Why Can't The FWC Owners Get This Information ?

[Wallowa]

Stan,

Thanks for the thoughtful and detailed response to the inquiry. Overwhelmed is overwhelmed; understood. Don't sweat my previous requests for photos of a Hawk being constructed with my options. As in the past, when and if I have need of specific information, I will contact you for that information and your insights. You folks have certainly been forthcoming in the past.

Make no mistakes, you, your staff and Jeff in Tigard have been first rate in helping me with my questions and producing what I believe is an outstanding product...to paraphrase...I am indeed a "happy camper".

Phil

 

[Happyjax]

Well I have to say I am surprised at the fact that the building of the campers is that fluid. I do not know much about how they are built beyond what I have learned here, but I would have thought that the framing for a model would be pretty consistent unless there was some major add or delete. Same with the wiring. Guess I was mistaken....

If there are differences between each camper than it could be difficult to keep up with the documentation necessary to be handed out. I think many of us here like tinkering, modding and repairing and want any info that will make that easier.

I do know that several folks got lots of pictures sent during their builds as I gleefully watched them posted and enjoyed seeing how the process took place, Mr 3pins being one of the 1st I followed

So those of us who hunger for the knowledge to make our campers are own (if we ever get one....) and can be frustrated by what may seem to be a lack of willingness to share build info may need to take a step back and realize that often it is more of a time and manpower issue. I now understand that is part of the situation.

Thanks to Stan for taking the time to pass along info and to all who work hard to produce our beloved campers...(if I ever get one....lol)

 

[DYNOBOB]

I wouldn't look at it like FWC owes us a "service manual" for our camper anymore than Dodge owes me a factory service manual for my truck. Maybe it could be an option like a fridge/furnace/awning when purchasing. Let the customer decide if they want it.

.

 

[craig333]

I'd love to have some pics of the frame stage. No need for detailed drawings and dimensions. Now if I had it to do over again, being local I should have just gone out and done it myself. It is interesting just how fast it all changes. Of course even if I had the pics, drawings etc, I'd probably have misplaced them by now

 

[Bill D]

I have to sort of chuckle to myself. As consumers we want everything including custom options. continual improvement and fast delivery times. I feel for you Stan. I manage an Apple reseller/service centre,so I can relate to working in a fast paced, ever changing environment, while trying to offer the highest level of service that customers have come to expect and demand.

Thank you for taking the time to respond, Stan. We are glad you are listening.

 

[fireball]

I think a nice set of photos for each of the units that gives a pretty good overview of the process, that would be made available to customers would satisfy a lot of our requests. Yes, I'm an engineer and would prefer the actual model it was built off of, but if "what's behind the walls" was more readily accessible info via some nice photos like Ski3pin's documented ATC build, it would help those of us out who want to tinker.

Not to tell you how to run your business, but if spend a little bit of time gathering that information and making it available, it may save you a lot of time responding to the same requests over and over again

 

[Ripperj]

I'm not saying I agree that FWC should supply drawings, but I have a hard time believing the frames are not built in a jig- this would make the major frame members pretty consistent

 

[Durango1]

I also don't understand why a wiring schematic would be so difficult to provide. (Sorry, Stan)

 

[fireball]

Something doesn't add up here. FWC is unwilling to do any sort of custom work. That leads me to believe high volume production lines and methodology. I can't imagine with the number of units they are producing they aren't using a small number of jigs for the various configurations.

Again, my comment above about a set of photos taken during the build of typical units would likely be plenty satisfactory to those of us who want to know what's going on behind the panels so that we can modify our units. It would also save Stan a lot of time and effort answering the same requests and same questions over and over again

 

[Bosque Bill]

I'm in the same pickle as many of the folks in this thread. In fact I found this discussion searching for frame mounting information. I talked to Roy in FWC service last week and he was not able to give me any definite information as to where frame members would be in the rear of my Fleet. He said no drawings existed and the designs changed frequently. I don't want to mount anything heavy.

I wished I'd known to ask for photos of the frame for my unit when it was being built.

I wonder if a stud-finder, such as sold by Home Depot, would be any help?

 

[Wandering Sagebrush]

<snip>

I wonder if a stud-finder, such as sold by Home Depot, would be any help?

I suspect it would, but I would try it from the inside to be on a wood surface. It might be fine on the outside, too...

 

[PaulT]

Another possibility is using an infrared remote thermometer with laser pointer like this one from Home Depot. http://www.homedepot.com/p/TITAN-Infrared-Thermometer-TIT55010/206874260?cm_mmc=Shopping%7CTHD%7CG%7C0%7CG-BASE-PLA-D25T-Garage-Automotive%7C&gclid=Cj0KEQjwqtjGBRD8yfi9h42H9YUBEiQAmki5OoZkZlnv2qcugSNDyZxyz5b7jQKwB0sIa4fCqSDakE4aAklQ8P8HAQ&gclsrc=aw.ds

There are many mfg. I bought a cheap one from Harbor Freight that works well enough for this task.
On a cool morning, heat the interior of the camper. Then use the remote reading thermometer to find cool spots on the surface where the aluminum frame is conducting heat away from the warmer interior. Mark several cool spots vertically and/or horizontally on the wall and lightly draw lines connecting them. Verify with the stud finder. Using both should give confidence in locating the frame tubes. Even if the tubes are filled with insulating foam, there is continuous aluminum from the interior to exterior that readily conducts heat away.
I have not tried this, but a winter spent in BC in a cabin that had interior panelling nailed into the 2x4 studs resulted in quarter inch frost balls on every nailhead on the exterior bedroom walls every morning from condensed breath. Steel doesn't conduct nearly as well as aluminum. Worth a shot

Paul

 

[Bosque Bill]

The conventional stud finder did not work. It acted like it was working, but never returned consistent results. The gentleman at Home Depot said I could return it if it didn't work. I explained exactly what I was trying to do and neither of us was optimistic, but thought it worth a try.

Thermal methods are problematic in my situation. The relevant section of the rear wall of the camper is covered by the compressor fridge on the inside. The wall is covered so I couldn't even see the frame when I peeked through the vent opening.

(As I don't need to support very much weight I will use that 3M/Scotch "Extreme" double-sided mounting tape on the outside panels. I tested a one inch length to hold a clean board to a painted, aluminum sheet and the bond was extremely strong. I pulled hard and it didn't give. In my application I will have two 14" strips attaching a 14" x 4" board to the back wall. If this works I'll write up a full description of my project when it's completed.)

 

[PaulT]

According to AMSOLAR, the VHB tape they use has 800 lbs shear strength in the four 1 inch by 2 inch strips they use for their solar panel mounts.

That is 100 lbs per inch square. That would imply you have 14" by 1" * 2 strips * 100 lb / square inch.==> 2800 lbs shear strength in your application. Might suffice for your load. Just do good surface prep cleaning.
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/562bc73de4b0908330f67ee0/t/57964aad9f7456af1485e45f/1469467310264/3M+VHB+4950+Prep+Instructions.pdf

Paul

 

[Bosque Bill]

According to AMSOLAR, the VHB tape they use has 800 lbs shear strength in the four 1 inch by 2 inch strips they use for their solar panel mounts.

Paul, I didn't buy the VHB tape, just the "extreme" consumer version that is not nearly so strong, advertised as 30# max (their lawyers probably came up with that number - ha!) The VHB tape is available on Amazon, but is pricy.

I just tried to pull apart that 1 x 1 inch test bond I made yesterday and I pulled as hard as I could and it didn't give - this was a straight pull, no twisting, which is realistic in my application. Yes, I'll prep the surfaces well. Thanks for your comment.

 

[NRVhawk]

According to AMSOLAR, the VHB tape they use has 800 lbs shear strength in the four 1 inch by 2 inch strips they use for their solar panel mounts.

According to 3M's data sheet on the VHB 4950 tape (the version that AM Solar sells), the shear strength is 80 psi, and the tensile strength is 140 psi. Seems to me that a solar panel on a camper going 70 mph down the road would develop more tensile stress than shear stress on the attachment points. I'm guessing that the panel will act somewhat like an airfoil, generating forces that will try to lift the panel. But the fact that AM Solar has done lots of installations without panels flying off indicates that the force must be less than the 1120 lbs of tensile strength provided by four 1x2 pieces of tape.

After watching one of the AM Solar videos about mounting their panels, one comment by the installer that stuck with me was that the VHB tape mount is only as good as the adhesion of your paint to the roof, if you're attaching the mounts to a painted roof. Apparently FWC uses a baked-on enamel paint on the aluminum roof skin. I expect they're following industry standards for surface prep, application, and curing in order to get max adhesion. But I doubt that they've tested it for an application like this.

EDIT: Oops, sorry, I forgot that the original discussion was about mounting to the rear wall of the camper, not to the roof. Hopefully the info on the VHB tape is useful for anyone considering using it for mounting solar panels to the roof.

 

[PaulT]

I should measure the feet on my panel mounts. Perhaps, they exceed 1" by 2". Still, 140 psi by 8 sq inches exceeds 1000 lbs tensile and 600 shear strength.

As BosqueBill was mounting something specified as not heavy and I assumed he was using the VHB tape, it just seemed that it was significant overkill for the task with an expensive tape.

Sorry if I "triggered" you. I'm going back to my "safe space" and recover.

Paul
ps. I need an emoticon for "tongue in cheek".

 

[NRVhawk]

Sorry if I "triggered" you. I'm going back to my "safe space" and recover.

Ha! Supposedly :-J is the ascii emoji for "tongue in cheek".

I'd been stuffing my head with info on VHB tape and solar panel mounting, so it didn't take much to trigger me. All that stuff had to come out sooner or later.

The VHB tapes (and similar non-3M acrylic foam tapes) are pretty impressive - they seem to be finding its way into a lot of interesting structural applications.

 

[adamxcl]

I have several AMSOLAR panels I installed in early 2007 with the 3M VHB tape. I was a bit skeptical back then but they said it works. 10 years later, they are still there. I used it again on my solar hot water panel that I built. I try to give them a good test each year but they never move. So I am sold on it myself.

 

[ckent323]

I have a fair amount of experience with adhesives used in Aerospace and in woodworking.

Tensile strength is typically measured perpendicular to the surface and is often the direction having the best strength numbers. Shear is generally measured in the direction parallel to the surface and often has high strength values.

The peel strength is often the deciding factor for me in an application like sticking something to a roof top. Often it seems the peel strength of an adhesive is a low value relative to tensile or shear strengths and that is why it is not infrequently a deciding factor.

It is useful to do a web search and understand how the strength tests that the manufacturers use to come up with the strength numbers are conducted in order to be sure the particular strength number has relevance to your application.

In the end trial and error may be required but understanding the loads and directions may help find a good starting point.

Regards,

Craig