Disappointed in Ford / sad state of US automakers

[DirtyDog]

I was encouraged recently to read that for the first time in years, Ford's quarterly US auto sales were better than Toyotas. The reason was reported to be the stunning success of the new Ford Fusion Hybrid model, that has been reviewed as the "best hybrid car to date". Thinking we finally had a victory for US auto-makers - I was then disappointed to find out that this new super-car from Ford was actually made in Mexico.

On top of that there are the reports that the new, smaller diesel engines that were due to be released in F150 trucks have been delayed or even cancelled due to "the lower price of gasoline" in recent months. This is exactly the kind of short-term thinking that has gotten the US auto industry in big trouble as it is constantly playing catch-up to the more forward-thinking Japanese companies. Anyone that knows anything about the history of oil and oil politics knows that inevitably gas prices will continue to climb - if not this year or the next then certainly in the not-so-distant future. Will Ford be ready? Doesn't seem so.

So when Toyota produces that domestically built, diesel Tundra, are we going to buy it and feel good about the decision? I would.

Locally we have just lost our GM and Chrylser dealers. We live in an isolated small city that is the hub of a rural area that stretches well over a hundred miles in every direction. I guess this is the end of GM and Fiat trucks being used on farms and ranches.

Here's an opportunity for Ford to assert itself as the premier US auto maker but can it see the opportunity through? Unfortunately with the company being run by the same short-sighted executives that have ruined American industry over the last 20 years, I highly doubt it.

 

[realbtl]

Built/made vs Assembled

I think one needs to be careful about terminology here. Most of the Japanese cars and trucks are assembled in the US from parts made everywhere but especially in Japan for major components. My guess is that the Fusion has quite a bit in it that is made here.

I try and buy America (whatever that means in today's world). I've been looking at Tundras (used) but am not willing to pay the premium over similar Fords. There are some great deals on used Ford or other brands if you want the gas engine. Yes the mileage ain't great but I'm not going to use it to commute. A $3k price difference will buy a lot of gas. Same reasoning wrt diesel. The motor may go 250k mi but will I want to drive a truck with that many miles?

If I were a patient man I would wait until gas gets back to $4/gal. You would be able to steal those F250 V10s. Probably not going to happen.

 

[DirtyDog]

I think one needs to be careful about terminology here. Most of the Japanese cars and trucks are assembled in the US from parts made everywhere but especially in Japan for major components. My guess is that the Fusion has quite a bit in it that is made here.

Thats a good point, but in a recent article (I'll look for it later) about what really is an "American made car" - the percentage of US sourced parts for US made vehicles were compared, and if I remember correctly, Toyota was #2 right behind Ford for highest percentage of US sourced parts.

 

[ScottBailey]

DD,

I think Ford made a big mistake postponing the 4.4 diesel, but since auto sales are done, so is R&D funding... I hope that's short term...

Don't forget auto execs MUST satisfy their bosses, the shareholders, demands for short term profits.

And, having said that, I just bought my wife a "new" 2008 Expedition. (Dealer demo.) This may be the nicest riding "car" we've ever owned.

 

[realbtl]

Chickens!

Interesting story, sorry I can't find the link. One reason for the Japanese decision to make trucks here is, yes, chickens. In 1962 Europe raised the tariff on US poultry products. In retaliation LBJ put in a 25% tariff on imported light trucks, at that time mainly VW buses. The Japanese at first imported the chassis and bodies separately. In 1982 this loophole was closed and, after trying things like the Chevy LUV, they set up plants here.

So the Toyota fans on this site have(at least indirectly) to thank VW(Yeah) and chickens for your USA trucks.

 

[Mark W. Ingalls]

Diesel, while yielding better mpg, pollutes a whole lot more. In the case of CO2, it's a marginally larger cause of global warming than gasoline (that is, if you believe GW has a cause).

Perhaps it's better to go away from long chain hydrocarbons, toward propane and LNG?

Needling a separate vein, suppose those new vehicles were assembled in Canada instead of Mexico? Would y'all have a problem then? (As a matter of fact, Canada has been hurt more from NAFTA than we have; many of the labor intensive assembly jobs went from North-of-the-Border to South-of-the-Border.)

Mexicans deserve to have an economy, too. Be careful that you don't succumb to passive racism, or 'culturalism'... not every byproduct of nationalism is for the good.

Mark W. Ingalls
Registered Republican

 

[brett13]

Here is an article that explains content by country. Go to page 3 for the list. Dodge has less US content than Toyota which has less than Ford and GM. But interestingly, the US content is still high even for the worst on the list. Even the Honda Accord which is considered an "import" is 70% American made parts.

It isn't clear what is really "American" in terms of vehicles. But if you want to clearly buy American, don't go to Walmart and the next time you buy a tool, skip the one with the "Made in China" sticker and pay up for the American one. My Chinese made compressor crapped out after a couple dozen uses. Bought a USA-made one this time. Oh, and of course ATC/FWC only. Sometimes you get what you pay for, as the old adage goes.

 

[browndog]

The 25% tariffs on light trucks in the US is correct. In 1973 Toyota purchased a small plant in north Long Beach, CA to build the truckbeds. The chassis were imported to POSHA (Long Beach Harbor) marshalling yard and installed at the port. This continued through about 1998 or so (I forget).

The beds continued to be produced by Toyota in Long Beach through about 2005 and sent to NUMMI in Fremont, CA (by the way, the plant that Toyota turned around because GM could not). The beds are still sent to NUMMI but now made outside of Tijuana, Mexico. This is the only facility of Toyota's in Mexico.

I would be careful assuming most of the parts come from Japan that go on a Toyota that is built here. There are plants in Canada (Ontario), West Virgina, (engine plant by the way), San Antonio, Georgetown, HQ in Torrance (sales) and Erlanger (ops), Princeton, Indiana and others coming on line which will include the Prius. And, yes, the GM/Toyota joint venture called NUMMI in Fremont, CA.

The plant that made beds in 1973 is now one of the largest stamping and makers of catalytic converters in the world.

Toyota's strategy is and will continue to be a majority of local content. That is the only way the production system works.

Oh, and if anyone thinks it is the unions causing the issue, NUMMI is UAW, TABC in Long Beach is Teamsters (do not get me wrong here, the UAW is a problem but just one of the many).

Toyota keeps adding plants in the US and the others are shutting down. This is not because they are importing parts from the most expensive (or nearly so) labor market in the world, Japan (exchange rate dependent).

I have been in auto plants all over the world. Including Chrysler (Toluca, Mexico) making the precious PT Cruiser, GM (Leon, Mexico) making the Suburban, and others. Toyota wins.

US trucks are hard to beat, especially in the diesel version. But, remember, none of them did their diesels. We talk in terms of Cummins and Isuzu not Chrysler and GM. Not to mention the transmissions (Allison for example). Nothing wrong with this, just a small point. And Toyota built a horrible truck to start (the T100). Joke. But, Toyota learns and has a very, very long term veiw.

BTW, I believe we have hurt the winner (Ford) by funding GM and Chrysler through our government. Ford won and they should be able to leverage this. Now they cannot do to the government. Hard to win when you have an endless pit of money against you.

As a disclosure, yes, I did work for Toyota. Great people. Great company.

Paul

P.S. Switching from GM to Ford. Try Ford for a while and see what happens. Not ready to give up the diesel. Everything else I have driven for 20 years has been a Toyota.

 

[browndog]

By the way, "The Prize" is a great book on the history of the world in terms of the oil industry. We keep repeating the same mistake. This time is no different.

 

[DirtyDog]

Needling a separate vein, suppose those new vehicles were assembled in Canada instead of Mexico? Would y'all have a problem then? (As a matter of fact, Canada has been hurt more from NAFTA than we have; many of the labor intensive assembly jobs went from North-of-the-Border to South-of-the-Border.)


Canada and Mexico makes no difference to me. You'll have to read racial and cultural undertones into another discussion. I have friends and family that are out of work and I'd like my dollars to help them out. Simple as that.

 

[brett13]

BTW, I believe we have hurt the winner (Ford) by funding GM and Chrysler through our government. Ford won and they should be able to leverage this. Now they cannot do to the government. Hard to win when you have an endless pit of money against you.
Unfortunately, this is true. I'm not sure how Ford can compete with the heavy debt load when GM and Chrysler get rid of most of their debt through bankruptcy. We'll see just how indebted they emerge. Toyota is smart enough to have a AAA balance sheet i.e. very little debt, so they are never at the mercy of creditors. It was a bold strategy for Ford to follow, I hope it pays off.

 

[Mark W. Ingalls]

Canada and Mexico makes no difference to me. You'll have to read racial and cultural undertones into another discussion.

Fair 'nuff. I suppose I'm just chapped that there's a Southern, but not a Northern, wall going up...

 

[pods8]

The thing thats irritating about the diesels is its not just the mpg's that are nice about diesels its the torque they dump out for their size as well.

Fair 'nuff. I suppose I'm just chapped that there's a Southern, but not a Northern, wall going up...

I'm sure if there was the same magnitude of illegal drugs and people flooding over the Canadian boarder things would be reversed. Mexico needs a stable and uncorrupted gov. to solve any long term issues down there and inherently any issues the USA feels from the current situation. I don't call it racism I call it acknowledging the situational differences.

 

[Ted]

DD, this website is extraordinarily friendly for a forum. Why do have to go and open up a can of worms? That said, I'll jump in anyway...

When we make a large purchase, whether it be an appliance, vehicle, or whatever, we do a lot of research. I would like to buy American as much as the next guy, but when it comes down to it, quality is the defining factor. Brett said "You get what you pay for". I believe that to be more than an adage, I take it to heart. Realbtl said he isn't willing to pay the 3k premium for a Toyota. I'd be willing to bet that 3k is an investment compared to the costs that will add up in repairs on an American manufacturers' truck. I'm a union employee and at a place of employment that has had a round of layoffs in the last month due to the economy, and most likely more coming. But our last six vehicles have been Toyotas, and at least our next two replacement vehicle purchases will be also.

 

[DirtyDog]

DD, this website is extraordinarily friendly for a forum. Why do have to go and open up a can of worms? That said, I'll jump in anyway...


It wasn't really supposed to be a political topic..... I meant it as more of a gear thread. I would just like to see a viable US auto manufacturer with strong roots in the US.

I'm not sure there is that much difference in the quality of Fords and Toyotas these days. I have one of each right now and I've had a few Ford trucks which have all been great.

 

[DirtyDog]

By the way, "The Prize" is a great book on the history of the world in terms of the oil industry. We keep repeating the same mistake. This time is no different.

Just finishing that up now. Eye opener for sure.

 

[Ted]

I would just like to see a viable US auto manufacturer with strong roots in the US.

I have no argument with that.

I'm not sure there is that much difference in the quality of Fords and Toyotas these days. I have one of each right now and I've had a few Ford trucks which have all been great.

Not having owned a Ford since the 80's, I can't compare the two now. But along with my argument of repair costs, there is also resale value to consider. Take any year used Toyota vehicle and compare it to a similar year and equipped American vehicle. The Toyota will make up that price premium every time. Everyone of our past Toyotas has sold on the day advertised at full asking price, some with more than 200k miles on them.

 

[DirtyDog]

there is also resale value to consider

True dat.

 

[realbtl]

Oops

Sorry if I inadvertently helped steer this into a "domestic" vs "import" thread. My point was that it depends on your needs/wants. Like Ted I try to buy American but as my sig. shows, unless I can count the 63 VW as a sort of American-classic-by-adoption, I'm only half way there. I love my Acura and when I bought it last year there was no American counterpart in the price range.
I'm looking at trucks in the 50k-60k miles range for a dedicated camper rig. I doubt that I'll average 8k miles/year and plan to keep it 5-10 years. My 4 Fords have all gone over 100K mi with no problems so for my needs the premium doesn't pencil out. YMMV.

 

[realbtl]

Just to Clarify

Just to clarify how truly ambivalent I am on this issue, I'm off this AM to measure up the bed on an 05 Tundra DC. I'm going to look at a Ranger II in Coeur d'Alene tomorrow and have determined it will likely look weird on a short bed F250. Now if Ford just made a DC Ranger. . . The Ifs will kill ya, won't they.