Snow Broke my FWC Hawk Roof

[Salmon]

Hey everyone, long time lurker, but this is my first post.

This is first and foremost a warning to others. If anyone can give me some ideas about what to do next that would be great too. I did a bit of searching but didn't come up with any better place to post this. If this is an inappropriate post for some reason someone please let me know.

The warning: DO NOT ALLOW SNOW TO ACCUMULATE ON TOP OF YOUR RAISED FWC ROOF! ROOF DAMAGE DUE TO SNOW LOAD CAN OCCUR!

As the subject alludes, unfortunately a snow load partly collapsed the roof of my 2019 FWC Hawk. The roof was up, and it was about an 8-10" snow accumulation when I decided I should go try to clean it off to reduce the load. I was up on a ladder with my long snow brush and I had already dragged a few swaths off the edge when the whole thing dropped an inch or two. I investigated and the side fabric seemed a little weird, like it didn't fit right anymore, but at that point I couldn't figure out what was wrong. I continued cleaning off the rest of the snow and when I went inside to lower the camper I saw that some of the internal roof structure (the lengthwise parts) had clearly broken or folded and were pressing downward on the headliner material from from above. I got the top down without further incident, and haven't really done anything with it since.

My Hawk is a 2019. I have aftermarket full-length Rhino Rack roof rack tracks and DIY aluminum tube crossbars up there, but that's it. I transported a canoe up there once (for about 60 miles on pavement), but the top was down the whole time. If anything, it seems like my roof tracks might have stiffened the structure and prevented the break from being even worse. The roof is still waterproof and all the visible components are still intact - it seems that just the internal structure is the only damage. With the top down I'm able to latch everything and it all seems roadworthy. I'm not really sure yet how to go about repairing it or getting it repaired. I'll reach out to FWC directly and see what they say but haven't done so yet. Anyone seen this before? Are there any threads on FWC roof structure repair? I found a bunch of threads about people speculating about snow load issues, but unfortunately for me I have gone beyond the speculation stage.

I will say that I believe there would not have been a problem if the roof had been down. The break occurred almost exactly mid-span between the front and rear end supports. If the top had been down the longest span would be side-to-side which is much shorter, and the support across the front and back would have further strengthened the span in the side-to-side direction. Maybe that goes without saying, but I'll mention it anyway in case it helps someone out there.

 

[CreekRob]

Yikes. Sorry about that. Snow is the Achille's heel of popups for sure; I've had issues with other popups. Let us know what you find out.

 

[Wandering Sagebrush]

Wow, I’d like to say welcome to WTW, but your first post is saddening! I’m sorry that happened to you! It sounds like the ribs in your roof have broken, which probably means a new roof, although it might be possible to sister new ribs along side the broken components. It could be the aftermarket tracks that are the villains.

In addition to speaking to FWC, I recommend giving Marty Austin (ATC) a call to see if that is something he would take on. IMO (with no proof), I believe the old style roofs are stronger than those that are not screwed down. I do know that neither of my two ATC campers have had issues with a roof that made oil can noises.

I’m happy to have you as a fellow member, but sure wish I could offer a more joyful greeting than replying to a broken roof post.

Edit: another thought. It might be that your ribs are only bent. If that’s the case, it might be repairable by upward pressure at the bend. Minds greater than mine should determine if that’s the case.

 

[Casa Escarlata Robles Too]

Also a welcome.Marty would be a great choice,if he is allowed to work on late model FWCs.
A call would give you some helpful info.
Frank

 

[Salmon]

Thanks for the replies and suggestions! I'll add Marty to my list of calls to make Monday. For what it's worth the camper and I are currently in New England.

 

[buckland]

Hello current fellow New Englander. If this occurred from the last snow storm (we got 10") it was one of the heaviest cement snow I have ever plowed. I am so sorry about the roof. Hope that the results after inspection prove repairable.

 

[K7MDL]

The description sounds like the longitudinal support may have broke at the welds with the front cross frame tube. Going to have to take the roof off and flip it over, remove the headliner and look for and repair the damage. If you are handy, you might be able to peel back the headliner up front and inspect the tube welds there. It may have only dropped the 1 inch or so because the middle cross tubes are still intact. If so you might get away with leaving the top installed and from inside the camper just weld the visible 3 sides of the broken welds and put the headliner back.

 

[pods8]

The description sounds like the longitudinal support may have broke at the welds with the front cross frame tube.

That is what I was thinking if its near the end, I've been studying frame photos lately and don't understand why the center strut is boxed in by ~2x1 on the sides to reinforce it but the others are just butted up to that same ~2x1 (the OLD designs were worse!). I was thinking in my head the box them all in when I weld up a roof and this post is reaffirming that thought.

Here is a photo from ski3pin's ATC camper build but when you look at FWC stuff it appears the same (at least the media I've seen).

 

[trexoffroad]

Oh wow! Thats scary for sure!

I am finally reassembling my roof and I can tell you it’s not an easy task. The one piece roof skin (if that’s what you have) is difficult to find at best and terribly expensive in my opinion. I purchased mine from FWC and thankful they helped me out. Other sources I found were not painted and shipping was crazy. I did have to go pick mine up.
Those longitudinal rails are not very strong. At all. IMHO. I’d never ask this roof to support anything other than the exhaust fans and a small solar panel.
I’d be interested in seeing yours and where the damage occurred. Mine was damaged by something overhead by previous owner. I had to completely strip it to repair.

 

[Wallowa]

That is what I was thinking if its near the end, I've been studying frame photos lately and don't understand why the center strut is boxed in by ~2x1 on the sides to reinforce it but the others are just butted up to that same ~2x1 (the OLD designs were worse!). I was thinking in my head the box them all in when I weld up a roof and this post is reaffirming that thought.

Here is a photo from ski3pin's ATC camper build but when you look at FWC stuff it appears the same (at least the media I've seen).

Pretty certain the frame members on the top/lid of my '16 Hawk are all straight pieces and not curved like the ATC in photo....or I am confused, always a possibility! All snow is not created equal and I have had 1ft + before I could clear it, no issues noted....get a mix of rain and snow and you are *******.

 

[Salmon]

Hey everyone, thanks for the comments. I know this thread is a bit old now but I'm sure there is some interest in this situation for someone. I ended up having some life distractions and was out of state so the camper just sat as it was until now, and I'm finally ready to tackle this. I had an illuminating conversation with Marty as several of you suggested, and based on that talk I now believe that a near-complete roof replacement is basically what I need to do. First I'm going to cut the headliner back and try to splint the break from the underside, which I'm hoping will be just a temporary solution for the non-snow season. What I'd consider a proper repair (which I believe will be as good or better than original, but certainly won't LOOK original) will probably cost upwards of $3800.

After looking some more at the roof, I believe that my aftermarket roof rails actually did contribute to the damage. They are rhino rack T-slot universal base rails, but from what I remember the longest I could get was 80" or something like that so I bought 3, and each side has about 1.5 rail sections to make a full-length rail. You can see that the break of the FWC roof structure occurred almost exactly where the two sections meet. So I'm now thinking that those rhino rack rails stiffened the rest of the roof and concentrated the stresses to the point where ultimately broke. I don't believe my flimsy T-slot rails was a major contributor to weakening the roof but it seems that it had at least enough of an effect to result in disaster this once. Just speculating now, but I might have been ok if I had staggered the roof rack seams from side to side, or I might have been ok if I had experienced this same snow load without any roof rack additions at all. Or, I might have just accelerated the already-inevitable collapse due to having the roof up with such a heavy snow load.

Lessons I've learned from this whole experience:
1. The roof is much more vulnerable than I thought and considerations should be made to protecting it, because repairs are EXPENSIVE and if I had been on a trip this would certainly have messed up my plans!
2. A roof rack on a camper like this is not really as useful as I thought it would be. In 2+ years of ownership I've only used it a handful of times and I didn't really NEED to (I mounted a temporary additional solar panel for one trip, I tied some light tarps to it in camp a couple times, I transported about 20lbs of long poles on top one time, ...) That one canoe transport was the exception but I could have probably just strapped it onto the top somehow.
3. Adding anything on the roof alters the structure of the whole camper and should be avoided for that reason.
4. The one-piece glued roof has several well-documented disadvantages but is also kind of nice in hindsight, as there are very few places for leaks from the top to develop. Any drilling of holes or mounting of things up there helps to nullify the few advantages offered by that design.
5. If at all possible, lower the roof anytime a heavy snowfall occurs. Better safe than sorry.

Anyway, I'll go try to make my temporary repairs and I'll follow up to let you all know how it goes.

 

[Wandering Sagebrush]

Hopefully the temporary fix gets you through the no snow season. Assuming you have ATC do the repair, it will be stronger than original, and you’ll have many years of camping fun.

Thanks for the update!

 

[Wallowa]

Still I am baffled why your roof bent "in two" from any load on the top sheet. Has any other FWC had such a failure? What was FWC's speculation as to why this damage occurred? Very distinct failure pattern should point to a definitive cause. Notwithstanding that the top is only supported on the front and back ends this folding in the center seems unique.

If any other FWC owner has had such a failure of the top, please post your observations as to the why and how.

I can't see how 8-10" of even "Sierra Concrete" should not have buckled the top. Defective construction?

Sorry you have to go through all this, good luck and please keep posting.

Phil

 

[Salmon]

Hey Phil, maybe I can explain a little better. I'm certainly no expert and I'm sure someone reading this is way more educated in this stuff than me, but I have a fair amount of experience looking at and determining modes of failure of various things in my day job so I feel I have a semi-informed perspective. I may be jumping to conclusions that aren't at all apparent from the pictures and descriptions I've put out so I'll try to explain more thoroughly what I'm seeing and thinking.

On the inside, I cut away some of the headliner (under the assumption that my temp fix will be a frankenstein affair anyway and all this stuff will be replaced when I get it properly fixed) and it became much more clear what happened. Looking at the close-up it appears that the lengthwise supports are roughly 1" square aluminum tube (left-to-right in the close-up picture). The crosswise pieces are round tubing with some slightly-less-than-1" diameter. I can't tell if there is any additional strengthening anywhere but it doesn't seem likely from what I can see.

Forgive me if this is insulting anyone's intelligence or education but just to verbalize what I know about this stuff (and maybe someone can correct me if I'm wrong - my one strengths-of-materials class was very long ago): If you have a long piece of uniform material (like a virgin length of square aluminum tubing) and you apply a bending force to it, the material will start to bend into a mostly-uniform curve from end to end. The outside of the bend will all stretch and the inside of the bend will all compress and the forces will be spread over the entire length, and the material won't fail (crack, etc.) until the whole piece is very close to failure at every point along its length. However, if you modify the uniform piece in some way (drill a hole in it, weld or unevenly heat it enough to affect the metallurgy, change its shape somehow, thicken part of it, etc.), then it is no longer uniform and any bending forces will tend to concentrate somewhere. Meaning a certain point will absorb more of the overall force. Since this is generally occurring at a structurally weak point, it may end up being stressed beyond the point of failure even though the rest of the material is still well within its elastic deformation range (meaning a bend from which it will completely return to original shape).

What it appears FWC did was to take that long square tubing, either drill a hole or maybe notch the top to insert that round tubing, and therefore create a weak point in every lengthwise tubing every time it intersects a crossbar. They then drilled a hole from the bottom and riveted through the square tubing wall into the round tubing. That rivet and associated hole probably increases the rigidity and helps resist the roof racking (i.e. becoming unsquare) and holds the whole thing together during the construction process, but it also further reduces the amount of square tubing material that will be in tension when a weight pushes down on the roof with only the ends supported. Although it's weaker than it might otherwise be, it must still be adequately strong under most situations or we'd hear about roofs breaking all the time, so please nobody take this as me bashing FWC construction. I'm just observing and commenting on the structure as objectively as I can. I think we all probably know there are stronger campers, and there are cheaper campers, and there are lighter campers, and FWCs are at a very popular intersection of those and other considerations.

So if those were the conditions of my roof as constructed, I inadvertently made it much worse by adding my roof tracks. First, I just added more material up there and fastened it well, which stiffened my roof making it less bendy, therefore more likely to break with less deformation (although the stiffening probably did increase the roof's ability to handle a point load). Second, I installed the roof tracks in two sections, creating a precise point of non-uniformity between the two sections of track. Third and worst, by dumb luck I positioned that weak point almost exactly on top of one of the internal roof crossmembers which as I pointed out is an inherently much weaker point in the roof (compared to the sections between crossmembers, even 6" forward or back from that point). So when all that snow accumulated on my roof, the weight started pushing down and those two sections of track and created effectively a fulcrum between two long levers. The bottom surface of the lengthwise square tubings (thinned out by the notch cut for the internal crossmembers, further weakened by that rivet hole) became in tension, and the end result was those thin strips of remaining aluminum failed and broke.

When I talked to Marty he told me that he only advocates TIG welding for camper roofs because he thinks it's a better way to do things (paraphrasing - hopefully I'm not misrepresenting Marty at all. If I am it's certainly not intentional). He didn't bash FWC's construction either, by the way - we just talked about how he likes to do things. For those who don't know, TIG welding is just one of many welding processes and has pros and cons like every other process, but one of its potential benefits is that it allows for independent control of heat, filler material, and other weld parameters. This makes it POSSIBLE to minimize the negative impact on the strength and uniformity of the work piece in the hands of a skilled fabricator, but even the best welds alter a material's uniformity to some degree. In other words, in my educated opinion a welded roof is not inherently stronger than a fastened roof. It just has different pros and cons, and a roof of any kind of construction could potentially be either too weak or sufficiently strong depending on whether it's adequately engineered and constructed to the requirements of the materials and processes used. Marty sounds like he prioritizes making strong roofs more than he prioritizes low-profile and low(er)-cost and - I assume - probably slightly lower weight flat riveted-and-glued roofs like what comes out of the FWC factory, and I agree with him that that's what I want to replace my failed roof with, but from what I can see THESE ARE ALL TRADE-OFFS and no type of construction is universally "better".

Ultimately I think my roof failure is my own fault. I COULD have known all these things and avoided the situation I find myself in, but I made assumptions and didn't do my due dilligence. I should have. For those who are now terrified that they are on the same path to certain roof doom, I have some thoughts:
1) If you have an unmodified FWC roof and are thinking about installing a roof rack or roof tracks, maybe just consider carefully whether you really need one at all. It's really high up there and difficult to get things up and down, it further increases windage on an already un-aerodynamic setup, it makes it harder to get snow or leaves or whatever off, any weight on the roof makes the roof harder to raise and lower (sometimes significantly harder), in most cases installation will involve drilling holes in a place that doesn't have great drainage and will become a possible water entry point forever, it will probably increase the chance that a branch or road sign or something will catch and do major damage rather than slide harmlessly off if you ever misjudge overhead clearance on something, and anything up there adds weight in the worst possible place for vehicle stability.
2) If you already have a roof rack and realize it has some of the same weaknesses as my setup, The best thing to do is probably just never load your roof unless it's down and latched. If you put a canoe or plywood or whatever up there, just take it off before you raise the roof. Lower the roof if it snows. I think that precaution alone would have made this a non-issue.
3) If you have a factory-installed roof rack, maybe check it out and see if they took these considerations into account. If the tracks are continuous and terminate equidistant from the crossmember forward and behind the track end, it probably strengthens the roof overall.
4) If you're reading this cautionary tale and planning to install a DIY track anyway, just be very sure you are aware of where your tracks will end in relation to the roof structure weak points.

 

[Wallowa]

Wow...great evaluation and photos....my degrees are in bio ocn so engineering is way out of my league....I do not remember in my '16 Hawk if round transverse tubing was used...thought all rectangular stock...but viewed '23 construction and there is that silly round tubing....notched into rectangular longitudinal members...notching must create a stress point in rectangular struts.. encourage you to post your info on forum..

I have a '16 Hawk with factory Yakima rails, two vents and two solar panels mounted to the rails...Zamp 160 and 170 w...about 50lbs total...only issue so far is my old age straining to push top up and slow descent...and oil canning in heavy winds..secure attachment for my panels, but you are correct, each screw is potential leak point..

Did you ever forget to unbuckle a top latch and try to raise the top? I did, right front side latch....Stan says this is a common one to miss, even at factory...felt like a fool, but using a FWC technique and a piece of 2x4 bent that corner back down...was up about 3/4 inch..

Got appts today but interested in continuing this dialogue if you are OK with that....also how long was snow load on roof? Wind? How dense was snow [water content]? Our snow here in NE Oregon and E Washington is light weight powder unless it rains on snow...

Tough, tough problem to deal with but I for one would go with a new roof...

Never understood folks loading top with canoes, kayaks, storage boxes as that stresses the top but also raises the CG higher on the camper... when off road this makes a big difference...we are about 80% off road folks..

Phil

 

[Wandering Sagebrush]

Salmon, thanks for the update! Nicely written, hang in there.

 

[pods8]

Your analysis and unfortunate dumb luck noted here sound extremely likely in my mind. "Third and worst, by dumb luck I positioned that weak point almost exactly on top of one of the internal roof crossmembers which as I pointed out is an inherently much weaker point in the roof (compared to the sections between crossmembers, even 6" forward or back from that point)."

If you have some skill I would think you could repair it for alot less than $3800. If that is having ATC or someone do it then yeah the labor could add up.

 

[Salmon]

Got appts today but interested in continuing this dialogue if you are OK with that....

Sure, I'll offer what more I can. Prior to this incident, the truck and camper was parked in my yard as I didn't plan to use it for several months. I had been leaving the top up and occasionally opening the windows and door on nice days to air things out and hopefully avoid mold and mustyness (my biggest concern, until the roof broke, lol). After being out of state for a 2-month period, I checked the camper and noticed a 2" layer of "snow" that had melted and/or been rained on and then re-frozen and was basically a 2" sheet of ice with lots of air bubbles in it. I kinda got a little concerned about the weight as that seemed like a lot and for some reason I thought melting or wet snow like that would have slid off rather than accumulate in my absence. So I cleared that off and checked everything out and all seemed fine. A few days later we got a big, long, heavy wet snowfall. I went out at 6am with the idea of lowering the roof, but found it was so heavy that I didn't want to try for fear of damaging something or myself. Using a snow brush I cleared what I could reach (probably 80% of the roof had 1" or less of wet snow on it). After a day of general snow removal all over my property I went back to the camper to find 8-10" accumulation of about as wet of snow as is possible. I climbed back up there and started dragging snow off with my brush, and basically during that process saw the whole roof (so it seemed) drop about an inch or two. Of course that alarmed me, so I stopped what I was doing at the time and tried to figure it out. Basically my efforts to that end are reflected in my previous posts, leading to my latest conclusions.

I appreciate everyone's encouragement and it's awesome that this community is so supportive when someone experiences some misfortune (mostly self-inflicted, in this case). Personally, I'm honestly not too upset about it. Sure it's a bummer and a not-insignificant financial blow, but the way I see it most of us don't NEED a FWC. I am sure there are exceptions and I don't want to demean the significance of this stuff for anyone, but at least speaking for myself, the camper is a choice we made about recreational pursuits. It's far from the cheapest or most economical way to travel/camp and it represents a choice I/we made about what to do with our disposable income. In other words it's kind of a toy (for me). I should have taken better care of it and/or recognized its limitations, and I'm paying a price for not doing so. But I'll be ok. At this point I plan on replacing the roof eventually. The fan and vent and lights and all the hardware are all re-usable, and probably the exterior trim as well. The structure and headliner I'll need to replace, as well as the roof skin. For now I'm going to attempt to splint the broken roof members and seal the couple small tears in the roof skin and just go camping.

 

[PaulT]

Forgetting to open one of the roof latches is too easy. Having made that mistake, I settled on placing a small piece of bright orange duct tape inside each latch. I then walk around the truck twice counting bright orange spots. If I count 6 bright spots each time, it’s safe to raise the roof.
When breaking camp, truck walk around should display no orange spots. Just find a method that works for you.

Paul

 

[Wallowa]

Just an FYI...as I remember...FWC rated the maximum roof load to be 1,000 lbs....I assume that varies with differing models that have differing surface areas..

Salmon...yikes, ice followed by dense snow...the distinct failure line does to me denote either as you speculate the weakening of the top along that line induced by your placement of roof rails...or a design/material flaw in the FWC...looking at how the round strut is cut into the rectangular support just does not look right; seems that would induce a weak/failure spot...

Has anyone seen this failure pattern before???