Propane hell

Hey DirtyDog

The replacement propane tank (different style) just went out via UPS.

Let me know if that does the trick ?

I think it will.

Once I get a report back from you, we might be able to do the same for the Alaskan Snowbirds. Lets see if that is the problem and go from there.

:thumb:


We just haven't had any problems that we are aware of with the propane since that one week. We jumped on the problems right away, and now just need to get a couple of stragglers taken care of out there I guess. Unless we hear from the customers we can't fix this kinda stuff. Thanks for posting. We applogize for the frustrations.




.
 
Manchester Tank

Snow Hunter & DD,

I just looked at the propane tank in our camper and it has a little sticky on it that says "Manchester Tank". Don't know brand of the connecting nut/hose/tank fitting, it was too dark in the compartment for my old eyes to get it...I'll take a flashlight up next time. I'm guessing that since we and DD got our campers so close to the same time that we're twinsies on all that stuff but it would be good to find out for sure.

Our tank gauge reads empty so it's actually at half full or less. I fired up the furnace and it cranked up at the first click of the igniter and ran strong. I fired up both burners of the stove while the furnace was running and let both run for awhile and had strong flame on both. I should have fired up the hot water and frig too but I spaced the frig and the water system is drained so I didn't want to fire up the hot water. I may try the whole deal (minus hot water) later this PM or early in the morning when it's around 30 degrees or so out.

Sounds like FWC is on the case anyway...good man Stan! DD, we'd appreciate hearing what the final fix turns out to be.

Happy Trails!
'birds
 
Alaskan Snowbirds,

The mfr's might be used to systems that don't see those temporary voltage dips.

I'm planning on adding an alarm to mine down the road here so if I run into this issue I'll likely do some tinkering. However the batteries I'm running are 210ah with a resting voltage around 13.06V so I don't know if I'll see the same kind of drops that will trigger the alarm.

Knee is doing decent, I'm moving decently with a mild limp but get a "reminder" its still hurt at times if I am not keeping my movements inline with the current ability.
 
gas hose

Dirty Dog, I have had that exact problem about five times and fortunatly was able to change that hose with the green acme fitting at the tank and resolve the problem. I think a very small spider or dust can plug the hose with no problem at all. Marty
 
Hose Replacement

Marty,

Sounds like the same hose I have "...green acme fitting...".

I'd appreciate knowing where you got the replacement and brand/model if available so I can get one I'm pretty sure is going to solve the problem.

Have you been using it long enough to be pretty sure it's the real deal solution to the problem??

Thanks!
'birds
 
Same Problem

Dog, I've had the same problem a couple of times with my new (used) 2008 Hawk. (For Stan's info, my Hawk was manufactured in June of 2008.) I've only owned it for a couple of months now and it is in brand new condition. The previous owner only used it a couple of times. My symptoms have been the following:
1) Once I tried to light the heater and it would not light. I lit the cooktop and had low flow. My propane tank was somewhat low, so I thought I was out of gas. I turned off the main valve at the tank and then turned back on, and it made no difference. I was only on a shakedown trip a few miles from home. When I returned home, I turned everything back on and all was fine.
2) Twice now, I've turned on the tank and have had no propane flow to any appliance. I've then closed and reopened the tank valve a couple of times and everything started working just fine.
3) I had the tank filled completely and now I continue to have propane odor in the tank compartment. I've leak tested all fittings, the regulator, and all fittings and orfices on the tank and can't find a leak. Once, on the only camping trip I've been on so far, I had the propane leak detector sound an alarm. I had the back door open and the furnas had just kicked on. It was snowing and a little windy, so I think there may have been a wiff of propane from outside that set-off the alarm. After shutting the popane off, clearing the alarm and "sniffing" for odor, I could not detect anything. I turned everything back on and all was fine. After a couple of days of use, my tank is down about 1/4, and I am still smelling a slight odor in the tank compartment, even with the valve off and after sitting for a few days.

So, I'm continuing to monitor the situation. From this thread I gather there is some sort of systemic issue with a particular part. Stan, if you have suggestions for helping me out I would appreciate it. I will be using my camper in some pretty remote western state elk hunting situations this fall and sure don't want my propane system to fail me. BTW, I live here in Auburn, CA and have visited you at the plant before. If you need me to bring my camper in for any reason I can certainly arrange it.
 
mtnman/all...

Fortunately I have not had any problems after the initial (slow) start up of the fridge and have not experienced the low flow you speak of in my Hawk. (manufactured late june-July 2008)

However, I do notice the same slight odor of propane you speak of. I've had no alarms go off/etc., but when you open the door to the tank compartment after the tank has been turned on for an extended period you can definitely get a whiff. (I keep it off when not using the unit)

I'll be following along on this to see if there's a fix to be had/to see if anyone can isolate the problem/etc....if indeed there *is* a problem.

mtn
 
Yep, there is a problem

I decided to "test" my rig again today. I now have a very repeatable problem. Almost everytime when I first open the main valve on the propane tank, and then light the cook top, the burner lights and runs at full force for maybe 10 seconds. It then diminishes to a very minimal flame, but remains lit. It will continue to burn indefinitely at a very low flame. Obviously some gas is getting through, but very little. I've tried lightly rapping on the regulator, the Acme fitting and the tank valve with the wooden handle of my 16 oz finish hammer, with no success. I've disconnected the acme fitting, both with the tank valve closed, and with it open. This did not help either. Finally, I discovered that if I open and close the tank valve multiple times, I can finally get things working properly.

I have had this proplem occur almost everytime I've tested for it today. If I shut everything down, close the tank valve, then open it up and try to start my cooktop, the problem occurs. I then turn the cooktop burner off, open and close the tank valve multiple times, re-light the cooktop and eventually the problem goes away. Sometimes it takes multiple cycles of this to get the full flow of gas. Once I get the cooktop to maintain a burn at a high steady rate with both burners on high, I've lit my furnas, and my H2O heater and seem to have full gas flow to all appliances. I am convinced that the tank valve assembly is faulty, sometimes providing full flow, and other times not. BTW, my propane tank is about 3/4 full according to the gauge.

The slight smell of propane in the tank compartment is always there, even when the tank valve has been turned off for multiple days. It is very slight, but is still there. I've taken the tank out and done a full soap water test on everything and can't detect any leak. There must be an extremely small amount of gas being released from the pressure relief on the main valve, but I can't see any bubbles in my leak test.

Now that I've done all this complaining today, I must follow it up with saying that I absolutely love my new Hawk. My son and I spent two nights and three days in it a couple of weeks ago on our maiden voyage. It snowed on us the whole time we were out and the temp never got out of the mid 30's. We were completely comfortable and thoroughly enjoyed ourselves, even though the fish did not cooperate.
 

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look at the ACME fitting again. it has a check valve in it. this happens quite a bit it seems. I would bet the farm this is the troublesome part.

start by slowly opening the tank valve and do not try to run anything for a few minutes. this acme nut has an excess flow preventer in it too. just let the gas rest for a few and then try it......let us know
 
ACME did it!

Well, it's raining like crazy in Northern CA this weekend, and the engineer in me could not let this problem go, so nothing better to do than further troubleshoot this issue for the past couple of hours;) Came into my home office and fired up the computer to report my findings and found Mike's post. Mike, you are correct. Here's what I've done to isolate the problem to the ACME fitting / valve.

I started with taking the propane tank out and hooking it up to a portable BBQ with an old style propane hose that I've used for this purpose for years. The BBQ ran normal. I shut and opened the tank valve multiple times, with and without line pressure and could not get the problem to reproduce. Now, this is one data point that the tank was okay.

Next, I took a spare 7 Gal propane tank from my travel trailer and was able to lean it at a bit of an angle (still keeping it vertical) and attach it to the ACME fitting on my Hawk. When I opened the tank valve and lit my cook top, I experienced the same issue I reported in my previous post. I was able to "clear" the problem and then reproduce it by opening and closing the valve on the tank a few times.

Next, I removed the regulator assembly from my Hawk, and then disconnected the ACME fitting hose from the regulator. Upon inspection the regulator looked nice and clean. I then hooked up the ACME fitting / hose to my 7 gal tank and played with it by turning on and off the tank valve while holding my thumb tightly over the open end of the hose, and then releasing the pressure on the end of the hose. (Of course -no open flames in the garage and all doors open.) I could hear the valve in the ACME fitting cycling.

I then reassembled the regulator assembly, reinstalled the assembly in the tank compartment (leak tested all fittings), and retested. The system is currently working as designed. I was able to light all gas appliances and appear to have full flow. However, I don't trust my ACME fitting. The one that came with my camper has the green plastic knob, just as described by Duane / Susan.

Stan, did you get a bad batch of these?

Thanks,
Norm
 
Acme Fittings

It is still possible to get a standard propane fitting that will screw into the internal threads of the valve.
I got tired of fooling around with the Acme fittings on the stoves and heaters we use on river trips.
I found that at the high flows necessary to run these appliances that we had the same problems with low delivery flows. Replaced the Acme fittings and haven't had any problems since.
I have also found that the tanks with new style valves with pressure regulation have their own set of problems, they may be safer but can be a real pain if you need high flows.
Dsrtrat
 
Weber does it too.

I Googled propane problems and the first likely hit I had contained this:

Joe
TVWBB Member

forgive my spelling! I am trying to answer this between calls.

the hose you have has what is called an excess flow valve in it aka "bypass" valve. This device shuts the gas flow down to about 10% when the tank is first turned on. it is mandated by the govenment, we can't alter them (though we would love to get rid of them all together) it is basicly a pressure sensitve valve that takes full pressure on the hose side to open it all the way. from what you are describing, if you atach the hose to the pressure gauge and leave it for a few minutes the gauge should read pressure. BTW, the bypass valve is in the end of the hose where it ataches to the tank so there is a lot of hose that needs to pressureize before it has full flow even at the tip that ataches to the tank.

directions for ALL Q users. before you turn on the burner valve. turn on the tank at least one minute before you atemp to light the grill!

Hope this helps ya out!

If I wasn't an expert... They would fire me!
Seems like we're starting to get a consensus. Nice diagnosing mtnman!(Engineers are cool! ;o)

Stan/Chicali, you should take notes from this guy...blame the government.

I'm sure FWC couldn't supply the old non excess flow type hose/connection, or even recommend it, but I may see if I can find one that works and carry it with me just in case I have a problem when I really need propane. 'course, I'd never recommend that to anyone else! (CYA)

'birds P.E.
 
Tank/Hose Fix

dsrtrat,

I hadn't read your post on flow limiting hose/tank when I posted last (too close to the same time).

Some of the problems we've had were at high flow (frig, furnace, stove running on propane and tried to light hot water and flow was reduced). From what you found it sounds like that could have been tank, hose or both.

I don't think the old style non-flow limited tanks can either be purchased or filled anymore (true??) so, if it was the tank, even the older FWC's would be having problems?

If limited flow from the tank is a problem, connecting a second tank to a free flow "T" would reduce flow from each tank to half what it would be with a single tank and should keep the tank valve from limiting flow.

Running a second tank should also reduce the flows through the acme nut valve so that it doesn't kick in and reduce flows either.

Still could have hose problems due to blockage from dust/ice crystals etc., but having a second hose would probably help with those problems some too.

T-ing in a second tank is kind of a last resort, but if it keeps Dog from torching his rig it might be worth it :p

Happy Trails!
'birds
 
I don't think the old style non-flow limited tanks can either be purchased or filled anymore (true??) so, if it was the tank, even the older FWC's would be having problems?


I think my propane tank (99') is original don't know if this is before/after this limiting thing.
 
Something's not right...

I think what you say about the voltage falling below the preset limits is correct. It happens when the battery is below peak charge but still registers in the green on the factory installed monitor. When the furnace kicks on the startup load drops the voltage to the propane sensor below the preset limit and that starts the low battery warning cycle. Mean time, furnace is running at normal load and all is well when I check the battery monitor. If I reset (pull the fuse and put it back in) the warning goes off and the green propane sensor light goes on but the same thing happens 15 minutes later, all night long.


If you can still run the heater, then you have enough voltage - the heater won't light if the voltage is too low. The green LED, if I recall, is about 12.1 volts or above - that's plenty for the sensor.

It sounds like you have a faulty sensor or a wiring problem to the sensor. I have run batteries down to 11.4 volts (then the cut out switch kicks in) and never heard either alarm complain.

The first thing I would do is unscrew the sensor and make sure the wiring looks good - no loose connections, etc. If you have a multi-meter, check the voltage at the sensor next time it complains. Then check your voltage at the 12 volt outlet. The two voltages should be within 0.1 volts.

The 15 min delay is a clue that the problem may be the sensor. The sensor should have only a few second delay before complaining about low voltage as any motor turn-on drops the voltage for only a few seconds.
 
Voltage Check

Jack,

Thanks for the information.

I do have a multimeter and will check it. This should be a lot easier than the propane low/no flow to repeat and I can probably set it up to happen even with it sitting in the garage by running the battery down to 12.2 volts or so then fire up the furnace and sit there and see what happens as the battery discharges.

Happy Trails!
'birds
 
dsrtrat and Snowbirds,
Thanks for the additional info on the Acme fittings. The more the govt tries to protect the idiots of the world, the more difficult and expensive it is to manufacture and maintain useful systems. Oh, did I say that out loud? ;)

With our campers, even with all appliances running, I really doubt the gas flow demand would ever be an issue for the valve. Two cook top burners, the small furnas, the H20 heater, and the refrig (which draws very little gas) all combined, I'm sure would not "tax" the limits of the valve. However, that pressure equalization "function" could certainly be problematic. I think the suggestion to turn on the tank valve and wait at least 1 minute is a good one. Remember that regulator will continue to slowly consume gas until the secondary side of the system is pressurized. And, there is a fair amount of hose (volume) to pressurize. I can also see that valve being temperamental.

BTW, since I took my Acme valve out of the system and "played" with it by connecting to the stand-alone 7 gal cylinder, and then reinstalled in my hawk, I've not been able to repro the problem. Still, I think I'll follow your advice, dsrtrat, and purchase an old style hose to have on hand if needed.

Thanks for all the info.

- Norm
 
I think maybe this valve issue is what causes my refer to take so l-o-n-g to stay lit! I think I'll try leaving the propane on for 5 minutes -- instead of 2 seconds -- before trying to light the refer.
 
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