Fleece as soft-side insulation?

MarkBC,

Do you have access to a thermal imaging camera? It would be interesting to see a photo of the heat loss from these campers, so we would know where to focus our insulating efforts. (I know the pop top is the first place to start, but at what point do we move on to the window or the wood bottom.)

I have access to the camera, just not a camper. :( 2012 is coming quickly though. :D
 
^

According to the link noted above, the emissivity of glass is 5%, aluminum 90%. Major difference.


Right. Glass starts getting opaque in the thermal IR, although it is dependent on what type of glass you have. Anyway, the glass could indeed be an okay insulator, and if it registers as cold on the thermometer, it no doubt is.
 
Do you have access to a thermal imaging camera? It would be interesting to see a photo of the heat loss from these campers, so we would know where to focus our insulating efforts. (I know the pop top is the first place to start, but at what point do we move on to the window or the wood bottom.)

We do have a FLIR camera at work. Though I'm effectively "retired", I'm actually on a "Leave of Absence" and so technically still an employee. I bet that if the FLIR isn't being used they'd let me borrow it. I don't remember what kind of interface it has, but I've used it before -- to record temperature grandients caused by an evaporating pool of solvent on metal!


According to the link noted above, the emissivity of glass is 5%, aluminum 90%. Major difference.

OK, thanks -- they are very different. But aren't the numbers the other way around? Aluminum has a very low emissivity and glass has a high emissivity. Aluminum has a high reflectivity.

I found a handy table here:

Emissivity Coefficients of some common Materials

Fortunately, for the functioning of an IR thermometer, a lot/most common materials have emissivity >0.9, and it's only polished/shiny metals that have very-low emissivity of <0.1.
Interestingly, hardly anything is in the middle, except oxidized/rough metal and rocks.

OK, so bottom-line, I can probably use the IR thermometer to read for comparison of the temperatures of glass and plastic...and probably the painted aluminum sides/roof of the camper will have high emissivity, too, or close enough.

Glass starts getting opaque in the thermal IR, although it is dependent on what type of glass you have. Anyway, the glass could indeed be an okay insulator

OK, so glass is a good insulator against transmission of IR radiation (i.e., opaque to it -- which is why/how glass greenhouses work), but it's not a good insulator against heat-transfer by conduction (which is why homes have double-pane glass). But since the basis for my analysis is that all that matters (as a measure of overall insulating ability) is the external temperature of a camper surface, glass will give the same response as the plastic soft-sides, which is good. :)

Man...I wish I had a lab tech to carry this out! I'm much more interested in designing experiments and analyzing their output than actually conducting experiments.
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I need an intern! Damn, I'm lazy!
 
I would be very interested in some FLIR images while you are doing the tests. Maybe you could also grab a lab tech while you are borrowing the FLIR. ;)

And yes, I was thinking about reflectivity, not emissivity. I often get lost in my mind.
 
I often get lost in my mind.

That's OK...as long as you can find your way out again. ;)
 
I'm out of work right now......


Thats a bummer.

If I were rich, or at least had more money than I do, I would hire you to just explain things to me. You could follow me around, or maybe I would follow you, and you could tell me how things work. Seriously.
 
How much does the intern position pay? I'm out of work right now......

Sorry, man.
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I'm just a retired guy without a research budget...drawing down my life savings for this study.
 
Material progress: I received the Adventure Medical Survival Blanket today, which is what I'm going to use as the reflective component of my super-insulated-but-flexible solution.
51y09Mmd-nL._SS500_.jpg

It's lighter-weight/thinner than I expected -- the polyethylene to which the aluminum is deposited/bonded is about the weight of a poly garbage bag. But that's not a bad thing, since it means it won't detract from the flexibility/stowability of the fleece to which it'll be attached.

One thing about these modern "space blankets" -- unlike the ancient ones from past decades -- is that it's based on polyethylene rather than Mylar. Polyethylene is much less brittle than Mylar so less prone to catastrophic tearing and more flexible and quiet.
 
[/b]Has anyone tried fleece as soft-side insulation?[/b]
[/quote]
Yes
We bought a fleece King Sized Blanket and spent more on velcro than the fleece. A little measuring, some cutting and sewing and we had liners. We tried it and thought it made a difference but it was 'more stuff to pack' . The funny thing is we haven't taken them with us since, sort of elimination by 'none use'. I do wear a fleece toque when it is freezing out instead.:0)
Also bought three zip together sleeping bags, two summer and one winter, in summer the light bags go on top and in the winter the winter one goes on top with lots of room for both of us. We don't usually need to turn the furnace on at night (lets us appreciate the quiet) but it goes on first thing in the am when it is freezing.
 
Material progress: I received the Adventure Medical Survival Blanket today, which is what I'm going to use as the reflective component of my super-insulated-but-flexible solution.
51y09Mmd-nL._SS500_.jpg

It's lighter-weight/thinner than I expected -- the polyethylene to which the aluminum is deposited/bonded is about the weight of a poly garbage bag. But that's not a bad thing, since it means it won't detract from the flexibility/stowability of the fleece to which it'll be attached.

One thing about these modern "space blankets" -- unlike the ancient ones from past decades -- is that it's based on polyethylene rather than Mylar. Polyethylene is much less brittle than Mylar so less prone to catastrophic tearing and more flexible and quiet.


SOL? Or up shits creek without a paddle?
 
Anxious for the final outcome!!! I've used Reflectix in the old camper but ended up using 1/2" Styrofoam board as it worked the best and my last winter trip was 25 below!!!

Yes, it's a pain to store, put up & take down but what a difference!!!! I used to help my brother on his trap line in Alaska. He had several cabins with outhouses along the route. The toilet seats were made out of Styrofoam. Sit down at 50 below and instant warmth!!!

I will be needing to do something for my new to me SunLite so I want to see how this turns out first!!!
 
SOL? Or up shits creek without a paddle?

Apparently, in the parlance of Adventure Medical, SOL = "Survive Outdoors Longer"....but yeah, it does seem like an odd choice of acronyms.
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Thats a bummer.

If I were rich, or at least had more money than I do, I would hire you to just explain things to me. You could follow me around, or maybe I would follow you, and you could tell me how things work. Seriously.

Sorry, man.
sad.gif

I'm just a retired guy without a research budget...drawing down my life savings for this study.

Thanks, guys. That was mostly a tongue in cheek reply.

On the little engine when on the dyno we took to using a spot of flat black paint on all of the locations that we wanted temps off of with the IR gun. The brainiacs concluded that the possible error from doing that was "in the noise" where the error from different emmissivities most definitely were not.
 
On the little engine when on the dyno we took to using a spot of flat black paint on all of the locations that we wanted temps off of with the IR gun. The brainiacs concluded that the possible error from doing that was "in the noise" where the error from different emmissivities most definitely were not.

That's a good idea, thanks.
In background reading I saw another approach to the same end was a piece of black tape stuck on the reflective/metallic surface (but not a hot surface like an engine) that would otherwise give a bad reading.
 
More material progress towards my Grand Experiment today:
  • I bought fleece! I think I'll use it folded over, double-thick, to double the insulation value, so I bought 7 yards (3+ yards for each side) -- the fabric is 58" wide.
  • I got permission to borrow my (former) company's FLIR IR camera, so I'll be able to generate thermal images of the camper exterior, which will at least give qualitative maps of cool and warm spots.
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I don't plan to start any tests until next week -- Wednesday I'm going down to my folks (Redding, CA) for a long T-day weekend.

No word yet from Stan@FourWheel about borrowing Acrtic Pack for the test, though I sent him a P.M. about it.
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I got permission to borrow my (former) company's FLIR IR camera, so I'll be able to generate thermal images of the camper exterior, which will at least give qualitative maps of cool and warm spots.
smile.gif



YES!!!
 
Even more material progress:

Stan@fourwheel just told me that FWC has a couple of extra pieces of Arctic Pack material that I can use (after sewing together) for my experiment, so he'll send them to me. Yay!
Thanks, Stan -- you are the man!
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This is gonna be so cool...or warm, depending.
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Yeah, I know -- I'm a nerd...and to think I used to get paid to be a nerd!
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And to think FWC and ATC get to look at the results of your research nearly cost free. We all win though in the end.

After this weekend I realized if I'm going to spend a lot of time on the road in the winter some type of insulation really would be a good idea.
 
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