Thacker Pass, Quinn River NV

teledork

Pinyon Jay
Joined
Aug 26, 2017
Messages
583
Location
eastern sierra
One of the last acts of the 45th president was to provide a "fast track" for desert mining operations. The Thacker Pass area (North of Winnemucca) is slated to be turned into a lithium mine. There will also be a processing facility to turn sulphur (which is removed during the refinement of gasoline) into sulphuric acid in order to extract the lithium from the clay soil of the valley floor. The entire operation may eventually cover as much as 17,000 acres with the chemical processing plant, tailings piles and several open pit mines. The quantity of lithium that is present in the clay is so small that more trucks will be bringing in sulphur than bringing out lithium.

I leave these links here as I think they do a better presentation than I can.

https://www.protectthackerpass.org/

https://www.stoplithium.com/
 
I even just donated to the fund. Might even take a drive out that way when the weather heats up. #45 did this type of thing allot in the last few days and especially liked to rewrite the rules and bury true believers deep in the system! It will take time to find them all.

Smoke
 
Smokecreek1 said:
I even just donated to the fund. Might even take a drive out that way when the weather heats up. #45 did this type of thing allot in the last few days and especially liked to rewrite the rules and bury true believers deep in the system! It will take time to find them all.

Smoke
I know the guys who have been camping out there for the past three weeks otherwise I probably would not have known what was happening - though I was aware that just about every valley in NV is being eyed for lithium production. I suspect I'll be headed that way soon to bring supplies and some reinforcement.
 
Stray Dog said:
interesting article Sunman. Looks like lithium has a big future. Guess it has to come from somewhere. Maybe we can get it from China?
If I may jump in here for a moment:
Top six lithium-producing countries in the world in 2019

  • Australia – 42,000 tonnes. Australia is by far the world's top producer of lithium, with an output of 42,000 tonnes in 2019. ...
  • Chile – 18,000 tonnes. ...
  • China – 7,500 tonnes. ...
  • Argentina – 6,400 tonnes. ...
  • Zimbabwe – 1,600 tonnes. ...
  • Portugal – 1,200 tonnes.

https://www.nsenergybusiness.com/features/top-lithium-producing-countries/


All of the lithium mining that has been done up to now is old lake beds/salt flats or hard rock mining. Extracting lithium from salt flats requires astronomical amounts of water (brine) to float the lithium to the surface. Hard rock mining of lithium requires chemicals to separate the lithium from the ore. Chemical "spills", polluted water, square miles of dead everything are a typical result. Extracting lithium from clay, as the Thacker Pass mine would do, requires both astronomical amounts of water (which will then be toxic) and chemicals (sulphur) which will be trucked in and converted to sulphuric acid, the remaining material dumped on the site for eternity.

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/lithium-batteries-environment-impact

The big rush to mine lithium is to provide batteries for so-called "green" electric cars. Mining and extraction of lithium requires fossil fuels (the Thacker Pass mine will use at least 10,000 gallons of diesel each day) The manufacturing of these cars require fossil fuel. The manufacturing of solar panels and wind turbines requires fossil fuel. The destruction of the land to place these solar facilities and wind "farms" also results in loss of the use of public land and death to plants and wildlife. There are also a number of rare earth minerals required for solar and wind, the mining of which requires fossil fuels and commonly produces dead land and dead people (often slave labor) Hydropower is likely to become back in vogue - also a user of fossil fuel to construct and resulting in dead rivers.

Edit to add: my sister just reminded me that nuclear power is also back on the table.

If this is "green" it is a putrid shade - like the early stages of gangrene. In reality it is no less deadly to the land base, plants and wildlife and eventually suicidal for the human race than the widespread use of fossil fuel.

This book is due to be released next month:
https://www.monkfishpublishing.com/products-page-2/forthcoming/bright-green-lies/

“This disturbing but very important book makes clear we must dig deeper than the normal solutions we are offered.”—Yvon Chouinard, founder of Patagonia Works
We need a different answer.
 
I hate seeing any land destroyed especially beautiful places (I guess they are all beautiful) but if we as the US are going to use these precious resources then we need to be destroying our own land for them and living with the direct results. Not some other possibly nameless 3rd world country with no environmental protection or human rights laws that nobody can see so nobody thinks about it.

For those that care about the environment it is a hard decision to make and it goes beyond just a mine. Those interested in money... not so hard.

On a side note led acid batteries are 90% recyclable and the process is widely adopted. Lithium is still relatively new but hopefully we will get there soon.
 
The hydro power in the PNW is not considered a renewable resource. Long ago in Oregon, we collectively killed the Trojan nuclear power generator.

There are wind power turbines being installed all over Oregon as wind is considered to be a renewable resource. One should investigate the life of these wind turbines. How long does a wind generator last and how are the blades recycled? What is the lifetime cost to birds and bats due to the presence of a wind turbine? What are the downwind impacts due to the wind disturbance? What is the net impact on the rotation of the earth caused by each turbine multiplied by all the wind turbines already installed and to new ones planned to be installed?

How long will solar panels actually last at an economically viable energy production rate? How are the used panels to be recycled? What is the impact of installing solar panels on land? Will loss of oxygen production become an issue? Installation on existing buildings will be insufficient to produce the energy demanded.

Mandating the termination of fossil fuel powered vehicles in favor of EV's should not be considered a net plus for environmental impact unless the generation/collection of the electricity required to power them is taken into account.

As there are environmental costs to every energy resource, before subsidizing any new "green" energy source, ALL lifetime costs should be learned and compared to other sources.

Paul
 
PaulT said:
ALL lifetime costs should be learned and compared to other sources.

Paul
Exactly.

I had a first generation Prius for 16 years, pre lithium but nickel mining is not "better". I bought it because I was commuting 120 miles a day (ironically to work for an environmental organization) It was very expensive for one thing but if I had known then what I know now about the impact (beyond my income) I would have purchased a different car or found a different job (easier said than done)

The questions we need to ask and the answers we need to consider are always gong to be difficult.
 
Kolockum said:
(snip) but if we as the US are going to use these precious resources then we need to be destroying our own land for them and living with the direct results. Not some other possibly nameless 3rd world country with no environmental protection or human rights laws that nobody can see so nobody thinks about it.
(snip)
Yes. But I fear that not enough people know, love or care about the western deserts - much like a 3rd world country.
 
Good discussion on this topic.

Nice to see the benefits as well as the negative impacts to the environment and the plus/minus of the economics involved. Typically public discussions focus on the benefits of the new tech and never consider both sides of an issue.

The planet runs on fossil fuels and will for probably the remainder of all of our lives. New tech holds much promise and should be pursued agressively considering all of the positive and negative impacts.

In the end what drives all of this? Economics purely and simply. Whether or not we like it, we all make our choices based upon the economics involved. When these new technologies are economically viable considering all other impacts involved they can be expected to replace fossil fuels. But not until then....

speaking of impacts:

https://www.wind-watch.org/news/2009/10/07/wind-turbines-are-killing-condors/#:~:text=The%20fact%20is%2C%20in%20recent,at%20wind%20farms%20in%20California.&text=At%20Altamont%20Pass%2C%20where%20nearly,farm%20is%20the%20turkey%20vulture.
 
I spent almost 35 years working directly with these issues. Though it is hard to sum up a lot of heavily nuanced issues, let me try:

Current tech:

- hydropower in the west should be considered renewable, but for historical reasons is not. And even if it were so designated, very few human endeavors have changed the natural environment the way hydropower has. (placeholder for very lengthy discussion if anyone is interested)

- oil & gas have done so much to benefit society while damaging the environment in numerous ways. Interestingly, peak oil (that moment when hydrocarbon production has reached its' apex but due to diminishing supplies will only decline in the future) has been carefully forecast more than 20 different times - those forecasts ranged from the 1970s for peak production to some undefined point in the future. (placeholder ... blah blah blah... as for hydropower)

- wind power is only economical due to tax subsidies. Two obvious ironies: First, during the hottest and coldest times, when we need electricity most for airconditioning or heating, wind velocities are very often right around zero, thus no generation. Second, for almost two decades I repeatedly asked wind power 'experts, regulators and owner/operators' what sort of reclamation bond had been set for recycling the wind turbines and towers and for site restoration and end of life. All I ever got was blank stares. (placeholder for roads, birds, blah, blah, blah... for wind power)

- hard rock, or unconsolidated sediment mining in the arid west has never, ever, in any place restored environmental damages created by mining, though the societal benefits are usually considered by decision makers to be worth it. (Insert very long placeholder with thousands of specific examples of mining impacts)

- nuclear power: good thing if you can figure out what to do with the waste -- which is still awaiting a solution.

- solar - I don't know enough about this industry to really talk about it.

Bonus: Most folk do not know that cement production is responsible for ~8% of all CO2 emissions by humans.

Bottom line: let's enjoy what remains, try to protect what we can, and do a bit of restoration if at all possible. Other than that, hold on tight and try not to get thrown off this crazy modern societal merry go round we have all had a share in building and growing.
 
AWG_Pics said:
I spent almost 35 years working directly with these issues. Though it is hard to sum up a lot of heavily nuanced issues, let me try:

Current tech:

- hydropower in the west should be considered renewable, but for historical reasons is not. And even if it were so designated, very few human endeavors have changed the natural environment the way hydropower has. (placeholder for very lengthy discussion if anyone is interested)

I have wondered if smaller scale could be less destructive but still economically viable.

- oil & gas have done so much to benefit society while damaging the environment in numerous ways. Interestingly, peak oil (that moment when hydrocarbon production has reached its' apex but due to diminishing supplies will only decline in the future) has been carefully forecast more than 20 different times - those forecasts ranged from the 1970s for peak production to some undefined point in the future. (placeholder ... blah blah blah... as for hydropower)

Yes. the changing "peak oil" date is interesting. I've suspected that the rising cost of fuel and use of alternatives (at least for electricity) resulted in less consumption.

- wind power is only economical due to tax subsidies. Two obvious ironies: First, during the hottest and coldest times, when we need electricity most for airconditioning or heating, wind velocities are very often right around zero, thus no generation. Second, for almost two decades I repeatedly asked wind power 'experts, regulators and owner/operators' what sort of reclamation bond had been set for recycling the wind turbines and towers and for site restoration and end of life. All I ever got was blank stares. (placeholder for roads, birds, blah, blah, blah... for wind power)

IMO wind power is a loser all the way around because of the reasons you have mentioned. The most heartbreaking issue is the bird mortality. I grew up in the San Jose area - we'd go out on Altamont Pass and find carcasses.

- hard rock, or unconsolidated sediment mining in the arid west has never, ever, in any place restored environmental damages created by mining, though the societal benefits are usually considered by decision makers to be worth it. (Insert very long placeholder with thousands of specific examples of mining impacts)

What? You mean those pretty scenes on the TV ads put out by the Nevada Mining Association are propaganda? (snark)

- nuclear power: good thing if you can figure out what to do with the waste -- which is still awaiting a solution.

- solar - I don't know enough about this industry to really talk about it.

About a 15 year lifespan on PV panels - ironically about the same amount of time it would take to recoup your investment on a self contained system. It is an expensive way to produce electricity. No recycling of the panels currently. The panels need to be washed - a problem in the desert. The largest solar facility (Ivanpah/ Bright Energy) is not PV but reflectors that concentrate sunlight (and fry birds in flight) to heat a substance in a tower which creates steam to drive a turbine They also use natural gas.

Bonus: Most folk do not know that cement production is responsible for ~8% of all CO2 emissions by humans.

I had heard but promptly forgot that fact.

Bottom line: let's enjoy what remains, try to protect what we can, and do a bit of restoration if at all possible. Other than that, hold on tight and try not to get thrown off this crazy modern societal merry go round we have all had a share in building and growing.

And that is it. This is the culture we have which is why I become frustrated when someone demands perfection - such as I shouldn't complain about automobiles and fuel since I use one. But we need to do better if we want to enjoy, or even simply live in the world we have.
Yes. I am interested. Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
 
teledork said:
Yes. I am interested. Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
I am struggling to find a way, other than a pedantic rage/rant, to share what bits of knowledge I have gained. It is popular to talk about a problem, but then end on happy note of unicorns and rainbows. I can't and won't do that. Seems false. So for the time being I am struck dumb. But I am thinking hard about how to speak/write clearly and effectively about these topics.
 
teledork said:
One of the last acts of the 45th president was to provide a "fast track" for desert mining operations. The Thacker Pass area (North of Winnemucca) is slated to be turned into a lithium mine. There will also be a processing facility to turn sulphur (which is removed during the refinement of gasoline) into sulphuric acid in order to extract the lithium from the clay soil of the valley floor. The entire operation may eventually cover as much as 17,000 acres with the chemical processing plant, tailings piles and several open pit mines. The quantity of lithium that is present in the clay is so small that more trucks will be bringing in sulphur than bringing out lithium.

I leave these links here as I think they do a better presentation than I can.

https://www.protectthackerpass.org/

https://www.stoplithium.com/
We were in that area this Dec and Jan passing thru 3-4 days...going either S. or N. what a beautiful area> its unfortunate that everyone wants lithium. I I will read your attachments thanks hoop
 
AWG_Pics said:
I am struggling to find a way, other than a pedantic rage/rant, to share what bits of knowledge I have gained. It is popular to talk about a problem, but then end on happy note of unicorns and rainbows. I can't and won't do that. Seems false. So for the time being I am struck dumb. But I am thinking hard about how to speak/write clearly and effectively about these topics.
Environmental writer Derrick Jensen told a story of a journal publisher asking him to end a piece on the destruction of the planet on a happy note. He turned the job down.

And as I was falling asleep last night I was thinking about hydropower and recalled the small hydro push in the late '80s - early'90s?(subsidy driven if I remember correctly) There were several proposals on small streams in the Yuba River drainage. And I can't believe I almost forgot the plans for just about every stream that enters the N. Fork of the Kings river, including the main stem. This area is now wilderness but was not at that time. We were nearing the end of a two week backpacking trip and were puzzled by the sight of a man in a white shirt, carrying a briefcase, climbing out of a helicopter in a meadow. Then we were horrified when he told us why he was there.

Or the recent proposal to pump water to reservoirs in wilderness above Bishop, CA, to "store" the "power", plumbing the south facing wall of Pine Creek to release the water to drive turbines. That part of the project was withdrawn but not the part which would do the same in the canyons on the west slope of the White Mountains - but I do not know the current status.

I have to admit I fear another push for hydro - big or small. But one of my concerns is when projects are labeled "green", such as the Bishop example, which encourages people who do not have the time or desire to look any closer to just say, "oh, okay".
 
Clarify a point made by AWG who states that wind power is only economical due to subsidies. That is true for nuclear, oil, hydro, . . . Consumers have never directly paid the full cost of their energy. Government has subsidized most forms of energy including nuclear, coal and oil in a variety of ways. Nuclear had been the most heavily subsidized form of energy unless you add the costs of popping up friendly governments in oil producing countries. Heck, even the wood I heat with is subsidized by the federal government. I buy a permit for five dollars a cord to harvest firewood in Coconino NF which is way below market value if all wood was privately owned.

One of the attractive features of wind and solar for some is the decentralization of energy production. Nuclear, oil, natural gas and coal tended to centralize production and control of electricity.

Peak oil keeps changing due to several factor including cost of oil, cost of extraction and technology. Oil fields do not go dry. Either the oil becomes too expensive to pump or the technology does not permit more to be pumped. Change the price and more oil is available. Change the technology and more oil/gas becomes available (see natural gas and fracking). Over time, any specific technology tends to do down in price.

As economists say “there is no free lunch”. No matter what form of energy you use, there are costs, both direct and indirect, to pay. Among those costs is damage to the environment.

As many environmentalists have noted on the years, the problem isn’t just how we produce energy, but how much energy we use. In the US, energy production has largely been in the private hands. Profits are driven by use, not conservation or limiting use.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top Bottom