The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly

yooper

yooper

Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2013
Messages
11
Location
Wilson,Wy
Hello All,

Just joined the forum. I have been lurking for a week or so and finding a lot of good info on campers. I plan on purchasing (financing) a FWC hawk this spring but I am really on the fence when it comes to options. Not exactly sure what I should go with. A fully optioned out sounds awesome but expensive. I am looking for some opinions on what is worth having and what is not. I know everyone likes or needs different stuff but i'd like some idea as to whether some things are worth the money. Fridge or ice box, pros and cons of either? fridge fan? sink, water heater? installed stereo or do it myself? front opening window, is it convenient ? side awning, worth the extra $? Furnace, how effective, noisy, or needed? I am really wondering whether I should get the shell and add as I find out I want something or just go balls out and have it all now. I hope this is not too much for one post. An opinion on anything is appreciated and thanks in advance for humoring the new guy.
 
thanks for the info I've been looking through the different posts but didn't know exactly what to search for

That's not to say that there aren't fresh/new opinions/suggestions on options, too. There are some options available now that weren't available previously...or the type/model of -- whatever -- option is different now.
 
That's not to say that there aren't fresh/new opinions/suggestions on options, too. There are some options available now that weren't available previously...or the type/model of -- whatever -- option is different now.



I hear ya, like most things these days a new whatchamacallit is right around the corner, materials and tech get better and better. I've never owned a camper before so I'm trying to make some very economical decisions before I put my name on the dotted line. The furnace is one of the things I really wonder about needing( it does get pretty cold in wyoming even in the summer nights). my dad has a 28 foot coachmen trailer and the furnace runs alot and is pretty noisy on cold Michigan nights. I don't mind using a sleeping bag. I like the idea of most of the options but wonder if it will be money well spent or just a novelty/ PITA.
 
RE Forced-air Furnace: Yes, it is noisy and uses significant battery power to run that noisy fan.
FWC-Stan says that newer versions (newer than the one in my 2005 Hawk, anyway) are quieter and use less electricity (maybe that just means it uses a less-powerful fan..
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).
A lot of people get by -- and are happy doing so -- using a catalytic heater instead of the forced-air furnace. The winter a year ago I spent camping without a working furnace, relying solely on my Wave 6, and that kept the camper as warm as I wanted even when outside temps dropped down to low-single-digits (F). Even now, with a working furnace, I don't use it overnight, relying on my Wave (on low) to keep the camper warmer-than-outside.
(There have been discussions about the safety of using a catalytic heater in the camper...worries about depletion of O2, build-up of CO...but I've done it dozens of nights, and haven't died yet, AFAIK.
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Proper venting is the key to living with a catalytic heater. And you might want to be sure your CO-detector/alarm is working -- mine is.
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)

Where/when it's nice to have the forced-air furnace is to heat things up quickly, such as first-thing-in-the-morning. I really do swear by my Wave cat heater...but it doesn't heat up the air of the camper quickly, since it's radiant without fan.

I spent many years -- decades -- camping in a tent and/or in the canopy of a pickup, and I had no heater at all for that style of camping. But -- in the winter in the high desert of OR/NV -- that also meant I had to retreat to my sleeping bag much earlier in the evening...or sit in the cab of the truck with the heater/engine running. Personally, I need/want some kind of heater for comfortable winter camping -- now that I'm in my golden years...
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I just checked out that wave 6 on amazon and it seems like a really good option for heating. the pure quiet of off road camping is one of the most enjoyable parts of it so that seems like a good way to go. Do you have yours mounted on the wall or is it just free standing/ setup as needed? I appreciate the suggestions.
 
I just checked out that wave 6 on amazon and it seems like a really good option for heating. the pure quiet of off road camping is one of the most enjoyable parts of it so that seems like a good way to go. Do you have yours mounted on the wall or is it just free standing/ setup as needed? I appreciate the suggestions.

I have mine free-standing (I bought the optional legs), and I have it connected to the propane plumbing of the camper with a rubber hose (tee-ing off the line to the stove), so I can move it and point it where I want in the camper. I bought the hose and propane-plumbing-fittings from the propane dealer (think "King of the Hill"
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) in Bishop, CA, so I felt safe using them for that application.

I should point out: Though I have the Wave 6 -- and I'm glad I have that powerhouse for winter camping -- most people who've posted here about their Waves seem to have the smaller Wave 3 and seem to be satisfied with it...even in the winter. I don't think there's any downside to having the heating power of the bigger heater, but it is significantly bigger and that is a consideration in the relatively cramped space of our campers. Some/most/a-lot of people have their Wave 3 wall-mounted, some on a swing-out panel so that they have some ability to point it.
Maybe if I wasn't solo in the camper 99% of the time, if I had another body competing for floor-space in my camper, then I might want the more-compact heater, the Wave 3...and maybe with another body in the camper I wouldn't need the larger heater.
 
Fridge or ice box, pros and cons of either? fridge fan? sink, water heater? installed stereo or do it myself? front opening window, is it convenient ? side awning, worth the extra $? Furnace, how effective, noisy, or needed? I am really wondering whether I should get the shell and add as I find out I want something or just go balls out and have it all now. I hope this is not too much for one post. An opinion on anything is appreciated and thanks in advance for humoring the new guy.


Frankly I'd either go a 12v compressor fridge whether that was FWC installing it or myself, I would not waste my time on an ice box or propane fridge. I enjoy a sink. On our size rigs I don't bother with a water heater (I'd just warm up some water on the stove if it was needed, takes up too much space). Hell-no on the stereo, why would you dedicate money/space to a permanent install when they have affordable and good sounding portable speaker sets for mp3 players? I really like forced air heat to quickly warm up the unit, I don't sleep with it on though as it would cycle too much with the soft sides.

If you go a shell you might want to consider having a propane locker installed (if you're not comfortable cutting holes later) and the same if you choose a furnace. Pre-planned locations for water in/out and power in would all be useful too.

One thing not mentiond, spring for the screen door now. You can't add it on later w/o replacing the whole door.


RE Forced-air Furnace: Yes, it is noisy and uses significant battery power to run that noisy fan.
FWC-Stan says that newer versions (newer than the one in my 2005 Hawk, anyway) are quieter and use less electricity (maybe that just means it uses a less-powerful fan..[URL="http://www.wanderthewest.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/huh.gif"]http://www.wanderthewest.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/huh.gif[/URL][/img


Yes it does, the atwood 8012 pulls 1.8 amps supposedly verse 3.4ams of the other ones. Its a front discharge only heater (ie no ducting options) due to the lower power fan. Overall that is only what is needed in our size campers, the other units are just a waste of electrical power.
 
I have a little bit different philosophy, build it the way you intend to use it if you can afford it. I wanted to be able to leave the factory and be able to spend the night in it no matter the weather conditions. Before picking up our Grandby the Friday before Christmas we camped 3 to 4 times a year mostly between May and the end of September. Since we've had the camper, we've camped in the desert South of Joshua Tree, in the snow above Shaver Lake, along the coast at Dillon Beach on Tomales Bay and Plaskett Creek South of Big Sur, and Anderson Woods just North of Guernville along the Russian River. We have two trips planned in April.

We went round and round about how to equip it and researched for maybe 4 to 5 months before placing the order. Basically we decided if it is to be used in the camper, it's built in - stove, sink, furnace, hot water heater, water pump, outside shower, 2-way fridge, solar panel, 2 deep cycle batteries, arctic pack, roof lift assists, Yakima racks, fan-tastic fan, screen door, and front dinette. I've added a roof assist crank for my wife if she uses it by herself since.

There are a lot of guys here that do some great custom work. I'm pretty handy with tool and have to be because my house was built in 1938 so there are plenty of projects. I didn't want my camper to be a project. I wanted to be able to use it from day one - add food and cloths and toys and go.
 
Regarding the heat, I'm in the process of switching from a Wave 3 to forced air right now.

When it's below 20 or so, the Wave 3 isn't as comfortable as I'd like. When it's single digits or zero, it's tough to spend much time in the camper without getting under your sleeping bag. I realize there's some personal preference involved, but I'm no spring chicken anymore, and my girlfriend likes to be comfortable, so a forced air heater makes sense for us. Having the place heat up quickly will be especially nice (pulling into camp at night to cook dinner and have a glass of wine in comfort, without waiting for things to heat up...).

If I was to keep using a Wave for winter camping, I'd probably be happier with the Wave 6 for CO/WY mountains (and anywhere north) and Utah desert. But another issue with those heaters is condensation. You battle that by venting, but of course that lets some heat out. I never figured out a great way to do it in cold temps, and our walls/ceiling were often lined with a layer of frost. You can still have condensation with a forced air heater, but the moisture that comes as a by-product of propane combustion gets vented outside instead of hanging around inside with you. Plus you've got moving air and more BTUs.

You're not supposed to keep propane inside the living space with you (tanks can leak). So the propane box is a good idea if you intend to be safe (or at least some plan for how you're going to handle propane and/or decide if you're willing to just risk it). If you've got a Wave 3 or whatever else, you'll need propane somewhere.

Regarding the shell/build or go big option: I pretty much went the shell route. Adding things later costs more than it would have if you had the factory install them, and depending what choices you make (where the couch goes, if any) you may make certain options impossible. Overall I'm happy with how I did it because things are configured in a way that I like. But it costs more and takes more time to do it that way.
 
As with life campers are a compormise. Some of my customers swear by their shells while others want every option. Consider when you do your camping. If you're always in the desert and/or always in the spring and summer consider an after market heater. you don't need to take it with you and when you do venting a non OEM heat source can be as simple as opening the turnbuckle ports and cracking the roof vent. If you are already carrying a camp stove why not use it.... Carfeully and with caution after all the products of it's combustion are no different than a built in unit. They both need venting indoors. If you already carry a table (we use a resin table we bought at COSTCO) it can be used in the shell. The dish pan you use outside can be used indoors as well. Chairs used outside can be used inside. Minimalist like Gene and Phill carry as little as possible in their shells. Pam and I have the room and carry what makes us comfortable for the trip we are going on. Weekends require less than 2 weeks in Baja.

There are 3 things I always do recommend;
1. Jacks & brackets. Unless you plan to leave the camper on full time. At the very least brackets.
2. Auxiliary battery system. Ours (ATC) is $375. It comes with a 75 amp hour AGM battery and an isloator. Bought separately the battery alone is in the $150 to $200 range and you don't have to wire it all up.
3. Solar pre-wiring. You can always install the panel later.

Some items are just really nice to have. The vent over the "galley" area is standard equipment but a powered fan over the bed is amazing on hot nights. We've been in 95+ temps and it really cools you down. If you are 6' plus the added 2 inch height option is very nice to have. The bed extention allows the 2 of you to sleep north/south so you don't have to crawl over one another in the middle of the night.

If you do opt for a shell, adding another large side window on the drivers side is a real luxury. It gives you tons of light in the camper.

Worth considering is putting a long bed camper on your short bed truck. The amount of room you gain is wonderful.

Most importantly you're going camping. The idea is to spend as much time out of doors as the weather allows. Otherwise you'd buy a 45' motor home, park in a paved park, turn on the satellite TV and pretend you're home.
 
There was a post a while back, something like "What is the one feature of your camper you would not want to do without?" Something like 8 out of 10 respondents wrote that they would not want to do without their forced-air furnace. It was considered "essential" more than any other option.

The other thing to consider if you are financing, by including the options in the build you will spread that cost across the length of the loan. This will give you what you want now for probably only a small amount more per payment. And some things are difficult to add later.
 
Everyone will have a "system" that is just right for them. I was going through the same process and had pretty loaded up camper spec'd ($26,000 delivered to Alberta) out just before I came across a used one. The used one was clean, and good shape for a great price ... so many of the choices were made for me!!!

I was hunting with my G/F in the Rocky Mountain Bighorns in the Canadian Rockies and sleeping in a utility trailer with my girlfriend when it came to me. "I have had enough of this!" Not the hunting, but being uncomfortable when I do not need to be! She was grumpy and so was I. If mama aint happy ... no one is happy. So the camper was an easy choice! She is way more tolerable with heat and a steaming hot cup of coffee n baily's in the AM!

I friend of mine who camps with a travel trailer made an excellent point. He said " You are going the truck camper for the extra comfort and convenience, go with the options you think you might use and enjoy"

This philosophy worked for me. I have to say, the forced air furnace, water pump/heater, 3 way fridge, outside shower is great! I am more relaxed after a long day outside. For me ... it is so nice to wake up to hot running water, and a stove inside to make coffee, and a furnace. BTW did I mention the shower!!!!!!

I still spend lots of time sleeping in a tent or under the stars .... coming back to my Hawk with its "appliances" is so nice!!!!!

Some of the things that I do not wish I had is the stereo (I portable for $50.00 lets me take it outside) solar, I have the rear flood lights which I do not really use.

I really like the furnace, water pump, hot water heater, Awning, shower, 3 way fridge, (Those damn fridges are so expensive!) LED may be an upgrade later ... but I have yet to run out of battery.

Mine even has AC. I did not want this initially, but I must say I do use it when I have access to power and mostly at home when I am getting the Hawk ready or cleaning it after a trip. I would probably scrap this if given the choice in order to make room for a jerry can.

Although I have not needed it yet. I think a roof rack of some sort may come in handy.

Have fun with plotting and planning your new purchase. That is half the fun. Please be sure to tell us what you come up with!
 
Thanks for all the advice. I'm pretty well sold on the furnace and fridge. As for some of the other stuff I.e.( water heater/shower, awning). Does the water heater take up a lot of space? How effective is the awning? Would it keep a light rain off my head while cooking or sittin in a chair whittling or would it be better to just bring a tarp and make a leanto?
 
Thanks for all the advice. I'm pretty well sold on the furnace and fridge. As for some of the other stuff I.e.( water heater/shower, awning). Does the water heater take up a lot of space? How effective is the awning? Would it keep a light rain off my head while cooking or sittin in a chair whittling or would it be better to just bring a tarp and make a leanto?


I will suggest again, for the money go 12V compressor fridge. The cost difference is nothing when starting from scratch. Folks swap out their propane units in favor of compressor fridges even, that say's something... I see very little upside to the propane units. They run a long time on a little propane but that is about it. The compressor fridge needs battery power but you can get solar panels cheap these days...


Mine hawk had a catilina awing, you could sit under it in the rain no problem. That said I'm going the chinsle sail track route on my build I think.

I think hot water heaters are something like 12"x16"x16", they're a decent size chunk of your cabinet space.

P.S. You from the UP? (your user name)
 
From my perspective, the awning is well built. I always try to remember to dry it out upon my return home. Where I camp rain is almost always a concern. I keep my dogs in their kennels under the awning over night and its a place for them to find shade. Any time I camp the awning is always deployed. Great to keep the rain and sun off. I kind of which I had awnings on the driver side and the back door as well. I hate the heat!!!!

I do not know any difference with the space that the hot water heater takes up as it has always been there. I have always been a backpacker and I simply transferred my back packing stuff to my Hawk. I have not wished for more space. For me, when it comes to that hot shower at the end of the day before bed ... the space is not wasted. If I did not have the shower ... I might consider nixing the hot water heater as it is just one more thing to worry about breaking and winterizing. This said I would not go with out my current shower/hot water set up.

Of interest, I also use the shower to do my dishes out side, wash off the dog, rinse pots etc. Lots of uses for the outside shower other than hygiene. Correct me if I am wrong but I think that the hot water heater and the outside shower come together.

If I ever make it down to CA with my outfit I will likely go to FWC and ask them to fit awnings all the way around and a roof rack.
 
I can't put myself in your shoes but since we are in similar climate zones, the Rockies, I'll give you my $17,000 worth:

Factory furnace - yes - a must in the Rockies
Sink, stove - yes
Frig - yes - two way electric compressor
Screen door - yes - almost impossible to add later
Dual batteries - yes
Arctic pac - yes - come on, you live in Wyoming, but easy to add later
Fantastic fan - yes - but could add it later
Front opening window - I didn't get it but.....I miss it
Hot water heater - nope - easy to heat water on the stove
Shower - nope - use a bug sprayer
Awning - nope - easy to add later
Radio - no way - better alternatives out there

What kind of lucky truck is going to get this 1,300 lb bundle of fun?
Note: My experiences only.....yours I'm sure may differ.
 
"I will suggest again, for the money go 12V compressor fridge. The cost difference is nothing when starting from scratch. Folks swap out their propane units in favor of compressor fridges even, that say's something... I see very little upside to the propane units. They run a long time on a little propane but that is about it. The compressor fridge needs battery power but you can get solar panels cheap these days... "

MT45 $825 including shipping for WTW members.
 
....fridge... I see very little upside to the propane units. They run a long time on a little propane but that is about it. The compressor fridge needs battery power but you can get solar panels cheap these days...

That is about it...but that's HUGE!
Well -- it's significant.
I switched to a 12-v compressor fridge when my 3-way fridge coolant system ruptured...but doing so basically forced me to add solar. (I sometimes camp several days in one spot so can't always rely on truck-alternator-charging-while-driving to re-charge the camper system). Having one cheap energy source -- propane -- to power refrigerator, stove, and furnace is not a trivial advantage....ummm, IMHO.
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