Winter camping and furnace size

[Wallowa]

"Just got home from a week of camping in -10 Celsius. If I leave the furnace running all night it uses about 2/3rds of a 10lb propane bottle for heating and cooking. I used a Honda Generator when running the furnace all night. Other nights I just turned it off and on when needed. My Hawk is a 2010 and the furnace is stock - not sure of the brand. It runs most of the night at a low setting. I prefer to keep the batteries topped off in that weather hence the generator. I have 2 AGM batteries.

I have used the camper in -22 Celsius - I find that the cold is hard on the camper. At that temp I sustained a crack in the plastic windows so be careful. I try to heat the camper before opening and closing to make the pop up material more flexible."

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Wow...help me here...you used about 5.3 gallons of propane over night with out side temp -10 C [14 F]? I doubt if we or our '16 Hawk are the exceptions, but we typically can go almost two weeks on one 10 gal [actually they are filled to 80% or 8 gallons] bottle...cooking breakfast and dinners plus furnace off over night but set at 45 F with vent over bed open a few inches. In fairness our coffee and meals are short cooking times and mostly boiling a pot of water or a short simmer.

Good advice about pre-heating material when temps approach freezing...never thought of that.

 

[patrkbukly]

furnace off over night but set at 45 F with vent over bed open a few inches.

Do you leave that vent open for safety concerning monoxide or is it more for the humidity mitigation?

I ask because I ofetn woner if we can just keep the camper completely sealed to keep warmth in. Here in the rockies we get pretty cold at night and even small openings really let warmth out. I just don't know how safe that is?

Seems to me the Atwood furnace that came with the FWC is pretty safe though, all exhaust is really only on the outside of the camper so should really be OK would/t you think?

 

[Wallowa]

Do you leave that vent open for safety concerning monoxide or is it more for the humidity mitigation?

I ask because I ofetn woner if we can just keep the camper completely sealed to keep warmth in. Here in the rockies we get pretty cold at night and even small openings really let warmth out. I just don't know how safe that is?

Seems to me the Atwood furnace that came with the FWC is pretty safe though, all exhaust is really only on the outside of the camper so should really be OK would/t you think?

We vent the Hawk whenever feasible...meaning most of the time...more air flow inside that small space is a good thing...removes C02/C0 and moisture....perhaps our biggest reduction of moisture comes from always venting vigorously when cooking stove is on, whether cooking or not, but once burner is lighted pot goes on and when cooking is done, burner is immediately off...stove produces C0/Co2 and water vapor; plus, we only cook on the stove for the briefest times possible; cooking is largest source of water vapor in our camper except at night and then it is from exhalation...

Propane less of a worry inside the camper but venting covers that possibility also...frickin' propane/C0 alarm has so many false alarms, it is not trustworthy..

Last note, if you by some miscalculation really get a lot of smoke or vapor or odor inside the camper...open the door, with screen door closed, and by cranking the Fantastic Fans briefly they will clear out the camper in moments..

Always a tightrope of saving propane, saving water, saving batteries and yet staying comfortable and safe. The latter is #1.

Phil

Ps...Yes Atwood furnace vents outside as does the hot water heater and I trust that they do not leaking exhaust gases or vapors into the camper; but we still vent just in case and fresher air is a hell of lot nicer to breath that stale air.

 

[patrkbukly]

Thanks Phil,
yes I'm with you on cooking, for that we always vent no matter what at least for the duration of the cooking.

We leave again Wednesday and first 3 nights of our route will be in tye 20's each night but we will be in Texas by night 4 so temps won't be such a concern.

 

[muttmaster]

Ditto on 10 lb propane tank usage. If anyone uses up 2/3 for cooking and heating overnight, you must have the unknown brand furnace set above 80f and had your door open. My 10 lb tank last just about two weeks of daily use.

 

[agate]

I use my 2010 stock Hawk quite a bit in N. Mn during early Nov. for my deer shack. It can vary quite a bit. But, my Atwood works great, with or without generator to run it. I typically use almost 10lb a night below 5 F.....I like to use the generator to fun fan it helps much. If you go into the night with four lights for fully charged battery, set heat on lowest setting, you will have 1/2 your battery juice in AM....outside temps 0-20 at night. Always vent top window and ceiling vent, otherwise condensation...I am sure I get it from my hunting clothes as well as cooking even with window and ceiling open...for this past year I had no shore power, something in converter I am working on it....but had a second battery, run battery charger on that one while I had a working one in camper. switched them every day to the full one before bed....one can also run the truck for an hour or two and recharge back to full....I have used this system since I got it in 2010 and in -20 F temps...I also have the Arctic Pack and use some extra insulation inside near and on floor.....

 

[Ramblinman]

"Just got home from a week of camping in -10 Celsius. If I leave the furnace running all night it uses about 2/3rds of a 10lb propane bottle for heating and cooking. I used a Honda Generator when running the furnace all night. Other nights I just turned it off and on when needed. My Hawk is a 2010 and the furnace is stock - not sure of the brand. It runs most of the night at a low setting. I prefer to keep the batteries topped off in that weather hence the generator. I have 2 AGM batteries.

I have used the camper in -22 Celsius - I find that the cold is hard on the camper. At that temp I sustained a crack in the plastic windows so be careful. I try to heat the camper before opening and closing to make the pop up material more flexible."

====================================================================================
Wow...help me here...you used about 5.3 gallons of propane over night with out side temp -10 C [14 F]? I doubt if we or our '16 Hawk are the exceptions, but we typically can go almost two weeks on one 10 gal [actually they are filled to 80% or 8 gallons] bottle...cooking breakfast and dinners plus furnace off over night but set at 45 F with vent over bed open a few inches. In fairness our coffee and meals are short cooking times and mostly boiling a pot of water or a short simmer.

Good advice about pre-heating material when temps approach freezing...never thought of that.

I got a little freaked out that my Hawk was a propane hog so I just did some checking on google -please correct me if I am wrong. A 10lb tank should hold roughly 2.3 gallons??? So I used 1.6 gallons to heat/cook in my camper for 15hours -10C/14F? https://www.lakesgasco.com/propane-101/lakes-gas-blog/179-propane-tank-sizes.html



Propane Pounds to Gallons: 1 Pound = 0.236 Gallons (30.2 Ounces)

Yip - I ran the heater for about 15hrs or so and ran the stove for food and coffee. I set the thermostat for around 60F I turn the 4 window corners down a couple of inches and crack a vent so that air moves thru the camper to mitigate condensation. My concern with condensation is not the areas I can wipe, its that areas I cannot wipe ie behind the panels. I thought that propane usage was pretty reasonable. I think it cost me about 4 or 5 bucks of propane. Also the propane flowing from the burners lessened as time went on. I assume that this was a symptom of the cold and my tanks emptying.

Comparatively, during my trips to Baja (Hot weather is anomaly for me I am Canadian) 2 10lb tanks last me about 2 weeks running my stove fridge and BBQ.

I am impressed how much time you can get out of your tanks in cold weather if you are referring to 10lb tanks.

I spent MANY nights sleeping under the stars, in the cold under a tarp, or in tent. I figure that if I have invested so much money in a FWC I will use its amenities to keep me comfortable or I may as well go back to tenting and my MSR Whisperlite.

Please send me a msg if anyone is getting better milage out of their propane tanks in these conditions ie -10C/14F. If so I will check my systems.

I use the generator to keep the batteries topped up - Full batteries to me are similar to a full tank of gas. I am not sure that solar would work well in the overcast and snow conditions that I encounter in southern Alberta.

 

[klahanie]

Ramblinman, fwiw I've had similar results. We used to mostly winter camp, after those times I decided that if there was a next time truck configuration, I'd want to be able to carry 2 batteries and 2 (20#) lpg tanks. But as always with personal experience, mileage varies.

btw how are you carrying extra LPG ?

And yeah, it's best to get pound and gallons correct.

10lb tank, says 2.5 gal filled 80% = 2 gal
https://www.propanetankstore.com/10-lbs-2-5-gallon-manchester-propane-tank/

2 gal lpg = ~191K BTU
https://www.convertunits.com/from/gallon+%5bU.S.%5d+of+LPG/to/Btu+%5bthermochemical%5d

191K BTU capacity / 12K BTU/hr furnace consumption = 15.9 hrs flat out running.

Another way of sizing furnace and fuel capacity would be to use an online room/building heat loss calculator. IIRC it was pretty easy for me to come up with a 6K BTU/hr requirement just to maintain a 20C (32F) inside vs outside temp. And here furnace efficiency should be considered, as noted post #20 by iowahiker. For eg our 16K btu furnace outputs ~12K.

More air exchange thru venting would increases loss. IDK the effect wind would have on cooling. And there's bound to be other factors.

 

[Wallowa]

I got a little freaked out that my Hawk was a propane hog so I just did some checking on google -please correct me if I am wrong. A 10lb tank should hold roughly 2.3 gallons??? So I used 1.6 gallons to heat/cook in my camper for 15hours -10C/14F? https://www.lakesgasco.com/propane-101/lakes-gas-blog/179-propane-tank-sizes.html


Propane Pounds to Gallons: 1 Pound = 0.236 Gallons (30.2 Ounces)

Yip - I ran the heater for about 15hrs or so and ran the stove for food and coffee. I set the thermostat for around 60F I turn the 4 window corners down a couple of inches and crack a vent so that air moves thru the camper to mitigate condensation. My concern with condensation is not the areas I can wipe, its that areas I cannot wipe ie behind the panels. I thought that propane usage was pretty reasonable. I think it cost me about 4 or 5 bucks of propane. Also the propane flowing from the burners lessened as time went on. I assume that this was a symptom of the cold and my tanks emptying.

Comparatively, during my trips to Baja (Hot weather is anomaly for me I am Canadian) 2 10lb tanks last me about 2 weeks running my stove fridge and BBQ.

I am impressed how much time you can get out of your tanks in cold weather if you are referring to 10lb tanks.

I spent MANY nights sleeping under the stars, in the cold under a tarp, or in tent. I figure that if I have invested so much money in a FWC I will use its amenities to keep me comfortable or I may as well go back to tenting and my MSR Whisperlite.

Please send me a msg if anyone is getting better milage out of their propane tanks in these conditions ie -10C/14F. If so I will check my systems.

I use the generator to keep the batteries topped up - Full batteries to me are similar to a full tank of gas. I am not sure that solar would work well in the overcast and snow conditions that I encounter in southern Alberta.

First...a brain fart, I read 10 gal not 10 pound in your post...you are correct about +/- 2.3 gallons of propane per 10 # bottle of propane..my apology, good catch on your part...if per regs [CGA] here in USA you can only fill to 80% and if 100% is 2.4 gallons of propane then all we have in a "full" 10# bottle is 1.92 gallons.

I see the disconnect or difference between some of us that seem to stretch out how long we can camp while not depleting a 10# tank...my heater might run 2 hours because we typically set it to 45 degrees at night and it will not come on more than 4 times for a few minutes; 60 degrees would cook us out of camper...as mentioned we use little for cooking, basically only boiling water and often at altitude where water boils at a lower temperature...

Your temps are low and prolonged...I also would be interested in hearing from folks with FWCs that are using their campers in temperature similar to those you camp in..

Phil

 

[rando]

I get about 3-4 nights out of each 10lb propane tanks with lows around 15 - 25F, cooking (coffee in the morning, quickish dinner) and heating up the hot water tank once a day. I have the thermal pack, and only open the roof vent when the stove is on. Set the thermostat around 55F for the evening/morning, 48 at night and off during the day.

 

[Wallowa]

I get about 3-4 nights out of each 10lb propane tanks with lows around 15 - 25F, cooking (coffee in the morning, quickish dinner) and heating up the hot water tank once a day. I have the thermal pack, and only open the roof vent when the stove is on. Set the thermostat around 55F for the evening/morning, 48 at night and off during the day.

Not certain of quantity of propane needed to heat up hot water tank...especially if ambient temps are low...even at moderate temps the first heating of the 6 gallons takes a long time [20mins?] with the burner roaring....once heated it does retain a lot of heat...but we seldom use it if on extended stays off grid beyond propane re-fills...Balancing act: Try to retain heat in hot water heater [some heat to cabinet with plumbing] and inside camper with cabinet doors open to protect plumbing from freezing and yet not running out of propane...we carry camp stoves in the event we do run out of propane and would if required drain out the Hawk water system...we also carry several gallons of "backup" water..

Not much different from backpacking really. Figure out the limiter and plan around that; playing "what if"...Regardless the Hawk still beats the hell out of a cold tent in below freezing temps!

I also still love my MSR Whisperlite stove and have added jet-boil and a coleman three burner..so far have not needed them...could even melt snow with them in a pinch for water but Steripen is easier if there is surface water...

Phil

 

[rando]

The 6gal water heater is ~9000 btu/h and heats up in around 20 minutes, so figure 3000 btu to heat it up. One pound of propane is 21,000 btu, so around 1/7 pound to heat up the tank. Even when it is well below freezing out, the hot water is still slightly warm in the morning, so I figure it is good insurance against freezing the water cabinet for very little cost in propane.

 

[Wallowa]

The 6gal water heater is ~9000 btu/h and heats up in around 20 minutes, so figure 3000 btu to heat it up. One pound of propane is 21,000 btu, so around 1/7 pound to heat up the tank. Even when it is well below freezing out, the hot water is still slightly warm in the morning, so I figure it is good insurance against freezing the water cabinet for very little cost in propane.

Thanks interesting data.

[SIZE=10.5pt]Yes, if below freezing outside we heat the water tank up just before going to bed..not to use hot water but to keep the tank full of hot water in the hopes that some of that heat will escape to the surrounding plumbing in the cabinets...BUT the tank is very well insulated and what tangible amount this actually helps to warm the space in the cabinets obviously is a huge WAG...and remember the heater is vented to outside so some of that thermal mass is external of the camper..but we still will do it if we have sufficient propane ...with your calculations heating that 6 gals initially takes about 6% of a bottle of propane..[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]You know there are so many variables with the questions like this posed on this forum that I personally feel that the only valuable answers will come experientially. Each of us must determine what works best for us in any given situation based on our specific and unique circumstances. If we learn the correct sequences needed for the most effective use of our campers under varied conditions then overall all is good and we can meet our expectations. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Old expression is true “your mileage may vary” and ultimately getting the answers you need is not based on the decisions others have made. There is commonality in using our campers but each of us place different demands on the systems.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Hey.. "you can't always get what you want, but if you try, you just might find you get what you need".. [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Phil[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Ps...I could be wrong !! [/SIZE]

 

[Ramblinman]

Klahanie - at this point I am not carrying extra propane. If required I supplement with a buddy heater and wear a toque and sweater to bed. At the time I was camping in the middle of the prairies while hunting mule deer in southern Alberta. It was windy and snowy and just colder than what the temp read.

I spoke to it a little bit earlier - If find the extreme cold hard on the camper. I am not sure I would intentionally camp in my Hawk below -15C. But that’s just me. My experience as been its hard on the windows, the plastic, my door locks stick, and the old boy just does not want to get it up!!! I feel like somethings are on the verge of breaking.