Why Can't The FWC Owners Get This Information ?

Wallowa

Double Ought
Joined
Nov 4, 2015
Messages
2,189
Location
NE Oregon
I have asked and asked for a three-dimensional layout of my 2016 hawk for a very long time. Normally FWC is very responsive to requests for information and assistance; but not in this case.
Simply put I want the frame and internal wiring, plumbing, appliance, options diagrams showing positions and measured locations inside the outer skin and outside the inner paneling.

For me that is essential for any on the road repairs or modifications. What say you Stan?

The following is except from July 2015 "Truck Camper Magazine"; they toured the Woodland FWC site. Underlining is mine.


"Up the set of stairs I used to take the previous office image is where the Four Wheel Camper engineering team resides. In this photograph, Reena Obediah, a degreed Engineer with SolidWorks certification, works on a three-dimensional layered Four Wheel Camper model.
Engineering currently has two SolidWorks computer stations responsible for generating the CAD drawings needed by the welding, cabinetry, and assembly lines. Behind this station are at least a dozen binders full of detailed CAD drawings of every Four Wheel Camper."
 
I agree that knowing what's under the skin would be useful. I've wondered more than once where I need to drill to hit a frame member for mounting something.

It could be that FWC won't share actual 3-D files for intellectual property reasons -- or something like that.
Where I used to work we tried to get -- from a manufacturer -- 3-D drawing files for a piece of their pharmaceutical process equipment that we owned. We wanted these in order to create a computational fluid dynamics model of the process. But the manufacturer wouldn't release the files...like, they were afraid that we'd use the info to build a machine ourselves. So we had to create the 3-D model from scratch.

Yep, I'd like to see at least a detailed diagram of the frame of my camper.
 
Note: The article I quoted was from a July 17, 2015 posting. Not a current article in the "Truck Camper Magazine"; but posted under FWC info at that magazine site.

Mark I understand the proprietary nature of some if not all of the CAD data; but like you a simple "X-ray" diagram of the models would go a long way in helping the owners understand "what is where" for framing, appliances and wiring/plumbing as built.

Anyway...I can make do with my limited knowledge..did stick a digital camera in every opening that I could get into and photographed the innards behind the cabinets and paneling.

Phil
 
Wallowa said:
I have asked and asked for a three-dimensional layout of my 2016 hawk for a very long time. Normally FWC is very responsive to requests for information and assistance; but not in this case.
Simply put I want the frame and internal wiring, plumbing, appliance, options diagrams showing positions and measured locations inside the outer skin and outside the inner paneling.

For me that is essential for any on the road repairs or modifications. What say you Stan?
X2, Stan.

You know what a Cheerleader I am for FWC. This is a simple request and would be of huge help for those of us who spend 20-30K for one of your excellent campers and then proceed to rip them apart to make "improvements". (Stan, wait till I send you photos of my latest modification and this with only having spent 4 nights total in my 2015 Hawk Flatbed!) :)

So wassup?
 
I also was curious as to why this info and wiring diagrams are not included with all campers sold, not just FWC. None of this is rocket science. It is welded aluminum, screwed wooden boards and wires. Why can't we know where things are so we troubleshoot issues or can make our campers what we want, especially as many companies will not customize....?
 
FWC does not seem like a hungry company anymore. Their customer service levels are not anywhere near what I would consider acceptable. They don't even seem to reply to emails all the time. I guess that's what everyone gets for supporting a small little camper company. It's like the nerdy kid on the playground that you hang out with because you feel sorry for them, then the nerdy kid becomes cool and wants nothing to do with you anymore and ignores you. That's FWC...............................
 
Happyjax said:
I also was curious as to why this info and wiring diagrams are not included with all campers sold, not just FWC. <snip>
I received a series of photos showing my framing and wiring. It has proved to be very helpful.

ATC-13Nov2013-038-web.jpg
 
alaskaguy said:
FWC does not seem like a hungry company anymore. Their customer service levels are not anywhere near what I would consider acceptable. They don't even seem to reply to emails all the time. I guess that's what everyone gets for supporting a small little camper company. It's like the nerdy kid on the playground that you hang out with because you feel sorry for them, then the nerdy kid becomes cool and wants nothing to do with you anymore and ignores you. That's FWC...............................

Ouch! Honestly all my dealings with FWC and American RV have been first rate....sure I don't always get the answers I need as quickly as I would like...but so what? The forum and Stan @ FWC comes to the rescue.

Example...I washed our new '16 Hawk and notice water inside the awning and back LED porch lights...no problema...push in on bottom tab and tilt out to release the two upper tabs on the clear cover...Ooooops, bottom tab has about 1/2 of it broken off on awning light cover...email Stan...immediately get an email from service dept...new cover went in the mail to me that day...no charge...pretty damn sweet service!

So whatever your experience has been with FWC I doubt that many others share your angst...nothing or nobody is 100% but from my perspective FWC is a customer oriented company that makes one hell of a great camper.. :D

Phil

====================

Hey Ski...how did you manage to get the photos?
 
A possible solution to where the aluminum framing members are would be to turn on the heat inside on a cool night and use an infrared camera outside. You will clearly see the thermal bridging where the framing members are.
 
My experience with FWC has been excellent, before and after my purchase. We'd all love to have a full detailed 3D drawings of our units, there must be a reasonable reason why FWC won't do it? Luckily I live only two hours from FWC, so when I needed to drill some holes I visited the factory for advise.
 
You may not like it, but in a word, Liability. If FWC (or any manufacturer) supplied drawings for a camper, they are assuming responsibility that every framing member, wire, water or gas line and anything else that may be in the wall or ceiling IS exactly where the drawing shows it. There is always a "sue happy" individual out there because something isn't where a drawing said it was, or there is something that didn't show on a drawing.

It's safer to say no than to explain in court why they said yes to someone. :cautious:

In Ski3pin case, the pics were of HIS camper and probably presented himself as a competent person . :D
 
ski3pin said:
I received a series of photos showing my framing and wiring. It has proved to be very helpful.

ATC-13Nov2013-038-web.jpg
Yeah Ski, but your camper is an ATC. We know there's night and day difference between the customer service at ATC compared to FWC. ATC is kind of like Alice's Restaurant :p .
 
K6ON said:
Yeah Ski, but your camper is an ATC. We know there's night and day difference between the customer service at ATC compared to FWC. ATC is kind of like Alice's Restaurant :p .
Yes Bob, you are right. The reason for my post was to illustrate that there are builders out there that supply necessary information, in response to Happyjax's comment, and also to illustrate the value, agreeing with the original poster, of knowing where things live behind the wall.

My camper info is at the bottom of each of my posts.
 
Engineering currently has two SolidWorks computer stations responsible for generating the CAD drawings needed by the welding, cabinetry, and assembly lines.


I feel a response to your request is in order, but I think we should respect the fact that FWC may not want detailed engineering diagrams floating around outside the company.
 
I dunno, I feel like FWC is in the business to sell campers, not the plans for campers. Yeah, it's not rocket science, but the plans are the IP (intellectual property) of FWC. I don't know how long FWC has kept complete plans for each camper - that's quite an engineering/documentation feat, but I suspect that if they did provide plans for each camper it would involve one or two more bodies hired just to take care of that. Then, what if someone gets the wrong plans, or the camper owner misinterprets the plans and causes damage. Who's going to pay for that? Then there are those that order a camper, then change their mind, and change their mind again, and again, before the camper is built.

A lot of us here on WTW do modify, repair, even bring some old campers back for the brink of the scrap yard. But, we're probably not the norm (Yep, huh, I'm not normal . . .). I suspect most of FWC's customers just want a high quality camper to go camping in, and stick their various do-dads to the walls with command hangers when they feel the need to.

While repairing mine, I was tempted to make up some drawings, but decided it would just take too long to measure, record, make drawings. I took pictures, and if I need to know where something is I can refer to them.

Kudos to ATC for their willingness to photo document and update orders as they progress. I learned quite a bit about all of these campers from ski3pin's build thread.
 
In my time with FWC I was responsible for documenting each and every camper. I created the 3D drawings for every existing model and created plenty of new models as well. As the documentation went on I began to see where we could add to or remove frame components. I was also able to see where we could consolidate different frame layouts. Each time there was a new window, stove, water fill, awning, light, etc. there was a need to change/add/remove frame member locations. A Hawk built in January could have a different frame than a Hawk built in July. The constant improvements and upgrades made it impossible to have a published drawing for any camper. So if Joe were to have a drawing of his Hawk and share that drawing with Bob who purchased his Hawk a year later...Bob would be quite upset when he drills a hole in his new camper and finds only foam behind it.

and yes, Wuck, it was quite an engineering/documentation feat!
 
Hey Folks,

I am not asking for nor do I want a 'CAD keys to the kingdom of FWC'...lets get real here...this is not high tech "I could tell you but then I must kill you" crap...these are campers for gosh sake. Anybody desiring to copy FWC's designs can learn all they need to know by tearing one apart; but that anybody should not be a FWC customer who paid good coins of the realm for one...lots of coins at that.

Seriously, where are the wires routed and what do they service; same for plumbing. What is connected to what and where are they. ...heck, knowing where the frame members are is crucial for any modifications or repairs..does everyone else but me know what is where between the outer skin and inner surfaces?

Liability? Please stop that before it gets started. You can run scared of the boogey man or man up and move on. Yes it is OK to remove the tag from the mattress.

Did not mean to start a food fight with my inquiry. But knowing what is where in my Hawk is not a big thing to ask for. Running changes notwithstanding; a generalized diagram of the layout is not only feasible but needed.

Of course, I could be wrong.... :D

Phil
 
Sorry to join in late in the game with this conversation. :(

Unfortunatly FWC has never given out Autocad or Soildworks drawing to customers. Most of the reason ... they just didn't have any in the past. They weren't available. The past 4 or 5 years+ FWC has been doing more and more drawings for all of the campers, framing, floor plans, etc. It is a work in progress and changes almost every week. Our engineers can't always keep up with the new designs we throw at him.

We also have learned that giving some customers too much information can be a curse too. In a few cases over the years we have supplied the customer all of the information they were looking for and needed, but the customer didn't know what they were looking at and didn't know how to read a tape measure. It caused more problems for the both of us in the end. I have talked to many of the other truck camper manufacturers, trailer manufacturers, motor home builders, etc. over the years, I can't think of any of them giving out frame drawings for each model? I would LOVE for FWC to be able to supply each customer with that! But with what we have to work with and how often things change & improve, we don't have enough staff to make that a reality, at least not yet.

Depending on who you talk with at FWC, we always try and be as accomodating as possible. We have a staff of almost 70 people now and we are growing. so many different people and all with different personalities. Pick any department in the building and I would say most everyone is maxed out. What is asked of the staff members is not always humanly possible during a normal work week. We are running a 100mph trying to get everything done at the end of each day. If you knew us and could sit in on a normal work week at FWC you would be amazed at how positive our staff members stay and how much they try and help the customers whenever possible. Our staff fights more than anyone for the customers (behind the scenes).

Terry or myself are always glad to help customers with camper information and taking pictures of their camper on the production line. I have documented many camper builds over the years for my customers, not with line drawings, but with pictures of the camper, their particular framing, etc. For an outsider or a customer that might come from a different industry or has worked at a well oiled, smooth running company, they usually don't have any idea on how busy we are at FWC and how understaffed we feel sometimes.

Our willingness to help the customer with every request is not a function of "we don't want to". It is a function of "we just can't". :( We have 225 campers on order right now, and if we had to document each camper and take pictures for every customer, we would not be able to take calls, do e-mails, or help in other ways to keep the wheels on the bus.

We are going to have some FWC supporters out there, some haters, some customers with awesome experiences, and some customers that might not have had a good experience with us. But please know that we are giving it 110% here to build some of the best campers on the market and take care of our customers the very best we can. We are not sitting back crusing, building the same old campers we did many years ago. We are always improving the parts we use, our designs, our floor plans, and the campers over-all from top to bottom.

I can fully see our strengths and weaknesses when it comes to sales and customers service. I have been living and breathing Four Wheel Campers 50 hours a week for the past 14-15 years. There are many things I would change and improve if I could, but we all here at FWC work with what we have, to make all of this possible. We really do love our customers, and are here to support you. But please be patient and understanding that there are some things we can do, and some things we can't do for every customer. Always feel free to ask, have some patience with us as we grow, and let's try and work together to make FWC a better camper & a better company.

PS: If you have e-mailed me Wallowa asking for frame drawing, please hang in there (not sure if you have or haven't?) I don't work in retail sales any longer, but I'm glad to try and help you if at all possible. It can take me some times to gather information and I can only do it as time allows. But that said, I can always get it for you sooner or later. I'm still taking walk-in customers, used camper calls, new camper calls, answering 20 - 30 e-mails a day, helping our dealers, maintaining our website, managing our database, sitting in on meetings, working with our marketing projects, attending trade shows, etc. (and handling our social media accounts when I get home at night, LOL). I love it all and I really enjoying working with our customers. I'm just super busy right now, like most of the staff here at FWC, trying to keep up with our growth and daily responsibilities.

Thanks for listening and your patience.

I can be reached at (800) 242-1442 or Stan@fourwh.com if you would like to talk further. Call or e-mail anytime.

Thank you.



.
 
JBahr and Stan confirmed my guess, that the design is fluid enough that a set of prints would be very specific to as few as one camper. And that doesn't mean that undocumented design changes didn't happen on the fly, so the print would end up being an estimate at best. Unless the print was known to be absolutely accurate for S/N's XXX1 thru XXXX it would be worthless, and that kind of product control is a huge undertaking. One that I don't see much pay-off in at their volume level.
 
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