Fleece as soft-side insulation?

[Lighthawk]

But -- I have an infrared thermometer, I know how to use it, and I'm the kind of guy who's liable to use it!

...And mine has a hair-trigger.

You didn't tell us you had a permit for a concealed carry.

I'm interested to learn what your findings are. Tomorrow's weather should be helpful.

And "No, we will not feed you for research!" However, we will barter for pecan pie.

 

[MarkBC]

We (the home builder I work for) are using a form of insulated aluminum foil in the house we are currently building. Although we are only using it under the heated floor, not in the walls or the ceiling.

One thing to remember about radiant heat: It's proportional to T4 = T x T x T x T (where "T" is the temperature of the object). The point of this is that "HOT" things radiate a lot more BTUs/hour than warm things.
Hot things like: pizza-delivery, your face, in-floor heating systems.

Will this be completed tonight? Tomorrow?

No, no, no! I am a very slow and lazy -- that is, methodical -- researcher (amazing I managed to keep my job for 30+ years

)...but when I do it it'll be right (which is how I managed to keep my job for 30+ years).

I won't do this experiment until/unless the outside temperature is well below freezing -- in Bend it's not cold if it's above freezing.
For one thing, I haven't bought the fleece yet...maybe I will tomorrow. I want to do these tests all on the same night and/or with identical outdoor temperatures, and I'm not ready yet. Research is a slowww process.

Or as Principal Seymour Skinner says of Science: "All the fun of sitting still, being quiet, writing down numbers. Yes science has it all."...ask highz for confirmation on this point.

 

[MarkBC]

One of highz's radiant-barrier-material links provided this interesting section:
Heatsheets-On-A-Roll

"Made from polyethylene film and coated with vapor-deposited aluminum, our recyclable Heatsheets® reflect up to 97% of your body heat." 6-foot x 4-foot sheets.

These are the kind of ~disposable radiant-heat barriers that athletes might wrap around themselves after an event in cold weather and/or to keep from cooling off too quickly.
The smallest quantity is a 25-sheet roll and a minimum purchase of 2 rolls at $26.25/roll....and I'd only need a couple of sheets to line the soft-sides of my camper.

Still....

 

[Overland Hadley]

"All the fun of sitting still, being quiet, writing down numbers. Yes science has it all."


I understand. I was just being annoying.

 

[Overland Hadley]

The smallest quantity is a 25-sheet roll and a minimum purchase of 2 rolls at $26.25/roll....and I'd only need a couple of sheets to line the soft-sides of my camper.

Still....


I might be interested in buying a few sheets. I like the fact that these could be left in place when the top is dropped.

If we got a few members together we could go through this stuff pretty quick.

 

[ski3pin]

I wrote this when I posted about building our arctic/cold weather pack:

"As with other projects posted here, I expect that many will come up with suggestions for improvements both in materials and designs - great!"

You folks are making my dreams come true................and with science! Thanks!

Mr. BC, I think "will research for fun" might be accurate also!

 

[ntsqd]

A no numbers data point (anecdotal?):
I typically camp sleeping in the back of Patch under it's fiberglass shell. I've twice had 2.5 gal water jugs freeze solid with me in there (T-Day weekend, Eureka Dune both times). The shell is old enough that it does not have the glued-on carpet liner. So ~1/4" of fiberglass for "insulation", except for the windows.

About those windows, my then girlfriend now wife didn't like "feeling like she was in a fishbowl" while dressing/undressing in the shell. This despite my assurances that my testing had revealed (um... ) that so long as the lighting bias favored outside that seeing in thru the tinted windows was nearly impossible. And since we were scheduled to spend New Years in Kelso Valley, CA with a bunch of others she wanted curtains of some sort. While wondering thru Albertson's one day they had 40" x 60" fleece throw blankets on sale, 3 for $9, I bought 6 of them. These were fairly thin blankets, what I would call slightly less than mid-weight in fleece clothing terms. I made 4 curtains out of those by folding them in 1/2 length-wise and sewing them together along with sewing a velcro strip along the top and spots of velcro along the bottom. At the cab to shell interface the shell has a rubber lip instead of a window, so "exterior" metal was exposed to the inside. Nice conductive path, wonder why it doesn't seem to matter when it's hot?

The difference inside the shell was astonishing! Where we were camped that first trip with the curtains in Kelso Valley the muddy ground would be frozen solid on the surface by about 7pm. I was having to unzip and open our cold weather bag to keep from sweating. It's rare that I've ever had too much sleeping bag for winter conditions. This time was one of them!

Observation:
All of my newer sleeping bags have an aluminized nylon cloth at least on the bottom of the inside, if not the whole interior. I'm guessing that's not an accident.

Some time ago this topic came up on Expo with reference to the OZ built trucks. I suggested something similar to an Arctic Pack liner, but made with diagonal baffles like how sleeping bags are made. I plan to make another set of curtains for the FJ60's windows and I plan to use fleece again. (Having worked for Pataloha when this material first came out I have a hard time not calling it by it's first name, Bunting.) If I can find some of the aluminized nylon fabric I will line the inside of the curtains with it, though I may put something with a pattern over it. Sewing bunting is not for the inexperienced. I learned this the hard way. It bunches something terrible. If you're not a competent sewer (as I am not) and you care about cosmetics I would strongly advise seeking out a sewer at the upper end of skill level for assistance or to have do that work.

 

[chnlisle]

I've heard if you make a tent hat out of it and sit in a pyramid it will keep you warm, intuitive and very cosmic. Also the government won't steal your thoughts so an all aluminum camper makes sense to me. I'm on my way to Sedona to try it out.

 

[MarkBC]

I've heard if you make a tent hat out of it and sit in a pyramid it will keep you warm, intuitive and very cosmic. Also the government won't steal your thoughts so an all aluminum camper makes sense to me. I'm on my way to Sedona to try it out.

Absolutely! And that pyramid will keep your razor blades sharp and food fresh, too!
This week I saw a "Mythbusters" rerun in which they tested "pyramid power". Ummm....guess how it turned out.

And then there's the Simpsons episode in which Bart was given the drug "Focusyn" to address his ADD. His new-found ability to "focus" permitted him to realize (among other things) that Major League Baseball was spying on them, so he encased himself in aluminum to foil their surveillance. Turns out he was right.

BTW: Speaking of science...and The Simpsons...super-genius Stephen Hawking called The Simpsons "the best thing on American television". And who knows quality television better than a cosmologist?!

 

[MarkBC]

I expect that many will come up with suggestions for improvements both in materials and designs - great!"
Mr. BC, I think "will research for fun" might be accurate also!

While I think that fleece (or fleece+foil?) might be an improvement in "materials", there's no way I'll even match the "design". My sewing skills and/or patience to learn/carry-through are not up to that task.

And yes, I do enjoy research!

I'd still be doing it professionally if my role hadn't morphed into tedium.

A no numbers data point (anecdotal?):
.... fleece throw blankets on sale...I made 4 curtains out of those....
The difference inside the shell was astonishing! Where we were camped that first trip with the curtains in Kelso Valley the muddy ground would be frozen solid on the surface by about 7pm. I was having to unzip and open our cold weather bag to keep from sweating. It's rare that I've ever had too much sleeping bag for winter conditions. This time was one of them!
Observation:
All of my newer sleeping bags have an aluminized nylon cloth at least on the bottom of the inside, if not the whole interior. I'm guessing that's not an accident.

Thanks for the input, ntsqd.

 

[MarkBC]

I might be interested in buying a few sheets. I like the fact that these could be left in place when the top is dropped.
If we got a few members together we could go through this stuff pretty quick.

OK, I found a product manufactured by AFM (who make "Heatsheets-on-a-Roll") sold as individual "blankets":
Adventure Medical SOL Emergency Blanket $5/each from Amazon.com...I'm going to order two. The are available in two different sizes blankets as well as in a "bivi" form.

On AFM's website they also talk about a related-but-different product called "Silver-Lining" in which the aluminized polyethylene is bonded to an "ultra-light non-woven polypropylene" and they sell it to incorporate into garments, etc., so it's obviously intended to be durable enough for flexing, long-term use, etc....and this might make it more-suitable for "lamination" of some type to fleece (or whatever) as soft-side camper insulation. It looks like it's intended to be sold to manufacturers, but I'm gonna send them an e-mail and ask if there's a source of a few yards to a consumer.

 

[highz]

Mark, your experiment sounds intriguing. Is there anyone near you with one of FWC's Arctic Packs? It would be interesting to test that material, too.

 

[MarkBC]

Is there anyone near you with one of FWC's Arctic Packs? It would be interesting to test that material, too.

I don't know...

...
But you're right -- I'd want to test Arctic Pack to make this a thorough and more-worthwhile test.
The only two WTWers I know in Bend are Dirty Dog and Home Skillet, and both of them have custom rigs.

IS ANYBODY IN CENTRAL OREGON WITH A HAWK-SIZED ARTIC PACK WILLING TO ALLOW YOUR "PACK" TO PARTICIPATE IN THIS GRAND EXPERIMENT?

Sorry for yelling...

 

[highz]

Hey, Stan the Man, can the shop spare a sample of Arctic Pack fabric for this grand experiment?

 

[MarkBC]

Hey, Stan the Man, can the shop spare a sample of Arctic Pack fabric for this grand experiment?

A plain, un-sewn, piece about 2.5 x 9 feet would do...though if you want to send a real Arctic Pack that would be fine, too.
Either way, I'd send it back when the experiment was complete.

 

[Overland Hadley]

Hey, Stan the Man, can the shop spare a sample of Arctic Pack fabric for this grand experiment?


Could you do this Stan?

It would be some free testing for future improvements in the arctic pack, or it might prove that your fabric is the best and we should all run out and get your arctic packs.

 

[Overland Hadley]

The difference inside the shell was astonishing!


Thanks for chiming in ntsqd! Always enjoy reading your posts.

 

[Lighthawk]

Now you have me anticipating some serious research, Mark.

You probably are ahead of me on this. I was thinking that when you run your test of assorted materials, it would be interesting to get readings on the non-insulated side liner, the roof and the windows. Sort of a baseline of what the stock camper insulation values are.

I'm thinking the windows are at least as big a heat loss as the bare side liner. Seems like I read somewhere that standard glass = R1

 

[MarkBC]

Now you have me anticipating some serious research, Mark.
You probably are ahead of me on this. I was thinking that when you run your test of assorted materials, it would be interesting to get readings on the non-insulated side liner, the roof and the windows. Sort of a baseline of what the stock camper insulation values are.
I'm thinking the windows are at least as big a heat loss as the bare side liner. Seems like I read somewhere that standard glass = R1

I hadn't yet put it in my "experimental plan", but yes, taking measurements of the soft-side with no insulation as a baseline will also be included. Thanks for the reminder.

Temperature measurements of surfaces other than the soft-side are a good idea...
....but one potential problem is from how IR thermometers work. They infer the temperature of the surface based on the infrared measured radiating from that surface. However, different surfaces radiate different amounts of IR radiation at the same temperature -- they have different "emissivity". I think that most surfaces are close-enough, otherwise an IR thermometer wouldn't be much good. But I think that shiny metal surfaces do have a big deviation from average emissivity -- that's why aluminum foil is good for reflecting radiant heat...and anything that reflects well doesn't radiate well. Like, if you have a piece of shiny metal and a piece of plastic at the same actual temperature, an IR thermometer will read that the plastic is warmer (apparently, that is) than the metal because the metal radiates less IR.
And I wonder if glass -- the windows -- also deviate from the emissivity found for most surfaces. I don't know...
Not being misled by data -- and drawing the wrong conclusions -- is important to me. I'd rather draw no conclusion -- "I don't know" -- than say something that's wrong. (For example: If I point the IR thermometer at the glass window and it reads as cooler than the soft-side, that implies that less heat is passing through it...or is it really just radiating less heat but is actually warmer than the soft-side...and if it's warmer that means that heat is passing through it faster -- it still transfers heat to the outside air by conduction-contact with the outside air.)

I'll do a little background reading on measuring temperature of surfaces with an IR thermometer. I'll still take the measurements of all surfaces anyway...but I may not share the results if I think they're misleading.

 

[Overland Hadley]

^

According to the link noted above, the emissivity of glass is 5%, aluminum 90%. Major difference.