Dual 6 Volt vs Dual 12 volt battery FWC option

Wallowa

Double Ought
Joined
Nov 4, 2015
Messages
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Location
NE Oregon
Probably missed it but why would you pick dual 6 volt batteries which I assume are in series over dual 12 volt batteries in parallel? I did hear that the 6 volt batteries can deliver 30% more 'power' [Ahs?] than the 12 volt batteries; how I don't know.

If in series [6V] and you have one the batteries goes weak aren't you 'up a creek'? In parallel [12 volt] you would still potentially have 12 volts if one of batteries craps out, correct?

I see the dual 6volt batteries are a $600 FWC option....ouch!

Phil
 
It's just for more reserve (well, depending) and the ability to draw them down further. The golf cart style batteries are designed to be drawn down further and recharged, at least more so than some of the other 12v options.

I killed 12v batteries by drawing them down too far and they wouldn't recharge. I switched to dual 6s (with a different trailer) to get more reserve and a true deep cycle battery. It was more hassle than it was worth (IMHO).
 
Ace,

Thanks...I get it...but what about "series vs parallel"? Did they fit existing battery box in camper? How much more weight? What brand/model did you buy?

Relevant since I met you at Tigard when we both bought our campers at the same time.. :D

Thanks again...Phil
 
I wired the 6v in series.

This was for a trailer I had prior to the Hawk and it had a single 12v battery that was supposedly deep cycle or a hybrid. It was not a deep cycle in practical terms (it was a slightly better car battery I think). The 6v batteries I swapped were much taller and I had to swap out my battery box to a different design. They were much heavier as well. They needed to be maintained regularly (water added). Although they provided a better reserve and I ran them down more, I didn't like the cost, weight, maintenance and size.

In my Hawk I went with dual 12v batteries and I've added solar. I've never had a problem with lack of power; although I will likely add another 100w solar panel.
 
Ah! Now I see.

That actually is good news. Your Hawk and your use is very similar to ours...and I also plan on another panel [currently with 160 roof and 80 portable]..

I doubt that I will ever go back to a vented, lead-acid battery...off-gassing, adding water and chance of acid escape is a no-go...all my motorcycles and vehicles use AGMs.

Let me know where you place a second roof panel [we have two roof vents], what brand you buy and how you wired it in.

Thanks Again,

Phil
 
Phil, I don't think there is any inherent advantage to serial over parallel in battery wiring. I think it is more of a form factor and weight consideration. Also "Golf Cart" batteries can be AGM or FLA. FLA is more of a hassle than most of us are willing to put up with, so my assumption is we are all talking about various AGM battery shapes and sizes and AH capacities and designed purpose.

The reason "Golf Cart" comes up frequently is as a contrast to "Starting" batteries or marine/deep cycle batteries. These are all designed differently for their different applications.

Starting batteries are designed to deliver huge current to the electric starter for short periods of time. They don't work well with low current loads over a long time, which is why a puny dome light left on overnight can kill your battery leaving you stranded.

Golf Cart batteries are designed for moderate draw over long periods... similar to your fridge/fan running for 48 hours.

Marine/deep cycle are half way in between. Sometimes they are used to start the engines in the boat, and in between they have to run the lights.

As for size/shape, when I was planning my shell build, I knew I wanted 200AH or more of battery, and I looked for battery brands with a good reputation. Typically this means their www sites have detailed spec sheets with charging profiles and such, and good warranties. And then I looked a sizes/weights. I could barely lift/fit my 250AH 6v batteries into place. I did find a 12v 200AH battery, but I think it was over 160 lbs. Ugh. By then I had drunk the 6v cool aid and went that way, but two of these would do much the same

http://www.rollsbattery.com/battery/s12-128agm/

Only 73 lbs each. :eek:
 
Vic,

Thanks that helps...FWC uses these 6 volt batteries..[SIZE=11pt]Model number is, US AGM2000 @ 66 lbs and about $400 each..my IOTA IQ4 and Zamp solar will work with them...FWC does not recommend lead/acid [off gassing] and only uses AGMs..[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]What brand/weight/cost of 6 volt battery did you buy?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Thanks,[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Phil[/SIZE]
 
Wallowa said:
Vic,

Thanks that helps...FWC uses these 6 volt batteries..[SIZE=11pt]Model number is, US AGM2000 @ 66 lbs and about $400 each..my IOTA IQ4 and Zamp solar will work with them...FWC does not recommend lead/acid [off gassing] and only uses AGMs..[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]What brand/weight/cost of 6 volt battery did you buy?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Thanks,[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Phil[/SIZE]
Rolls - 6v 250 AH
http://www.rollsbattery.com/battery/s6-275agm/
 
I seems that a lot of the 6v vs. 12v comparisons are between batteries that differ more than in just voltage. Comparing two 12v starting batteries or two 12v dual-purpose batteries with two 6-volt AGM deep cycle batteries is a meaningless comparison since they are designed for different uses.

Let's compare apples to apples. That would mean comparing only same-technology deep cycle batteries, regardless of the battery voltage. Let's compare two 6v (in series) and two 12v (in parallel) where the battery technology, size and weight of each battery, battery type, and amp-hour rating are the same.

If there is any difference, I'd bet it's because the two 6v batteries have larger cells, given that they have only half as many per battery as the 12v batteries. Having larger and fewer total cells means the 6v batteries are more sturdy with thicker plates that will last longer. Some folks say thicker plates may also help with holding a charge, better re-charging, and better handling deeper discharges. But in any event, 6v true deep cycle batteries are more common and in stock on the shelf and easier to purchase than true deep cycle 12 volt batteries.

My opinion only.
 
It’s a complicated topic, indeed. I’ve been following the various battery threads with interest as I think my batteries have another year in them at best. I recently installed a Victron BMV 712 along with their MPPT controller and added more solar for a total of 320 watts on the roof. With the battery monitor I’m seeing what I already knew, my Dometic fridge is killing my batteries. With bright sun and moderate temps I’m fine, but here in the east in the hot humid summer it’s a problem. Not trying to steal this thread, just some background on why I think I need better batteries with more Ah. Vic’s Rolls 6 volt vs the US Battery now used by FWC provides 37 additional Ah at the trade off of an additional 10 pounds each in weight. I just lost close to 15 pounds by switching my solar setup, some maybe it’s a win win lol. FWC’s price seems to be high, the going rate for the US AGM2000 is $300 with free shipping. The Rolls are about 10% more.

Dean
 
Vic Harder said:
. . . FLA is more of a hassle than most of us are willing to put up with . . .
Vic, I don't understand the hassle of FLA. My GC2 are 5 years old and the only 'hassle' for me is an equalizing charge in spring and fall, followed by water top up. Other than that they are left alone; thats a mighty small hassle for the cost differential between AGM and FLA. I would be checking my batteries twice a year anyway.

And venting wouldn't be necessary because I loose < 50 ml of water out of each cell in half a year of use.

jim
 
JaSAn said:
Vic, I don't understand the hassle of FLA. My GC2 are 5 years old and the only 'hassle' for me is an equalizing charge in spring and fall, followed by water top up. Other than that they are left alone; thats a mighty small hassle for the cost differential between AGM and FLA. I would be checking my batteries twice a year anyway.

And venting wouldn't be necessary because I loose < 50 ml of water out of each cell in half a year of use.

jim

From my uninformed view...why screw around with a "FLA" battery when there are AGM batteries? Monitoring electrolyte levels and adding distilled or de-ionized water on a "as needed" basis is a pain...not to mention any boil over..our humidity is often 15%; loss of liquid is a certainty..

Add to that, a FWC tech said they would not use an FLA in a confined space like a camper due to the off-gassing and specifically he said "ammonia" gas...I did not know that ammonia was produced..but regardless none of the gases issuing from a battery are beneficial to your health....

Hey to each their own...put your money on the bar and name your poison... :D

Phil
 
JaSAn said:
Vic, I don't understand the hassle of FLA. My GC2 are 5 years old and the only 'hassle' for me is an equalizing charge in spring and fall, followed by water top up. Other than that they are left alone; thats a mighty small hassle for the cost differential between AGM and FLA. I would be checking my batteries twice a year anyway.

And venting wouldn't be necessary because I loose < 50 ml of water out of each cell in half a year of use.

jim
Jim, if you are inclined to monitor the batteries fluid levels and check specific gravity, then FLA batteries in a vented enclosure are a great option indeed. I was targeting my thoughts at most of us here who don't even have good battery monitors, never mind the inclination to get battery acid on themselves. :unsure:
 
esimmers said:
I seems that a lot of the 6v vs. 12v comparisons are between batteries that differ more than in just voltage. Comparing two 12v starting batteries or two 12v dual-purpose batteries with two 6-volt AGM deep cycle batteries is a meaningless comparison since they are designed for different uses.

Let's compare apples to apples. That would mean comparing only same-technology deep cycle batteries, regardless of the battery voltage. Let's compare two 6v (in series) and two 12v (in parallel) where the battery technology, size and weight of each battery, battery type, and amp-hour rating are the same.

If there is any difference, I'd bet it's because the two 6v batteries have larger cells, given that they have only half as many per battery as the 12v batteries. Having larger and fewer total cells means the 6v batteries are more sturdy with thicker plates that will last longer. Some folks say thicker plates may also help with holding a charge, better re-charging, and better handling deeper discharges. But in any event, 6v true deep cycle batteries are more common and in stock on the shelf and easier to purchase than true deep cycle 12 volt batteries.

My opinion only.
And its a good opinion, in my opinion!
 
Here's another consideration when deciding between two 6v batteries in series and two 12v batteries in parallel. If one cell in one of the 12v batteries goes dead, you can disconnect the defective battery and still get 12 volts from the remaining battery. On the other hand, if one cell in one of two 6v batteries connected in series goes bad, you're out of luck since both 6v batteries are needed in series to create a 12v output.

Rather than spending too much time fussing about all this, I recommend either just go camping or relax and have a beer. Or both!
 
^ I've purchased 2x12v with that in mind - what if one cell craps out - tho it hasn't happened yet. But being able to use just a single 12v has been handy to temporarily power up the camper during off season or it's inverter during a power outage or to carry around in the trunk when the car had a flaky alternator. And I might just retire one early to use for the home alarm or some other 12v device.

I've also purchased 2x12v because they were RV/Marine and thought that type would suit frequent heavy inverter use (not a consideration often mentioned). Plus somewhere I picked up the idea that as a corollary/consequence of the design ability for high rate discharge is the ability to accept a fast charge (something I wanted). But don't ask me for a link.

Last batteries purchased are 2x6v. They don't have an AH rating, only a couple reserve capacity listed but the size is similar to ~110 in a 12v. Gotta say tho, using my hopelessly old school metric of, "do they work" and "do they limit want I want to do", I'm happy them so far. We camped for 5 nights with them (a personal lifetime record by far) all without charging. Pass the Koolaid.

These are FLA btw. I'm gonna hate the off gassing if it corrodes the cabling, the one big dislike for me.

Venting is important. I'm not surprised FWC recommends AGMs, what with their interior placement and in a space with electrical devices. My batts are outside the living space and I don't be surprised if JaSAn's are also. In my world AGMs should be compartment vent anyway (per Lifeline faqs) and not enclosed together with an inverter etc (per GoPower eg manual), but it's a lonely world

AGMs are great. I went down the battery research rabbit hole years ago and came back out happy to pay for a premium brand, which I did. Next set were FLA. Reasons being, lower cost and "sufficient enough is good enough". Kinda the same mentality that put me into, and keeps me, in a FWC type camper as opposed to something "better".

Finally, a story about battery care... We had an electric stand up forklift at work. It had a large, tall, 24v(?) FLA battery bank. That machine worked hard and was charged hard, prob the charger was faulty. Usually, when someone actually checked, topping up the electrolyte took 1-2 gallons of distilled water, or more (!). That forklift was old when we got it and it may have had a new battery bank then, IDK, but it was used and abused it for another 21 yrs before replacing the pack. Who knows how long it could have lasted, had it been better cared for.

EDITED to add links
 
At least on my '16 Hawk with side dinette the battery box [pass side front corner] is vented [screened] and has a neoprene seal on the box lid.. Vents into bed of truck...

Not certain of the forklift story message....most of us have had batteries croak in 5-6+ years...hope nobody expects 21 year battery life. :D

Phil
 
Energy storage is a nut many squirrels have been trying to crack; most notably Mr. Musk. The genius who breaks the nut, will be a billionaire many times over, surpassing Bezos. No need for tonight's $1B Mega Millions.

IMHO, FLA batteries are a non-starter, and off-topic, battery for a slide-in, bolt-on pop-up campers. When batteries are stowed inside these campers, off-gasing can be a very life-threatening health issue. Seriously, you do not want to down this path for your health. FLA batteries MUST be stowed in a well ventilated area where gases are not going to be inhaled; not your typical pop-up camper setup.

IMO, Vic is our resident, non-EE, all thing electrical/solar guru. Sorry to put that label on you Vic, but, you've earned it through research and hard work.

Bill
 

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