1/2 ton or 3/4 ton, what are most people using for their FWC?

[craig333]

Curious why you call them high maintenance. I consider mine to be very low maintenance. Oil change, fuel and air filters once in a while and thats it.

 

[JaSAn]

Three things to consider in 1/2T vs. 3/4T besides GVWR:

1. Frame flex - Will your camper handle the flex from a 1/2T frame on uneven terrain? Ford 1/2T seem to flex a lot.
2. Brakes - Manufacturers put larger (and more expensive) brakes on 3/4T trucks for a reason. Check on stoping distance when loaded. I want the shortest panic stop I can get.
3. Rear Axle - most 3/4T have full-floating rear axles, most 1/2T have semi-floating rear axles. Semi-floating axle shaft holds the wheel on, full-floating axle shaft just drive the wheel (a 4X4 can be driven with a broken axle). Is that important to you?

bsharp007 - does Ford use a bigger bodies on the (SWD) larger pickups? Or why are thy harder to park than the F150?

jim

 

[Bwht4x4]

I took a serious look at the Ford F250's to haul my Hawk and they are HUGE vehicles, just too big for driving in a city or fitting in a standard parking spot. If you use your truck as a daily driver like most of us do, the bigger trucks pretty much suck. Sure if you're living in a rural environment it works OK. But the modern diesels are high maintanance vehicles and you have to deal with the costly DEF fluid. Totally not worth it IMO. I have had a fully loaded Hawk on a 2012 Ford F150 with airbags in the back and E rated tires and I have had zero problems, the truck is well within its payload rating. The brakes are more than adequate with the Hawk on.
And now the newer Ford F150's have more payload, more power and more MPG than my truck.
You do not need a diesel either for safety or MPG.
I did take a serious look at the new Rams and I really liked them, might be the most luxurious vehicle I have ever been inside, unfortunately the height of the bed to the top of the cab didn't work with my current Hawk.
So I went with a new Ford F150 with a payload of more than 3000lbs, plenty to haul any FWC.

The newer diesels are some of the easiest and maintenance free vehicles there are. My new 2018 Ram 2500 can go 15,000 mi between oil changes and DEF is no issue at all. A tank of DEF can last me nearly 10,000 mi, which is about filling up every 7 to 10 months! My last fill up of my DEF tank cost me $6.

 

[DieselShack]

I took a serious look at the Ford F250's to haul my Hawk and they are HUGE vehicles, just too big for driving in a city or fitting in a standard parking spot. If you use your truck as a daily driver like most of us do, the bigger trucks pretty much suck. Sure if you're living in a rural environment it works OK. But the modern diesels are high maintanance vehicles and you have to deal with the costly DEF fluid. Totally not worth it IMO. I have had a fully loaded Hawk on a 2012 Ford F150 with airbags in the back and E rated tires and I have had zero problems, the truck is well within its payload rating. The brakes are more than adequate with the Hawk on.
And now the newer Ford F150's have more payload, more power and more MPG than my truck.
You do not need a diesel either for safety or MPG.
I did take a serious look at the new Rams and I really liked them, might be the most luxurious vehicle I have ever been inside, unfortunately the height of the bed to the top of the cab didn't work with my current Hawk.
So I went with a new Ford F150 with a payload of more than 3000lbs, plenty to haul any FWC.

Maintenance is hardly any different on a diesel than a gasser. 15k mile oil/oil filter/fuel filter intervals, air filter as needed, 60k transmission fluid, rotors and pads last a stupid long time. All this maintenance i can do myself which cuts the costs. My Cummins ram 3500 handles my camper/37” tires like a walk in the park. Def fluid is cheap and you don’t need it often, practically negligible cost factor.

 

[SCUD]

I recently moved my fully-equipped Fleet Front Dinette (1450# dry) from an overloaded 2008 GMC 1/2-ton Canyon FWD to a 2018 GMC2500HD gas 4WD. 1894# camper/cargo maximum, 2644# maximum total cargo/passengers/fuel. The Canyon suspension was modified with Torklift StableLoads, airbags, and Rancho RS9000 XL shocks, all of which levelled and stabilized the combination but did notthing for the overwhelmed brakes. StableLoads are the only modifications made to the new truck. They are engaged with the camper on, levelling the truck from front to rear, and act as a rear stabliizer bar as well. With the camper off, they are easy to disengage and do not impact the ride or handling. Airbags are not needed; I do miss the ability to use them to level the rig when parked.
https://www.torklift.com/rv/stableload

 

[Bill D]

Thanks Scud.
I like the look of those Stableloads. I never knew they existed. Clever product.

Thanks David for post #40. Helpful.

 

[rubberlegs]

I don't get the brakes problem. For example, a recent Tacoma can tow 6400 lb. Of course, trailers often have brakes, but not always. Our Tacoma seems to brake ok. I hate to brake super hard but had to recently and it performed ok. Maybe I don't get the trailer brakes thing -- I've never had a trailer.

 

[SCUD]

rubberlegs,

The Canyon brakes were disc front, drum rear. OK for most times, but my last trip South through California involved several occasions on the freeway where people would pull in fromt of me and slam on their brakes. After a few of these, my brakes faded and I would stop to let them cool down. Pads/shoes were good, and lines were flushed/filled a year ago (done every 3 years). When descending the Grapevine, the same problem, even when gearing down. The total weight of the truck and camper was several hundred pounds over the Canyon GVW.

 

[rando]

The brakes issue is one of heat, not stopping distance. If you can lock up your brakes, and with a modern truck you almost certainly can, then the limiting factor for stopping distance is tire friction with the road, not your brakes. What bigger brakes provide is the ability to dissipate more heat - so you can brake harder for longer. This is obviously important on long down hills or with frequent panic stops - but can generally be alleviated with carful driving. Down shift on hills, as opposed to riding your brakes, leave more space in front of you etc.

All other things being the same (tires, road etc) a 3/4 ton truck will have a longer stoping distance than a 1/2 ton, simply because it is heavier and therefore has more inertia and tire friction is not strictly proportional to the normal force.

 

[inciter]

We did not want a f150 after having one for a while. The F250 is doing great on and off road. Hope this helps...

 

[ntsqd]

Unless it's brakes are more effective at turning Kinetic Energy into heat and then dissipating that.

snip........

All other things being the same (tires, road etc) a 3/4 ton truck will have a longer stoping distance than a 1/2 ton, simply because it is heavier and therefore has more inertia and tire friction is not strictly proportional to the normal force.


Assuming that you could disable the ABS on a modern truck, being able to lock up the tires is not really a good test of anything. Look for a stopping distance test. Hopefully you can find one with the trucks loaded.

We started out with a 6.5' camper in our 3/4t and it didn't need anything done to the suspension. Truck barely knew the camper was there. This Cuchara XL is a different story. the combo is no longer light and nimble. It sways in corners and definitely has inertia of its own that I have to drive aware of. It now also sits slightly nose high. I'm pondering the rear spring options.

 

[windy]

I don't get the brakes problem. For example, a recent Tacoma can tow 6400 lb. Of course, trailers often have brakes, but not always. Our Tacoma seems to brake ok. I hate to brake super hard but had to recently and it performed ok. Maybe I don't get the trailer brakes thing -- I've never had a trailer.

most states require any trailer that has a gvwr of 3000lbs or higher to have trailer brakes.

 

[rando]

Unless it's brakes are more effective at turning Kinetic Energy into heat and then dissipating that.

snip........

All other things being the same (tires, road etc) a 3/4 ton truck will have a longer stoping distance than a 1/2 ton, simply because it is heavier and therefore has more inertia and tire friction is not strictly proportional to the normal force.


Assuming that you could disable the ABS on a modern truck, being able to lock up the tires is not really a good test of anything. Look for a stopping distance test. Hopefully you can find one with the trucks loaded.

We started out with a 6.5' camper in our 3/4t and it didn't need anything done to the suspension. Truck barely knew the camper was there. This Cuchara XL is a different story. the combo is no longer light and nimble. It sways in corners and definitely has inertia of its own that I have to drive aware of. It now also sits slightly nose high. I'm pondering the rear spring options.

By 'lock up the brakes' I am talking about having the ABS kick in, which is the modern equivalent of locking up the brakes. What this tells you is that your brakes can provide enough force to stop the truck, in which case going to bigger brakes or a truck with bigger brakes will not shorten your stopping distance. Once you are hitting the ABS, stoping distance is entirely dependent on the friction between your tires and the road surface.

Heat build up is a different issue, and bigger or better brakes can help with this, as can driving style.

It seems to be a common misconception that either upgraded brakes or a bigger truck will allow you to stop faster - I just want to point out that unless your current brakes can't lock up (ie activate the ABS) then this is not true.

The best thing you can do to reduce your stopping distance is to get tires with the highest coefficient of friction with the particular road surface you are driving on (which is likely highway tires on pavement, snow tire on snow, and AT tires on dirt).

 

[JaSAn]

The brakes issue is one of heat, not stopping distance. If you can lock up your brakes, and with a modern truck you almost certainly can . . .
All other things being the same (tires, road etc) a 3/4 ton truck will have a longer stoping distance than a 1/2 ton . . .

Unfortunately, with ABS you cannot lock up your brakes so the coefficient of friction between pad and rotor are constantly changing, so the assumption that a loaded 1/2T (with smaller brakes) will stop faster than a loaded 3/4T pickup in a panic stop is not clear.

I agree with ntsqd: try to find data on stoping distance when loaded. Too many unknowns to easily determine theoretically.

I stand by my argument that manufacturers put larger brakes on 3/4T and 1T pickups for a reason and I don't presume to know all the reasons why.

 

[smlobx]

......

All other things being the same (tires, road etc) a 3/4 ton truck will have a longer stoping distance than a 1/2 ton, simply because it is heavier and therefore has more inertia and tire friction is not strictly proportional to the normal force.

I'm sorry Rando but I'm going to have to call you out on this statement as it is simply false.

Larger brake rotors provide more braking surface and therefore more "bite" for a given amount of travel (i.e. Rotation of the tire).

If you put 2000 pounds in a half ton and the same weight in a one ton I can guarantee you that the one ton will stop quicker even though the gross weight is more as that is what the truck was designed for. I say this coming from over 30 years of having my Class A license and have driven a lot of heavy rigs.

 

[rando]

To be clear I am not suggesting that there is no reason for larger brakes, particularly on larger trucks. Bigger disks and calipers deal better with heat and can maintain stopping efficiency better on long down hills or repeated panic stops without brake fade. My point is that a larger truck or brakes does not correlate to shorter stopping distances.

Here is some data to back this up (all 60mph - 0 mph distances in feet):

F-150 unloaded: 140.2'
F-150 loaded (1500lbs): 140.1'
F-250 unloaded: 147.8'
F-250 loaded: 153.2'
F-350 unloaded: 156.4'

So the first point is that load only slightly increases stopping distance (or not at all in the case of the 150). Secondly, larger heavier trucks (loaded or unloaded) have (slightly) longer stopping distances.

(Edit to add F350)

 

[smlobx]

......
We started out with a 6.5' camper in our 3/4t and it didn't need anything done to the suspension. Truck barely knew the camper was there. This Cuchara XL is a different story. the combo is no longer light and nimble. It sways in corners and definitely has inertia of its own that I have to drive aware of. It now also sits slightly nose high. I'm pondering the rear spring options.

Ntsqd do you have a rear sway bar on your truck? When we bought our rig we didn't have one but after installing the Hellwig Bigwig bar it made a significant difference.

 

[rando]

I'm sorry Rando but I'm going to have to call you out on this statement as it is simply false.

Larger brake rotors provide more braking surface and therefore more "bite" for a given amount of travel (i.e. Rotation of the tire).

If you put 2000 pounds in a half ton and the same weight in a one ton I can guarantee you that the one ton will stop quicker even though the gross weight is more as that is what the truck was designed for. I say this coming from over 30 years of having my Class A license and have driven a lot of heavy rigs.

With heavy rigs where you don't have sufficient braking force to stop the wheels from rotating, then this is likely true.

But it you have sufficient braking force to stop the wheels from spinning (which will engage the ABS) then having more braking force doesn't buy you anything. Once you have hit the ABS then the limiting factor is friction with the road.

Even the guys selling big brake kits will tell you this:
https://www.cquence.net/blog/big-brake-kits-do-they-work/
Stopping distance is more about tires:
https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a10316984/why-braking-is-all-about-tires/

 

[Vic Harder]

It is often hard to correlate personal experience with established facts. It is even harder to correlate the personal experience of others with what they think of as facts.

Variables and unknowns abound!

My own experience with an early Toyota Tundra was that the brakes were terrible. They couldn't even really haul the truck to a fast stop unloaded. I had no desire to add a camper to that truck, which is why I bought my 2500hd, which really stops fast, even with the load. Hence, "3/4 tons stop better with a load than a 1/2 ... maybe because it has better brakes."

I also know that I added a big brake kit to the V8 Miata I built, and it did nothing for my on-track performance, because the original setup was good enough (with the right pads and replacing rotors often), to lock up the brakes. Changing to track only tires made a HUGE difference. Hence, "bigger brakes make no difference, but tires do".

Those damn variables!

 

[JaSAn]

Here is some data to back this up (all 60mph - 0 mph distances in feet):

Unfortunately, its not same loads:
For loaded F-150 "loaded with 1,500 pounds of rock salt"
For loaded F-250 "When loaded at max payload"
Ford brochure lists 2018 F-250 max payload at 4250 lbs.

Indicates that the F-150 in a panic stop should not be affected by the load of a 1500# camper.

Would be interesting to see what the stoping distance of the F-250 would be with the same 1500# load.

Shorter stoping distance of the loaded F-150 due to rear tires having more contact?