Unvented Gas Heaters

[John D]

The Buddy Heater, Olympian Wave, and other heaters are being brought up in the forum regularly. Apparently, they are nice devices which provide heat efficiently and relatively inexpensively. To the best of my knowledge, these are unvented heaters. Though combustion is very efficient, do they have unhealthy combustion byproducts nevertheless? I would like to read a discussion of the subject.

I am old enough to remember gas space heaters at my grandmother's house out in the country. Maybe modern gas heaters don't have bad combustion byproducts, but I suspect they do. My grandmother said it was not a good idea to leave them on all the time. She used unvented gas heaters in a limited way, to heat a bedroom or a bathroom on a cold morning, for changing cloths or bathing. But the heater was cut off when people were sleeping, hence the stacks of quilts on the beds.

At times, the gas space heaters were used in a day room for long hours. Whenever one entered a room where one of these heaters had been on for several hours, it was obvious that the air did not smell good, there was moisture on the windows, and it seemed unhealthy.

Therefore, I am for unvented gas heaters in limited use but I am against them for long periods and definately I would not sleep in a camper with an unvented gas space heater running. Does anyone disagree? I am open to changing my mind if I am wrong. _John D

 

[Stan@FourWheel]

I think if used properly, they might be OK for short periods of time.

Most customers I have talked to over the years that do use them, usually only have it on at night and turn if off before going to bed. And then turn it on again when they wake up to take the chill off. They also make sure they have a couple of vents open to allow fresh air flow.

But I worry that there are people that won't use them properly.

There are many sharp people out there, and they they are a few people that won't have the street smarts on when, or when not to use this type of heater.

I talked to one guy a few years back that was running one (something like a black cat catalytic with the screw on green propane bottle). He woke up in the middle of the night really cold. The heater had gone out sometime in the middle of the night. His first though ... "it must be out of propane?". He unscrewed the bottle and attached a new, full propane bottle. He proceeded to get his lighter out to re-light the small propane heater. Strange he thought ... "why won't my lighter "light" ?. He got another lighter out and tried that one too. It didn't work either ??

OH !!! No oxygen.

The little heater had burned all of the oxygen inside.

He opened the doors and windows for a bit.

He was very lucky that he did wake up.

It was probably safe to say he never left the little heater running all night again.


.


.

 

[craig333]

I'm with Stan on this. If you want/need heat while you're sleeping, get a vented heater. I know theres some who say its fine, but do you really want to risk your life? I carry a little buddy, but use it inside? no way.

 

[Dughlas Stiubhart]

Little Buddy heaters (unlike Coleman Cats) have an automatic shut-off when the O2 level gets low; they shut down before the oxygen levels become fatal for humans. And if the O2 remains low, they will not relight.

That said, I've been using a Little Buddy for years but never sleep with it on! I have a warm sleeping bag for that.

 

[John D]

Stan,

My space heater for camping is a friendly woman. I was telling my heater your story about they guy who used up all the oxygen in his camper with an unvented space heater. She liked the story and it made me start thinking, maybe my heater is dangerous too. Running out of oxygen could be welcome relief compared to what she could do to me if I fail to use her properly. Actually, that is another subject.

More on point here, there is another discussion going on right now about buddy heaters and trouble with them at altitude. The Hydro Flame furnace, a vented RV furnace, was apparently used on a Mt. Everest expedition. Does anyone know details on that story? Do you suppose a reason for using a vented heater on Everest was to avoid reducing oxygen even further in the rarefied high altitude of the mountain?

_John D

 

[chnlisle]

John,
Did your heater remain congenial during the recent truck troubles?

My guess on the Everest thing is since even the humans need to artificially supplement they're oxygen there might not be enough O2 to run a heater but hey most of my life was spent at sea level so its just a WAG.

 

[John D]

As we pulled in the driveway, she said, "After 40 days in a broken down old truck and a little popup camper, we are still speaking. Good trip."

 

[home skillet]

OK, I have to throw my 2 cents in here. First off, John D. Can you get one of the those heater partners at the local Bi-Mart? (wouldn't that be nice). Anyhoo, I have been using a wave 3 catalytic in my camper for 3 years. I do have an electric heater too, but it requires 110 hookup (don't say it, I know). So the sole source of heat is the wave. I do make a habit of turning it off before I doz, but the key to any catalytic heater is a fresh air vent. This means cracking a window. The makers recommend a 1" X 8" crack for every 5000 BTU. If this is done......the heater is safe. If this is not done........peaceful passing ensues.

Now, I am building a new camper right now and am going to stick with the catalytic heater system. However, I am upgrading to the Olympian because it does come with a well tested and proven O2 shut off sensor. I for one have a great amount of trust in these and I think if used properly and with a fresh air vent of some kind, then pretty hard to get into trouble.

On the "death by deoxygination" cases. I will bet that we could look up a dozen ways people have died in campers from other systems simply because they were dumb. Can you say "Darwin" or "thinning of the herd"?

 

[DirtyDog]

OK, I have to throw my 2 cents in here. First off, John D. Can you get one of the those heater partners at the local Bi-Mart? (wouldn't that be nice). Anyhoo, I have been using a wave 3 catalytic in my camper for 3 years. I do have an electric heater too, but it requires 110 hookup (don't say it, I know). So the sole source of heat is the wave. I do make a habit of turning it off before I doz, but the key to any catalytic heater is a fresh air vent. This means cracking a window. The makers recommend a 1" X 8" crack for every 5000 BTU. If this is done......the heater is safe. If this is not done........peaceful passing ensues.

Now, I am building a new camper right now and am going to stick with the catalytic heater system. However, I am upgrading to the Olympian because it does come with a well tested and proven O2 shut off sensor. I for one have a great amount of trust in these and I think if used properly and with a fresh air vent of some kind, then pretty hard to get into trouble.

On the "death by deoxygination" cases. I will bet that we could look up a dozen ways people have died in campers from other systems simply because they were dumb. Can you say "Darwin" or "thinning of the herd"?


I don't think your wife is as stoked about your unvented gas as you are

 

[John D]

Skillet, I clicked over to the FWC web site to check out their forced air automatic furnace, $495. If I were ordering a new camper, I can't see how I could go wrong with that option. It makes no sense to mess around with unvented heaters when a real forced air furnace is not expensive (compared to the assumed risk of using an unvented heater).

No question about it, that friendly woman is by far the best heater. She has a great sleeping system comprised by a light weight sleeping bag and a heavy sleeping bag that are zipped together. When we are making up the bed, my heater asks how cold it is forecast for the night and she puts the appropriate weight bag on top. If it is really cold, we have a nice thick comforter to go on top of that. Because I am bald, my heater provides three different sleeping hats to choose from. We open windows appropriately for the camp and weather. That system is one of the best parts of camping. I can't think of many things more pleasant than sleeping with that setup in 50 degrees with the windows open. If you don't have this type of heater, I strongly recommend you get one because it makes all the other details of which type of RV, etc, entirely insignificant. (And by the way, my heater has a nickle plated S&W model 10 right next to her side of the bunk. This is her heater.)

Electric quartz heaters: not quite on subject, but we carry a Pelonis Basic at all times. I think they are pretty safe. The only concern is placing it too close to something flamable. If we are leaving it on all night, we might put it on top of the stove, for safety, and where my heater can reach the switch on it.

Cook stove (unvented): If you light the cook stove, this will heat up the inside of the camper very quickly. I like to bath every day. Especially in cool weather, warm water makes the bath very pleasant. I boil a pot of water on the stove while I am getting undressed. I pour this in a quarter bucket of water, which makes warm bath water to use with soap and a wash cloth. Shut the stove off and dry with a towel. Having bathed like this for 65 years while camping, I see no need for a shower in my camper and I would not have one. When on a camping trip, there are other bath options to take advantage of, depending on the situation, all very much part of the pleasure of camping. (If I could not live without a stand up shower, I would probably stay home.) Back to the subject.

In conclusion, please consider not using unvented gas heaters, especially inside tiny campers. _John D

 

[Dughlas Stiubhart]

Electric quartz heaters: not quite on subject, but we carry a Pelonis Basic at all times. I think they are pretty safe. The only concern is placing it too close to something flamable. If we are leaving it on all night, we might put it on top of the stove, for safety, and where my heater can reach the switch on it.

Cook stove (unvented): If you light the cook stove, this will heat up the inside of the camper very quickly.

In conclusion, please consider not using unvented gas heaters, especially inside tiny campers. _John D


John D,

I too use a 110 quartz heater when (not often) I'm on shore power during the winter and there are no fumes produced so running all night is no problem. As you say, putting it in a safe place is important.

Running the cook stove unvented is not very safe, however. They put off more dangerous fumes (CO for one) than a propane catalytic and have no auto shut-off when the O2 gets low. If you want to run the cook stove for heat, I would be sure a window and a roof vent are open.

Stew

PS: I think I saw your FWC/ATC being rebuilt in early 2007 at the ATC shop. Is that correct??

 

[home skillet]

Thanks for the thoughts John D. You have a valid point with the forced air heater being so affordable. I will give some thought in my current build. My only concern is that it is a bit of space pig and the fuel consumption to BTU output isn't as good as a catalytic. Hmmmmm. I'll give it more thought.

 

[Barko1]

As long as the Wave heaters have O2 your fine. I keep the side window cracked, a top window the same, and the vent open a bit and let the heater run all night. $500 for the other heater isn't bad but they consume DC and waste a lot of heat out the exhaust. The thermostat heaters are more convenient than a Wave but the Wave beats it on small/simple/efficient/quiet.

 

[Dughlas Stiubhart]

As long as the Wave heaters have O2 your fine. I keep the side window cracked, a top window the same, and the vent open a bit and let the heater run all night. $500 for the other heater isn't bad but they consume DC and waste a lot of heat out the exhaust. The thermostat heaters are more convenient than a Wave but the Wave beats it on small/simple/efficient/quiet.


Barko, is your Wave wall-mounted or on legs?

Stew

 

[craig333]

Don't let fuel efficiency stop you from getting a forced air heater. They really don't use that much. I don't fill my tank more than once a season.

Even with the forced air heater I still leave a vent open, just to help vent any moisture.

 

[home skillet]

As long as the Wave heaters have O2 your fine. I keep the side window cracked, a top window the same, and the vent open a bit and let the heater run all night. $500 for the other heater isn't bad but they consume DC and waste a lot of heat out the exhaust. The thermostat heaters are more convenient than a Wave but the Wave beats it on small/simple/efficient/quiet.


Do you think the wave is better than the Olympian?

 

[banderswipe]

I am thinking about becoming a Moron so i can legally have more than one space heater. One for the camper and the one I already have that doesn't like camping. Unfortunately the one I already have might use my Remington pump on me.
Life is never easy.

Cheers.

Kevin.

 

[MarkBC]

Don't let fuel efficiency stop you from getting a forced air heater. They really don't use that much. I don't fill my tank more than once a season.

Even with the forced air heater I still leave a vent open, just to help vent any moisture.

Yeah, I agree about the built-in forced-air heater. It may not be the most efficient, but that's not a practical problem -- a 5 gal propane tank still lasts a long time. A bigger issue for me is the electricity needed to run the fan. That is a significant drain and an issue if you're in one spot for more than a couple days and not re-charging the battery.

Since the combustion in the built-in furnace isn't connected to the camper interior at all (it draws oxygen from outside and exhausts outside) it doesn't require any open windows/vents.

Do you think the wave is better than the Olympian?

The Wave (3 or 6) is a model of the Olympian company.

 

[John D]

Stew,

Yes, our Keystone was rebuilt by ATC. We bought it from them, sight unseen, after they had rebuilt it. We could not be happier with it and it has served us well camping all over the lower 48, Canada and Alaska. One thing ATC did which some folks would be interested in was modifying the floor pac so this older model Keystone (about 1985 model) would fit later model trucks. We are currently driving a 1999 Ford F-150 with a 60 inch wide opening at the tailgate. This rebuilt Keystone fits, or I should say, the truck fits it like a glove. Anyone wanting to modify an older camper to fit modern trucks should contact Marty at ATC.

Interestingly, the Turtle Expedition used a Keytone on one of their expedition trucks. Apparently, they modified their truck so it would fit their older Keystone. That is not a bad idea because the beds of all the trucks I have measured are wider at the front than the tail gate opening. I gather the Turtle Expedition folks wanted a snug fit over its full length of the camper, perhaps for greater security and flexibility. I think I will open a new thread on that.

Back to the subject of unvented gas heaters; our gas cook stove started me thinking about the danger of unvented heaters. When we use the cook stove (for cooking or heating water), I am very aware of the fumes and the heat. Without a vent, the cook stove quickly makes the inside of the camper warm and stuffy. A vent is obviously needed, unless the weather is quite cold or the stove is on for just a short time. This is why I wrote what I did because an unvented gas heater is nearly the same thing.

A good way to use the forced air gas furnace is to set the thermostat to about 50 degrees. It will come on only a few times during the night. This will normally not run down the battery and will provide enough heat to keep the moisture out of the camper. It really does add to the comfort factor, to sleep in a dry place. When shore power is available, the quartz heater provides the same benefit. I don't think an unvented gas heater is quite as effective in driving moisture out. However, I could be wrong about that and I wish someone with a lot of experience with unvented gas heaters would comment.

Kevin,

I agree, only a moron would sleep with two women, both armed with shotguns. You are a brave man. Check your post, was the use of the word Moron a Freudian Slip?

John D

 

[Barko1]

Barko, is your Wave wall-mounted or on legs?

Stew


Sorry for the delay, on the road. Mine is on the optional legs and connected to where the old furnace connected but with 6' of flex line propane hose. It sits on the floor when traveling and I just rotate it into the aisle in front of the door when I need heat. I have been using it regularly this week,in the Canadian Maritimes, and and pleased with it. Fires right up, no sounds, and I have been running it all night and regulating the internal temps by how much venting I open. I think it says it is 99% efficient so I feel fine keeping it warmer in here. Hasn't been all that cold, not freezing but quite cool, some daytime 40's, and wet. With the conventional unit whenever I heard it running I'd worry about 12v consumption, now I just stay toasty
Doesn't seem to be draining the propane. And at these temps it has only been on low, it starts warming things up right away but I think full heat takes a bit to develop.