Flexible panels direct mount to the roof.

I do not think that bonding to the roof is an assured heat-sink unless what you've used to do the bonding with is thermally conductive. It would shock me immensely to learn that all VHB tapes are good thermal conductors. I'd had a couple "object lessons" in lack of thermal conduction. Substances that were assumed to be good conductors turned out to not be all that good, or even good enough. In one case that was an AAA moment as there was no self recovery possible (it let the smoke out of an ignition module with no spare on board). Made me pretty late to work that day.

Say that you've used a version of VHB that has some thickness to it. Perfectly valid choice to make as it will tolerate the two surfaces not being exactly flat better than any of the extremely thin versions. Except that this thickness comes in the form of a foam. Not exactly a good conductor when foam is more generally employed as an insulator! No doubt there are thermally conductive foams, but you can't assume that the foam used in VHB tape is that type. Then consider that this thicker VHB tape has created a small air gap between the backside of the panel and the roof skin. This gap will likely vary randomly from the tape thickness down to zero. A big part of why a large air gap (as compared to the tiny air gap created by the tape) works is because of an air exchange. The air heated by the backside of the PV panel expands and flows out from under the PV panel and is replaced by cooler ambient air. This is exactly the "cooling" process employed by Land Rover "Safari Top"'s. The air gap acts to exchange heated air with ambient creating a self-renewing form of insulation to keep the cabin cooler. The small air gap created by a thick VHB tape will act more as a thermal insulator than as a conductor of heat.

Even a coating of paint impedes thermal conduction, and the more layers of different materials there are in the conduction path the slower the thermal conduction rate. Can think of it like a series of energy conversions where you loose efficiency with each conversion. Components that are designed to be heat-sinks are deliberately bare metal, and the components attached to them are usually bare metal as well. There usually is a thermally conductive grease or adhesive smeared between them. It's purpose it to eliminate any tiny air gap(s) that might exist so as to maximize the contact surface and make the conduction as efficient as possible.

So bonding PV's to the roof skin might serve as a bit of a heat sink, but the common way that it has been described as being done on this forum is a vastly inefficient heat-sink. There is a lot of performance being left on the table. Would it be worth the trouble to address this inefficiency and increase the thermal dissipation of the PV panels? I have no idea. I've never done such an experiment. I simply go as far down that path as I'm willing to go and accept the results. I expect that others will have different points where they stop chasing the performance details (ROTI) and move on.
 
images


effective heat dissapation.
 
One thing for you all to consider that is a trick I have used before. I have used the 3M scotch 33 electric tape as a first layer on to a surface I don't want to screw up. So for instance put this Etape down on your roof and then put a layer of the double sticky tape on top. If you ever want to get rid of the double sticky tape just peel up the electric tape. After a year or two the E tape will leave a bit of residue (remove with rubbing alcohol) but not that bad. Also, Im a diver for the Navy and we use that tape for EVERYTHING. super sticky, waterproof, even sticks underwater too its self, and comes back up with very little residue. I had used this on my motorcycle to attach a garage remote to the painted tank. I wanted an easy way to remove it if I wanted. I put a layer of this down then double sticky tape to the remote. Once that remote died I removed the E tape and started over with a new remote. So, anyway your mileage might vary but Im a believer.

You can get different colors in scotch 35, including white. I think it will work as well but don't have a lot of experience with it.




Steve
 
steve whiteside said:
One thing for you all to consider that is a trick I have used before. I have used the 3M scotch 33 electric tape as a first layer on to a surface I don't want to screw up. So for instance put this Etape down on your roof and then put a layer of the double sticky tape on top. If you ever want to get rid of the double sticky tape just peel up the electric tape. After a year or two the E tape will leave a bit of residue (remove with rubbing alcohol) but not that bad. Also, Im a diver for the Navy and we use that tape for EVERYTHING. super sticky, waterproof, even sticks underwater too its self, and comes back up with very little residue. I had used this on my motorcycle to attach a garage remote to the painted tank. I wanted an easy way to remove it if I wanted. I put a layer of this down then double sticky tape to the remote. Once that remote died I removed the E tape and started over with a new remote. So, anyway your mileage might vary but Im a believer.

You can get different colors in scotch 35, including white. I think it will work as well but don't have a lot of experience with it.




Steve
Steve, I think that your idea of using 3M 33 tape is a very good idea for non critical applications, for example, temporarily wrapping a plug and socket connection and then spreading a sealant over it - for easy removal later on. But I wouldn;t consider using electrical tape as a first layer for, say, mounting a solar panel, which I think you're referring to. While a more aggresive double stick tape might hold a panel in place, the 3M 33 (probably the best electrical tape on the market) won't hold up long term, in a hostile outdoor environment. I've used it for over 25 years, on electrical connections and also to create tempoary bonds on various materials and surfaces during open ocean crossings of long duration. I can assure you it will peel apart eventually and wind up flapping in the wind if put to the test. But it is great stuff as you suggest - just not as a permanent first layer bond.

Rich
 
ri-f said:
Steve, I think that your idea of using 3M 33 tape is a very good idea for non critical applications, for example, temporarily wrapping a plug and socket connection and then spreading a sealant over it - for easy removal later on. But I wouldn;t consider using electrical tape as a first layer for, say, mounting a solar panel, which I think you're referring to. While a more aggresive double stick tape might hold a panel in place, the 3M 33 (probably the best electrical tape on the market) won't hold up long term, in a hostile outdoor environment. I've used it for over 25 years, on electrical connections and also to create tempoary bonds on various materials and surfaces during open ocean crossings of long duration. I can assure you it will peel apart eventually and wind up flapping in the wind if put to the test. But it is great stuff as you suggest - just not as a permanent first layer bond.

Rich
Good points! Id hate to see my panels flapping along behind my camper like a flag in the wind! Steve
 
This is a great discussion on mounting flexible panels - far better than anything I found on the web before I mounted my panels.

Come early summer, I expect to get some real world data. I will post it when I get it.

We expect to have our vaccinations by then and will travel into Eastern Oregon where there's lots of sun and heat. I had planned to monitor temperatures with a USB logger, but it is a retrieve and download device. Recent postings on some Bluetooth weather data loggers grabbed my attention: https://www.wanderthewest.com/forum/topic/21264-environmental-monitoring-logging/ . I got one for weather info in the Fleet, but I'll also use it to monitor temperatures under the panels. With a few calculations, my ancient Gossen incident light meter will give a reasonable measurement of solar irradiance. Add in ambient temperature and I should get a good picture of panel performance. This is gonna be fun.
 
Jack said:
...Bluetooth weather data loggers grabbed my attention: https://www.wanderthewest.com/forum/topic/21264-environmental-monitoring-logging/ . I got one for weather info in the Fleet, but I'll also use it to monitor temperatures under the panels. With a few calculations, my ancient Gossen incident light meter will give a reasonable measurement of solar irradiance. Add in ambient temperature and I should get a good picture of panel performance. This is gonna be fun.
Sounds like you're a guy that knows how to have good time! Just curious - What type of panels did you install (i.e., flexible, semi flexible, rigid) and how did you mount them (raised off roof a bit with an air gap, or direct to the roof with no air gap)? Or both?. To get an efficiency comparison, it would be good to see the results of two identical panels mounted (and measured) both ways, that is, both with and without an air gap under the panels. Although I'm not sure if you'll be able to measure the temp under the panel if it is a flexible panel glued directly to the roof with no gap. Good luck with your portable lab next summer.

Rich
 
ri-f said:
Sounds like you're a guy that knows how to have good time! Just curious - What type of panels did you install (i.e., flexible, semi flexible, rigid) and how did you mount them (raised off roof a bit with an air gap, or direct to the roof with no air gap)? Or both?. To get an efficiency comparison, it would be good to see the results of two identical panels mounted (and measured) both ways, that is, both with and without an air gap under the panels. Although I'm not sure if you'll be able to measure the temp under the panel if it is a flexible panel glued directly to the roof with no gap. Good luck with your portable lab next summer.

Rich
I mounted 3 100W flexible HQST panels with velcro. My first post in this topic provides more detail.

They are all mounted the same way. It looks like I will be able to measure the underside of the panels and the roof temperature independently.

Rich, thanks for your suggestion.

I can seal the the edges of one panel with an easy to remove foam tape. I don't think much heat will transfer through the velcro tape, and my hope is that the heat transfer coefficient of the trapped air is similar to that of the tape used to directly mount a panel. Your take, Rich?

I'll need to bring a ladder, so this may be my excuse to get an accordion ladder. I can alternately connect the sealed panel and an unsealed panel and take readings off the Victron MPPT. We just got scheduled to get vaccinated in a few days and my wife and I should be fully protected by late March (a lot earlier than we had imagined) so Saline Valley in early April is the plan. Plenty of heat and sun there.
 
Jack, I do think that there will be little change in the temp coefficient, since you are only providing an air gap the height of your velcro straps. You'd likely see more of a difference with, say, a 1-2 inch gap as if you had mounted the panels on an aluminum z-bar frame. I know that scientific papers in this subject matter indicate that a 4 inch free-air gap is ideal for thermodynamic flow to dissapate heat, which will improve cell efficiency. I
Of course that is not practical for a camper roof install. But 1-2 inches is practical and typical. So, just as a test, on a sunny hot day, it might be interesting to temporarily un-velcro one of your panels and raise it 1 to 2 inches off the roof with some 2x4 blocks, and take some measurements that way. Then you'll know if there is any significant difference in incoming current between that and the panels with no air flow. If there was, say, a temp differential that resulted in a 20% efficiency increase, that would be valuable info. Then you'll really be having some fun!

Rich
 
Here is a link to a long build thread that started with mounting flex panels. Started out to cut & stack (like Lincoln Logs) aluminum tube attached to my Yakima tracks. Later welded by a friend but original idea was functional. My 2- flex 100W panels have held up surprisingly well after 3 years, they ably maintain my parallel 150ah LFP4 system. Not quite as efficient now but they were cheap commodity panels from Solar Blvd. I list all materials & hopefully my links are still current. I wanted airflow under my panels & an easy roof lift. Frame weighs ~5lbs, 2- panels=~10lbs, so total roof solar is ~15 lbs.
I purchased 2 of these last year which have the top cells on the market, IMO, plus improved weather resistance. I will probably install them next year. Will have to slightly reframe or add a brace as they are not the same dimension. Found $20 discount code (Cseeker), worked last year. Consideration ... if u need to replace a panel(s), what will be required?

https://www.expertpower.us/collections/solar-panels/products/100w-solar-panel

https://www.wanderthewest.com/forum/topic/17753-grandby-shell-build-it-takes-a-village-a-bit-more-install-info-zero-declination-drop-down-shower-curtain/?hl=%2Btakes+%2Bvillage
 
We used 3M VSB 4950 tape. to tape our 26 pound Renogy 150 pound soler panel to the roof of our Eagle which is mounted on our Tacoma full time February 2016. 36,556 miles ago.
I check it onece a month and it is still solid on the roof.

If you want to see the details click on the following link: Renogy solid panel glued to roof.
 
Yes, heartily agree with the j-box thought. It will not be fun but I will be replacing the SAE roof outlet with an MC4 outlet (w/extra cable) as that is such a superior connection. I had a SAE prong crumble off on my roof plug, last year, only a matter of time before the roof outlet crumbles off.
 
I used a typical house wiring sealed duplex sized j-box on our old camper. That gave me room to install a two conductor terminal strip. I sealed it to the roof with 5200 and all wires exited through cable glands like RCP Jim's install. Might be where I got the idea from, don't recall. Looks like I never took a pic of it.

I'm OK with the MC4 connector, I don't like or trust the stiff wire that all of mine came with. That install was done before MC4's could be bought un-assembled.
 
ntsqd said:
I used a typical house wiring sealed duplex sized j-box on our old camper. That gave me room to install a two conductor terminal strip. I sealed it to the roof with 5200 and all wires exited through cable glands...
ntsqd - used to do exactly the same thing (terminal strips) in a j-box. Never had any issues at all within the plastic, sealed j-box itself. Even though I thought there could be a problem with condensation within the box, it never was an issue - connections were always dry and bright showing no signs of corrosion (and that was on the foredeck of a sailboat in an ocean environment with salt spray and waves washing across the deck). I've even used the bare minimum of butt connected wire covered only by weather proof heat shrink, exposed to the elements (and it worked fine for many years. The panels gave out but the wires were fine. For extreme conditions I used to use LanaCote on my electrical connections. My only issues were with delamination off my old flexible solar panels and corrosion of the connections under the sealed housing where the panel's wires exited. Of course, that was 20 years ago when flexible panels first made their exciting debut on the market and those panels typically came with bare wires and no connectors. I do believe that some of today's high-quality panels are much better when it comes to frustrating, physical delamination, and of course exponentially better when it comes to cell efficiency. So, originally I used semi-flexibles (for a curved deck), and then later used heavier weight, glass-covered rigid panels (where I had flat surfaces for mounting), and now back once again to the current generation of semi-flexibles, which have proven excellent, so far, mounted with z-bar aluminum on the roof of my camper. And while I like the idea of MC4 connectors or like you said, bare wires buried in a weatherproof j-box, I must admit that I have been using the FWC installed SAE to MC4 connection (with 90 degree bend) method and I have not had issues with either disconnection and/or corrosion. I've been in terrible hail storms, snow, rain, high winds, cold, hot, you name it, so far so good. If that changes, and I start seeing issues develop, I wouldn't hesitate to switch to a j-box, either with or without MC4s.

Rich
 
The rigid panel that I put on our old camper came with MC4's and cutting them off voided any warranty. So I bought a pre-terminated jumper off amazon and cut it instead. Both jumper wires into the j-box's terminal strip. Then much more finely stranded plated marine wire down into the camper.

I too, worried about condensation in that little box and it didn't happen for me either. Didn't stop me from checking it periodically.

Now that I can buy MC4 terminals and terminate them myself I'm not sure that I'd bother with the terminal strip. I'd just bring the good wire out thru some weather/water tight wire glands and install the MC4 terminals directly.
 
ntsqd said:
Now that I can buy MC4 terminals and terminate them myself I'm not sure that I'd bother with the terminal strip. I'd just bring the good wire out thru some weather/water tight wire glands and install the MC4 terminals directly..
Roger that.
 

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