRUE! But research is an important part of the process, becaus it
a) makes us believe we have the best possible option
it is a lot of fun to think about the rig we will once have

 

[buckland]

Late to this thread but not my own internal debate. Our 2011 Eagle with stove, sink, heater, solar, 2 batteries,Isotherm 65 fridge, 20 gallon water tank, and 6 gallons fuel on roof in 3 2 gal. cans.

We had the Eagle set up on out 2001 4 cylinder Tacoma 4wd with an added lead and Firestone air bags, everything else stock. It did fine for 5 years on rough backwood roads, though was scary on the hills or highway ... just not enough power.

We bought the Chevy midsize Colorado 2.8 turbo Diesel. Small truck with a lot of torque (369 lbs) and great mileage. It has an exhaust brake as well for the steep declines that saves your disk brakes a lot of wear. We added an extra leaf, air bags to level, a sway bar as it sits high (now really nice cornering) and Bilstein 5100 shocks. We do not skimp on weight but are prudent.

I can not yet comment on wild backroad driving yet but will have a lot more to say after our long summer trip to AK and The YK. From the test drives I have taken I will say it feels very solid and not exaggerating when I say on the interstate or blue highways I don't even know it's there with the diesel. The cab is very comfortable. It is s smaller truck answer to power needed. At this point I'm thinking I found my answer to our needs.

 

[cwdtmmrs]

I think the service/parts issue that Tubel5000 mentions would be the deciding factor for me even if I was a bit over GVW. There are always trade offs.

cwd

 

[ntsqd]

I contend that GVW is based on brakes, and then de-rated based on whatever tires the truck is sold with. My logic behind this is that pretty much any engine can move any mass (within reason), but can the brakes stop the whole within a reasonable distance? Factor in the lawyers and the NHTSA and all of those sorts of considerations and you get a GVW that is below what the truck can actually do. So when you are ~300 lbs over the number on the label, you may not yet have hit the max performance line for that truck. Since it is not a scientific formula, but rather a bunch of Factors of Safety arbitrarily discerned and applied to some proving grounds known only number there is no way to back out what the number might have been before all of the de-rating. One approach might be to look at the GAWR's and add them rather than the GVW. IME it is normal for the GAWR's to add up to something greater than the GVW, sometimes by a significant difference.

Look at the difference in brakes between the various GVW's, you'll see a consistent difference there. The higher the GVW, the bigger the brakes. then pick any particular mfg and look at the size of the brakes over the years. The same GVW truck 10 years ago had smaller brakes. What I infer from that is 'A)' people are carrying more & more stuff & '' we've got more idiots not paying attention to the road.

I have taken our 3/4t truck & camper places where I'd previously been in my '84 Xcab Yota. I've also not taken our camper places where I visited in my old '84. Not always because it wouldn't go there or fit or whatever, but because I didn't want to beat up on our camper & truck that hard to get in there. I've also taken our truck & camper places that I'd have never gone in the '84 because it just couldn't haul enough gear for my wife to be comfortable there. Might have been OK when we were younger, but not now.

 

[dharte]

The biggest reason to buy Toyota over the others is I like to drive my truck. I have seen a lot of the other big three being towed. Toyota is far more dependable that the rest. Fords don't get to 200,000 miles unless they are on a flat bed trailer.

Statements like this are just based on old stereotypes of crappy American cars. I have two friends that have over 300k on their Ford Superduty trucks and have never had major repairs. Sure things have gone wrong (injectors, fuel pumps, etc), but that will happen on Toyotas too. My second vehicle is a 41 year old Ford F-150 and it still runs strong. Buy the truck you want-but don't use reliability to justify the purchase.

 

[Bill D]

TRUE! But research is an important part of the process, becaus it
a) makes us believe we have the best possible option
it is a lot of fun to think about the rig we will once have


I agree. I often have as much or more fun researching items as I do owning them.
To be honest though. I think you would have to own a number of FWC truck and camper combos to finally come up with your dream solution. A few of our forum members have had the privilege. Most of us have not, but we're all happy campers.

Enjoy your research stage.

 

[Tuff Guy 62]

Statements like this are just based on old stereotypes of crappy American cars. I have two friends that have over 300k on their Ford Superduty trucks and have never had major repairs. Sure things have gone wrong (injectors, fuel pumps, etc), but that will happen on Toyotas too. My second vehicle is a 41 year old Ford F-150 and it still runs strong. Buy the truck you want-but don't use reliability to justify the purchase.

Yep, my work truck is a 99 Ford Ranger which is exclusively used as a field vehicle, I can't kill it. Currently has over 343,000 miles with no major motor/transmission casualties. Takes a'lickin and keeps on tickin.

I also own three Toyotas', a Yaris, Corolla & Highlander. They're good vehicles, but IMO not any better or worse than any current "domestic" brand. In this day and age so much of the automotive technologies are built under license and shared by multiple manufacturers.

There's no doubt that the U.S. auto industry turned out a lot of vehicles of dubious quality from the mid 70's through the early 90's.

Since most of the Toyotas' sold in the U.S. are manufactured east of the Rocky Mountains, I reckon they could be considered an import brand.

• Toyota Motor Manufacturing Mississippi, Inc., (TMMMS) is located in Blue Springs. Vehicle manufacture and assembly – Corolla, C-HR
• Toyota Motor Manufacturing Kentucky, Inc., (TMMK) is located in Georgetown. Engine manufacture – 2GR-FE and 2AR-FE. Vehicle manufacture and assembly – Camry, Hybrid Camry, Avalon, Avalon Hybrid, Venza, and Lexus ES.
• Toyota Motor Manufacturing Texas, Inc (TMMTX) is located in San Antonio. Vehicle manufacture and assembly – Tundra & Tacoma.
• Toyota Motor Manufacturing Indiana, Inc. (TMMI) is located in Princeton, Indiana. Vehicle manufacture and assembly – Sequoia, Sienna, Highlander & Highlander Hybrid.
• Toyota Motor Manufacturing Alabama, Inc. (TMMAL), is located in Huntsville. Engine manufacture 1GR-FE, 1UR-FE and 3UR-FE. Engines mostly for TMMTX and some TMMI.
• Toyota Motor Manufacturing West Virginia, Inc. (TMMWV), is located in Buffalo. Engine manufacture 2GR-FE, 2ZR-FE and 1AR-FE.

 

[idahoron]

Buy the truck you want-but don't use reliability to justify the purchase.

My statement was not based on old stereotypes of crappy American cars. It is based on what I have owned, and what my friends have owned.

Dependability, and function, that is about all I look at. If you can't trust the vehicle to be reliable then it is worthless. I have owned Chevy's, and there is two kids of Chevy's. The kind that has had the intake manifold gasket replaced, and the ones that need it replaced.
My Chevy's all needed transmissions replaced under 100,000 miles.

The fords I owned were full sized trucks and Rangers. They got poor millage and were not dependable. The Ranger was close to the lemon law. My ford cars left us on the side of the road multiple times. These cars had under 100,000 miles. My parents only owned fords. Their cars in the early 1970's were used up by 100,000 miles. People replaced them before the 100,000 mile mark because they knew they would break down. The Domestic made trucks and cars I owned were in fact unreliable.

Then I bought my first Toyota. It is a 88 xtra cab. I have 300,000 miles on it and it is my daily driver. I have owned it for 27 years and it has been reliable. When I am 100 miles down a two track on the desert I NEED and RELIABLE truck.
My second toy was a 96 4Runner. Again I still own that truck and I handed it to my son. Over 300,000 miles and it runs strong and is 100% dependable. I now own 7 and have given some to my kids and my wife has two and I have two trucks.

If reliability is not a part of the equation then what is important? Payload? what good is a ultra high payload if it is on a tow truck?
A friend of mine just bought a heavy duty 3/4 ton Dodge. It has less than 20,000 miles and he had to replace the transmission, and fuel injection system.
I know there are good and bad with all makes. But I have never had a bad Toyota and I have had 8 and still have 7 of them. One was hit by a guy texting and was totaled. We have over a million miles on the toys I own, and they are all good reliable vehicles.

Where I work we have a 1999 Ford F350. It has the 10 cylinder engine. It has right at 100,000 miles. The motor mounts have been replaced 4 times. The transmission was replaced once. The seat is uncomfortable to the point of being cruel and unusual punishment.

I just bought a 2016 4Runner trail edition. I bought it because of reliability and it fits a need we have for a small SUV that is dependable.
Resale value is without a doubt higher with Toyota and any of the others. I never sell mine but what that says is a lot of people need dependability.

I could NEVER buy another vehicle from the "Big Three". The price is higher than what I paid for my house and will most likely be worthless by the time it is paid off. I don't play that game any more.

 

[rotti]

Might consider a toy if they made a 3/4 ton truck. But probably wouldn't. I have had three 3/4 ton Chevys and have had excellent service from them under some extreme conditions and none of the issues you mention. It seems the new taco was rated worse or much worse for reliability by CR and there is the frame replacement issues and a plastic cargo bed.

Put me in the camp that believes payload matters.

 

[klahanie]

^ lol, that looks like some of the pics on the explorermagazin page that I think Tubel5000 was referring to. Safe to say more the owner's fault than the chassis. Not really a good reason to be concerned.

I view the whole truck and camper thing as a collection of "wants". For those who make a list, often by the third item there are competing conflicts with the first two. Some people want to buy a specific brand or model and that's their #1, everything else is secondary.

Now if you've had good, long term experience with a certain brand it makes sense to stick with it, all things being equal. We have a near 20 yo DD that's been an excellent car and a near 7 yo truck that hasn't had any problems.

As for mfr payload calculation, back in 2010 for their F350 with AT tires lineup, Ford offered a range of std GWVRs between 10,100 and 11,500#s (1,400# spread). Specific max std payloads ranged from 3760 to 4250# (490# spread). That's with same tires, same brakes and maybe just two rear spring packs (w or wo aux leaf). Six years later the GVWR range was from 11,100 to 11,500 (only 400# spread) and the payload spread had increased to 1250#. Again same tires, brakes. During that time Ram discovered a way of considerably increasing the GVWR for diesel equipped trucks within the same lineup. In short, mfrs can manipulate the ratings for their own reasons (probably to do with sales).

Last word on insurance. I've never had a mechanical inspection, post accident, but I imagine it is sometimes part of an investigation, presumably warranted if the accident was serious (serious injuries or death). I such cases overloading might be determined. Whether that effected insurance coverage or not would only be part of the repercussions... No one wants be the cause an accident, especially one that causes bodily harm.

 

[PackRat]

Wow....from a thread dedicated to the question of being OVERWEIGHT and what truck/camper combo works or not, it's now a Toyota vs. Detroit argument.

1) I doubt more than 1/10th of one percent of us will EVER take ANY kind of truck with 100,000-200,000 miles out so far in the boondocks we have to be worried all the time that our "Detroit Iron" will break down so that has nothing to do with this thread.
2) Reliability vs cost? If you buy a Toyota because a Big Three costs too much, then buy a Big Three that is less than three years old with under 20,000 miles that some other camper owner used infrequently and has all the bells and whistles.
3) This isn't about how wider trucks and/or campers will restrict where you go, hell, its a big country so if Back Road "A" is going to scratch your nice new $40,000 truck and $25,000 camper then maybe you should consider Back Road "B"?
4) This thread is asking the basic question about overloading any truck. The basic response is "Well, everybody does it!" but so what, that does not make it any safer or smarter or easier on the truck when you do that.
5) Just because "The Beverly Hillbillies" made it to LA with a very overweight truck does not mean it was a good idea, even if they had helper springs, sway bars, air bags and "E" rated tires on that truck. No offense, but the phrase "putting lipstick on a pig" comes to mind here.

OK, maybe after you load up for a couple weeks in the bush you run across the scales to check the GVWR and the weight of each axle you discover you are OVERLOADED on the rear axle but still under the GVWR you feel that is still safe that's your business. Maybe 100 or 200 lbs won't be a problem. Then again maybe you find you are 300+ lbs over loaded on the rear axle...and you have everyone blinking their lights at you as if you had your high beams on then maybe your rig is a little bit too heavy?

Maybe you have each axle right at it's load capacity...then you find out you are WAY over the GVWR...is that a good idea? My '88 F-250 4x4 has a front axle capacity of 3920 lbs and a rear axle capacity of 6084 lbs...but the GVWR is 8800 lbs. Hmm, if I weigh the front and find I am right at 3920 and the rear and am right at 6084....then I am now at 10,004 lbs!!!! that is 1,200 OVER the GVWR!

Bad Idea! So...back to the original topic... "Overweight: Your Perspective"....I think safety overrules all other considerations here.

By the way, if you do go buy a new truck and then add sway bars, spring leafs or different springs or air bags....have you just voided your warrantee from the manufacturer because I think over loading is a sure way to wear out brakes, is hell on transmissions and probably may be a cause for engine problems aside from standard recall issues.

Aside from all that....its your truck, its your camper its your safety out there on the highway and off the highway....make wise choices my friends!