Couple things I noticed at 5 degrees F.

[Wallowa]

RV antifreeze not as poisonous and regular antifreeze. A quick search found this:

PROPYLENE GLYCOL – This type of antifreeze is only available in RV shops. It is non-toxic and the safest for all types of RV plumbing. This antifreeze is non-flammable and does not taint water systems. Propylene glycol is a lubricant and will actually work to extend the life of the seals in your toilets and faucets.

Regular antifreeze is ethylyn glycol--very poisonous to pets and people.

I doubt just adding the toilet chemical to the water will keep it from freezing. You may want to experiment with that at home.

Switched from idea of using deodorizer tabs to using windshield washer fluid...I know it does not freeze... and good idea to confirm when diluted if it will protect the porta-potty....we have some zero nights coming up...

 

[PaulT]

One thing to be very aware of when dealing with antifreeze. If it is -20 degrees, keep in mind that -20 degree liquid will really do a number on your bare skin. Don't let any splash on you or get your fingers in the liquid. The results will not be pretty or pleasant. Your skin and underlying flesh can freeze on contact with the antifreeze.

Giving yourself first aid or driving to an ER with frozen fingers from a remote location could be difficult.

Paul

 

[patrkbukly]

One thing to be very aware of when dealing with antifreeze. If it is -20 degrees, keep in mind that -20 degree liquid will really do a number on your bare skin. Don't let any splash on you or get your fingers in the liquid. The results will not be pretty or pleasant. Your skin and underlying flesh can freeze on contact with the antifreeze.

Giving yourself first aid or driving to an ER with frozen fingers from a remote location could be difficult.

Paul

Yes Ive read that somewhere too.
Another reason my oersonal preference is just draining the lines and done.

 

[Wallowa]

Yes Ive read that somewhere too.
Another reason my oersonal preference is just draining the lines and done.

Ha! Freezing flesh? Of course. Like in "Dumb and Dumber", sticking your tongue to metal pole in freezing temps....kind of like peeing into the wind...you learn quickly...

Phil

 

[muttmaster]

Patrbukley, I have a 2016 Grandby too. You mentioned that around 25F you would empty all water from the camper system. I have never worried about freezing water lines or water in spare 5 gal water containers left outside unless it gets down to below 19F. I try to not fill water containers to full, maybe couple of inches below the top spout. If it did freeze, only a bit of ice will easily melt when the sun comes up.

As far as your furnace cycling times, that is a lot of in/off time through out a long winter night. I would worry about running down the batteries and not getting a good night sleep hearing the noisy furnace fan. I am really glad to have a Wave 3 heater. It won’t keep you too warm at 15F by itself, but it cuts down the furnace cycling through the long nights. Wave 3 seems more miserly in gas usage too. Furnace does heat up the camper quickly and much needed in the hours before sunrise, when the coldest temperature of the night occur, usually.
I use a inside/outside digital thermometer that helps me prevent freezing lines. Another tip is never trust a weather report. Plan and expect forecasts to vary 10-15F lower. If it gets down to 0F, I rather go lower in elevation or go home.

 

[patrkbukly]

Patrbukley, I have a 2016 Grandby too. You mentioned that around 25F you would empty all water from the camper system. I have never worried about freezing water lines or water in spare 5 gal water containers left outside unless it gets down to below 19F. I try to not fill water containers to full, maybe couple of inches below the top spout. If it did freeze, only a bit of ice will easily melt when the sun comes up.

As far as your furnace cycling times, that is a lot of in/off time through out a long winter night. I would worry about running down the batteries and not getting a good night sleep hearing the noisy furnace fan. I am really glad to have a Wave 3 heater. It won’t keep you too warm at 15F by itself, but it cuts down the furnace cycling through the long nights. Wave 3 seems more miserly in gas usage too. Furnace does heat up the camper quickly and much needed in the hours before sunrise, when the coldest temperature of the night occur, usually.
I use a inside/outside digital thermometer that helps me prevent freezing lines. Another tip is never trust a weather report. Plan and expect forecasts to vary 10-15F lower. If it gets down to 0F, I rather go lower in elevation or go home.

Hi Muttmaster,
My logic on the temp is as follows;
In montana one night the thermometer said 21 degrees and my faucet at the line coming in froze and cracked. I replaced it with a better stainless kitchen faucet which was an upgrade.
Here in the Misquito range one night the temp said 17 and during the next day the outside faucet/shower which we had been using getting mud off after we had gotten in a muddy creek building a walkway/bridge for someone....the female portion of the fitting cracked which wasnt discovered till later coming through the cabinet under the sink. And yes we left the little door to the shower open. Yet there have also been times at 15 at Lake Granby (ironically) and none of my stuff froze.

With these two experiences I feel telling people 25 and below you are entering a risky area is a true statement. When people say to me; "Oh Ive been in 10 degrees and nothing happend" I say great, keep doing it. But on the inside I always think of the person that says "Oh you can cross the street with your eyes closed....I did it and nothing happend". So to each his own, I am simply stating my personal experiences, not gospel, just mine.

Sounds like the heater you are using is a good one. Thats great. I agree with you, my cycling time seems excessive but I suspect there is an exponential relationship with temperature drop and insulating ability of the FWC's.
In other wods, I bet when it's 50 outside it can keep it at 60 easier than when its 0 outside keeping it at 10. I don't know if I'm explaining that concept correctly but hopefully you get my point.

Thanks for the feedback.

 

[muttmaster]

Play it safe than sorry. That is why a digital in/out thermometer with max/min readings can help you prevent freezing. If it is consistent 21F outside for hours and hours and with wind chill not factored in. Water lines will freeze if inside temperatures is not managed properly. Your two experiences of freezing lines can make anyone weiry and worried about their expensive camper, that is why I came here on this forum to learn from old timers who had lot of experiences camping in the cold. Everything I have done is learned from others and experimented to keep comfortable. Of course everything I done is good enough for the area I usually camp at in Ca. Montana in Winter is another level of cold that I might not want to get used to. Head south young man.

 

[patrkbukly]

Play it safe than sorry. That is why a digital in/out thermometer with max/min readings can help you prevent freezing. If it is consistent 21F outside for hours and hours and with wind chill not factored in. Water lines will freeze if inside temperatures is not managed properly. Your two experiences of freezing lines can make anyone weiry and worried about their expensive camper, that is why I came here on this forum to learn from old timers who had lot of experiences camping in the cold. Everything I have done is learned from others and experimented to keep comfortable. Of course everything I done is good enough for the area I usually camp at in Ca. Montana in Winter is another level of cold that I might not want to get used to. Head south young man.

Well said, I too have learned lot's from everyone here.
Will try and get down to Big Bend next cold blast we have here.

 

[rando]

I am one of those folks that has had good luck using the water system down into the low teens and even the single digits once or twice. To be clear - this was with running the furnace at night to keep the inside of the camper well above freezing, and with daytime temperatures at or above freezing. A significant portion of our trips are in the rockies and south west in autumn/winter/spring, and if we were not comfortable with using the water below freezing, then we would rarely be able to use the water system.

There are a couple of caveats to this though - I added inside shutoff valves to the outside shower. This will freeze as it is directly exposed to the outside air, so I blow this out in the autumn and then shut the valves until the spring. I am also prepared to winterize on the spot if necessary, eg if there were to be an issue with the furnace or colder than expected daytime highs. I have an on board compressor and in line regulator, and can winterize the camper in about 15 minutes. I also carry some collapsible water bladders, so if we had to winterize I could keep at least some of the water. Finally, we have to cross several 10,000' passes to get to the SW desert, so in the winter I don't fill up on water until we are on the western slope, then winterize again before coming home.

In short, if you don't want to have to think about your water system, then winterize if the lows will be much below freezing. However with a little bit of thought and care you definitely can use the water system in colder weather.

 

[patrkbukly]

I am one of those folks that has had good luck using the water system down into the low teens and even the single digits once or twice. To be clear - this was with running the furnace at night to keep the inside of the camper well above freezing, and with daytime temperatures at or above freezing. A significant portion of our trips are in the rockies and south west in autumn/winter/spring, and if we were not comfortable with using the water below freezing, then we would rarely be able to use the water system.

There are a couple of caveats to this though - I added inside shutoff valves to the outside shower. This will freeze as it is directly exposed to the outside air, so I blow this out in the autumn and then shut the valves until the spring. I am also prepared to winterize on the spot if necessary, eg if there were to be an issue with the furnace or colder than expected daytime highs. I have an on board compressor and in line regulator, and can winterize the camper in about 15 minutes. I also carry some collapsible water bladders, so if we had to winterize I could keep at least some of the water. Finally, we have to cross several 10,000' passes to get to the SW desert, so in the winter I don't fill up on water until we are on the western slope, then winterize again before coming home.

In short, if you don't want to have to think about your water system, then winterize if the lows will be much below freezing. However with a little bit of thought and care you definitely can use the water system in colder weather.

Those sound like effective techniques.
Last month during Thanksgiving week we did a run to Big Bend, then Palo Duro Canyon and one night in Abilene which were all nice temps and we did like you and once we hit New MExico we drained the system so driving back home our risk was gone.

 

[muttmaster]

Rando, I looked into splice in shut off valve in outside shower line but there is just no room in my Grandby. Short of taking the cabinet apart to even access the short hose, there isn’t enough space for a valve inline. If someone had a solution, I do it right away. It is the only weak point I worry about besides the main tank drain line. (Just had another look, looks like I should be able to take my sink off and then plug off the hot and cold line going to the shower, but that may be too much trouble. Two shut offs would be much easier.) I can’t access that line easily either to put in a valve inside. I think 4WC should built in shutoff valves at these two lines in the future to prevent damage.

 

[Wallowa]

Dang...thanks to all for the input...lots of pearls of wisdom I would never have thought of...and put me in the "better safe than sorry" column.

Everyone have a great Christmas and New Year....

Phil

 

[rando]

Rando, I looked into splice in shut off valve in outside shower line but there is just no room in my Grandby. Short of taking the cabinet apart to even access the short hose, there isn’t enough space for a valve inline. If someone had a solution, I do it right away. It is the only weak point I worry about besides the main tank drain line. I can’t access that line easily either to put in a valve inside. I think 4WC should built in shutoff valves at these two lines in the future to prevent damage.

On my flatbed there is space for the valves in the small cupboard above the furnace. I added some push to connect valves to the pex run there. With those valves shut off, all the water system is contained within just one cabinet, that also contains the water heater. The water heater provides enough heat to keep this cabinet well above freezing. As for the drain line - I am sure mine has frozen particularly as I added a metal drain valve, but the tube is flexible braided tubing and is stretchy enough not to mind.

 

[Wallowa]

Blowing out water lines...I have the screw on cap with the compressed air valve that attaches to my Hawk exterior water line fill fixture....

I assume you open drain on back wall of camper, open sink faucets, open exterior shower valve, open hot water tank drain into main water tank...before putting an air line on the screwed on cap..

Does this sound correct? Any tips?

Thanks...Phil

 

[muttmaster]

Sounds right. I usually drain everything first and then open one thing at a time to blow out, and screw out pump filter too to dump water out. Best tip I learned was to use psi regulator, dialed down below 45 psi or so to prevent blowing out fittings.

 

[steve whiteside]

I just got back from mammoth Mtn here in CA where I camped in a blizzard for 3 days and then an additional 4 days of cold. Overnight I was seeing outside temps down to 5-10F and one night at -1F. I run a Goal zero Li battery pack which is exposed to the outer wall of my 2020 Grandby. I wrapped it in a sleeping bag and left the inside heater on low. The heater would kick on at ~37F and kick off at ~57F.propane. A single tank of propane lasted 6 days using the heater and occasional stove use. I took your advice and drained the water system. I used external jugs for water and had to manage keeping the ones in my truck back seat un frozen. All in all it worked out well. Ended up with 2-3ft of snow on the ground. I was prepared to rake the snow off of my roof however the high winds kept the snow from accumulating.

Steve

 

[steve whiteside]

 

[steve whiteside]

not sure how to make those gallery images bigger than thumbnails.

Steve

 

[muttmaster]

Glad you survived a genuine blizzard and was well prepared for it. But, I have to say that was not very wise. I understand the need to get out of the city and soaking in hot springs, but you knew the blizzard was coming and risked being out there. Not so much fun stuck in camper for three days wasn’t it. I am not impressed. Sorry for being critical, but I have being on many SAR missions in the winter in the past to find people who should of known better.

 

[patrkbukly]

Sounds like you did well in the Granby (i think granby) Steve.
Which thermostat do you have?
6 days from one propane tank means you went through a lot of fuel but if you slept well and got through it all fine sounds like things worked as they should.

also im curious as a comparison to what mine does in similar conditions...how often would you say the furnace cycled on and off in that 37 to 57 range you stayed in?

Nice setup and rig by the way. I like the FWC’s in black. I think that was a smart move on their part.

patrick