Four wheel camper in bear country

A bear fence around your vehicle is about the best defense. Thinking that a bear cannot smell food in your camper, even in the fridge, is simply a false sense of security. If a bear wants in your camper, it will open it like a pan of Jiffy Pop and help itself to whatever is inside.

cwd
 
Good to be bear aware even in a camper. If a bear really wants in, they will get in. Have bear spray and know how to use it (works great on ornery moose too). A bear fence if you really want to be better prepared is a good idea - just remember it is there when you get up to go to the bathroom in the middle of the night! We use those all the time for small fire camps in the wilderness around the Yellowstone area. And you can always go the Doug Peacock method for food - rice and hot sauce three times a day.
 
Thanks smlobx. That is a slightly better price than what I have found.
 
Taku said:
Good to be bear aware even in a camper. If a bear really wants in, they will get in. Have bear spray and know how to use it (works great on ornery moose too). A bear fence if you really want to be better prepared is a good idea - just remember it is there when you get up to go to the bathroom in the middle of the night! We use those all the time for small fire camps in the wilderness around the Yellowstone area. And you can always go the Doug Peacock method for food - rice and hot sauce three times a day.
Click to expand...

Doug..."Hayduke"....does have a tremendous knowledge and experience with Grizzly bears...he is in my book a "stout Dude"..

Grizzly bears are the Apex Predator in most of their range and really a remarkable creature and yes they can move or tear open anything they want to...would be interested in any verified accounts of them opening up a camper in a pickup bed..

Phil
 
Black Bears are far more agile and more intelligent than Grizzly Bears. A reasonable comparison similarity is Cats vs Dogs. However, Black Bears are smarter and more agile than cats.

I have tested our Bear resistant products with both kinds of bears.

Grizzlies are brutes, Black Bears are clever and have been known to cooperate with each other to open a container (trash can, car, cabin, etc). Black Bears also see in color and when they are successful obtaining food they will use their memory of both shape and color to help identify the next target. For example if they successfully get food from a Yellow Toyota SUV the very next target is likely to be a Yellow vehicle that is or looks like a Toyota SUV.

One of my partners has long said that "we are lucky Black Bears do not have opposable thumbs, if they did we would be grubbing for food in the forest and they would be driving cars". That is perhaps a bit far fetched but maybe not as much as you might think.

Look to Yosemite for some of the worst case Black Bear stories about them getting into cars. I worked with some of their experts (as well as others in Sequoia) during the development of our products.

In areas with problem Bears the best thing to do is control smell and availability by using food storage lockers as well as fastidiously maintaining clean camp and hiding items, even used food wrappers as well as anything that remotely looks edible, from sight.

In the old days campers used to hang food. There are many documented instances where that has been shown to be ineffective.

Metal Bear boxes work when they are used correctly. For refrigerated items keep your camper clean and the Fridge closed. Better yet use an ice chest and put your cold food in it then put the ice chest in a Bear box.

Use reliable sources for Bear info and keeping food from Bears, such as the National Park Service Bear information sites.

Regards,

Craig

P.S. I have been in the business of successfully keeping food from Bears for nearly 20 years.
 
ckent323 said:
Black Bears are far more agile and more intelligent than Grizzly Bears. A reasonable comparison similarity is Cats vs Dogs. However, Black Bears are smarter and more agile than cats.

I have tested our Bear resistant products with both kinds of bears.

Grizzlies are brutes, Black Bears are clever and have been known to cooperate with each other to open a container (trash can, car, cabin, etc). Black Bears also see in color and when they are successful obtaining food they will use their memory of both shape and color to help identify the next target. For example if they successfully get food from a Yellow Toyota SUV the very next target is likely to be a Yellow vehicle that is or looks like a Toyota SUV.

One of my partners has long said that "we are lucky Black Bears do not have opposable thumbs, if they did we would be grubbing for food in the forest and they would be driving cars". That is perhaps a bit far fetched but maybe not as much as you might think.

Look to Yosemite for some of the worst case Black Bear stories about them getting into cars. I worked with some of their experts (as well as others in Sequoia) during the development of our products.

In areas with problem Bears the best thing to do is control smell and availability by using food storage lockers as well as fastidiously maintaining clean camp and hiding items, even used food wrappers as well as anything that remotely looks edible, from sight.

In the old days campers used to hang food. There are many documented instances where that has been shown to be ineffective.

Metal Bear boxes work when they are used correctly. For refrigerated items keep your camper clean and the Fridge closed. Better yet use an ice chest and put your cold food in it then put the ice chest in a Bear box.

Use reliable sources for Bear info and keeping food from Bears, such as the National Park Service Bear information sites.

Regards,

Craig

P.S. I have been in the business of successfully keeping food from Bears for nearly 20 years.
Click to expand...
Perhaps you can answer my question. I have a clear brand bear container for my pack. I have noticed that some areas of the country require you to hang your food but they don't mention if bear containers are approved. I would assume that a bear container is always allowed since hanging food isn't full proof but I am not sure if bear containers are not allowed in some parks and forest areas. I was planning on checking with the park rangers in each area but just wondering what your experience has been.
 
Great discussion about dissuading bears from invading your gear or you. Couple of notes from a long time bear country camper, me. Just my experience from Sierras, Rockies and SE Alaska [hiking and sea kayaking].

Effective bear 'proof' [resistant] containers are very difficult to carry [bulk and weight] on an extended backpack trip and they do not address the issue of odors in camp or on your person from camping, cooking or even brushing your teeth.

Bear fences are also an item that in theory will possibly turn away a bear; if deployed correctly and if you can carry it.

Hanging food bags if done correctly can again provide a healthy modicum of protection for the items in the bag but are never 100% effective. I personally have never lost a bag but then again I am very careful how and where I hang the bags.

Bear spray is a mixed blessing. It may, not shall, turn a bear away and those that carry it often are clueless on when and how to use it. Also like Dumbo's feather, some carrying [actually many] bear spray do not maintain situational awareness or practice prudent route or behaviors to avoid a bear conflict because they feel protected/invincible because they are carrying bear spray.

Black Bears vs Grizzly/Coastal Brown Bears is a discussion that is useless. Each animal has a very unique set of responses and attitudes resulting in unique behaviors. Don't discount instincts or 'attitude' as opposed to 'intelligence'. My experience is that any bear can be cunning and a threat under any condition. Having said that I greatly value having bears in the wild. When you are in bear country it sharpens [or should] your senses and perceptions and hence enjoyment of the environment. In short, bears enrich the experience of the wild. Don't fear them, co-exist.

Lastly, I understand that a determined bear could lay open a FWC. BUT are there any documented cases of bears doing so?

Phil

Ps..Suggest reading Doug Peacock's books. Doug died January 22, 2017.
 
rltports,

Each National Park and each National Forest has its own supervisor and they may (often do) have different rules for things like Bear Canisters.

There are many Bear resistant storage products on the market for backpackers, campers and packers (horse). Research will reveal that some widely available products have been breached by Bears in certain areas. This includes hanging bags, so called Bear proof bags, clear screw top containers and others. There are a few products that have never been breached by a Bear. Some of these products are heavy and cheap others are light and expensive.

Wallowa (Phil),

Relative to Backpackers, Bear canisters are required in several National Parks. Those Parks typically have an approved canister list.

Hanging food only works in areas with Bears that have not yet learned how to defeat them (one method that has been observed several times is multiple Bears cooperating to bring the hanging food bag into reach by bending a limb or even pulling down the wire far enough that another bear can snag the hanging bag).

I and thousands of avid backpackers would disagree with your comments on carrying a lightweight Bear canister. Consider that a well designed Bear Canister can also double as a stool or small table and the best are very lightweight. I have used mine as a water carrier a few times. And a couple of times as a solar water heater by leaving it in the sun (all the food was transferred to another container carried by another member on our trip). It worked surprisingly well for that purpose.

Biologists have used them to backpack trout and other small wildlife for study.

The lightest weight Bear Resistant canisters for Backpackers and campers are available in several stock sizes as well as custom sizes from small overnight or weekender size to large expedition size. They have been in wide use for nearly 20 years without any food being lost to Bears due to a container failure. To be sure there are cheap heavy canisters out there that Backpackers hate.

I have personally tested Bear resistant canisters with both Black and Grizzly Bears in captivity. Our company also has worked with Park Service Bear Biologist experts and we have real field experience keeping food away from Bears.

Black bears solving simple problems and cooperating to defeat food storage containers has been well documented and the recognition of their intelligence is not a confusion with instinct or 'attitude".

If you don't believe me then maybe the following articles will cause you to reconsider your perspective (there are other articles on this as well).

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/arctic-bears-bear-intelligence/779/

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2012/08/120829-black-bears-cognition-animals-science/


Regards,

Craig
 
ckent323 said:
rltports,

Each National Park and each National Forest has its own supervisor and they may (often do) have different rules for things like Bear Canisters.

There are many Bear resistant storage products on the market for backpackers, campers and packers (horse). Research will reveal that some widely available products have been breached by Bears in certain areas. This includes hanging bags, so called Bear proof bags, clear screw top containers and others. There are a few products that have never been breached by a Bear. Some of these products are heavy and cheap others are light and expensive.

Wallowa (Phil),

Relative to Backpackers, Bear canisters are required in several National Parks. Those Parks typically have an approved canister list.

Hanging food only works in areas with Bears that have not yet learned how to defeat them (one method that has been observed several times is multiple Bears cooperating to bring the hanging food bag into reach by bending a limb or even pulling down the wire far enough that another bear can snag the hanging bag).

I and thousands of avid backpackers would disagree with your comments on carrying a lightweight Bear canister. Consider that a well designed Bear Canister can also double as a stool or small table and the best are very lightweight. I have used mine as a water carrier a few times. And a couple of times as a solar water heater by leaving it in the sun (all the food was transferred to another container carried by another member on our trip). It worked surprisingly well for that purpose.

Biologists have used them to backpack trout and other small wildlife for study.

The lightest weight Bear Resistant canisters for Backpackers and campers are available in several stock sizes as well as custom sizes from small overnight or weekender size to large expedition size. They have been in wide use for nearly 20 years without any food being lost to Bears due to a container failure. To be sure there are cheap heavy canisters out there that Backpackers hate.

I have personally tested Bear resistant canisters with both Black and Grizzly Bears in captivity. Our company also has worked with Park Service Bear Biologist experts and we have real field experience keeping food away from Bears.

Black bears solving simple problems and cooperating to defeat food storage containers has been well documented and the recognition of their intelligence is not a confusion with instinct or 'attitude".

If you don't believe me then maybe the following articles will cause you to reconsider your perspective (there are other articles on this as well).

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/arctic-bears-bear-intelligence/779/

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2012/08/120829-black-bears-cognition-animals-science/


Regards,
Craig
Click to expand...

[SIZE=10.5pt]Craig, [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]I know this is ‘out in the weeds’ and away from the topic of FWC vulnerability to bear intrusion. But to define the problem and if there is a real threat, bear behavior is an element that should be understood.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]No disputing your beliefs...I respect your beliefs and opinions; I just disagree...Yes, the PBS article on bears is interesting but again a generalization; and the Barren Ground Grizzly [in the article] on the North Slope/Artic is a very specially adapted bear that has the reputation of being aggressive, it has to survive in that habitat ..as for NP requirements, well let’s just say the NPS and other well-meaning but overly controlling agencies strive to accommodate the "lowest common denominator" public...you know the blissfully ignorant or stridently arrogant back country or side-country user. They seem to feel tasked to “save us from ourselves”. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]These are just my opinions, but like on the PCT the requirement of a bear proof [resistant] container is plain stupid and a knee jerk supposed solution to a non-existent or at best minuscule issue. Many on these “through trail hikers” carry less than 15 pounds and to add a bear proof container is huge. These agencies do it ostensively "To save the bears"; yeah right, from humans intruding into the bear habitat.[/SIZE]


As for your company providing and testing bear resistant containers on bears in captivity; that does not address the necessity for these containers only the marketing of them.

Lots of speculative directions to go about bear behavior; but mostly contact with humans will result in the bear's death not the human's. As for bears being intelligent and avoiding hunters as mentioned in the article; really? Amazing how many bears are killed by hunters or cars for that matter. How many humans are killed by bears each year?

So as always, I could be wrong in my perceptions and beliefs. But for example given the thousands of nights I have spent solo backpacking/sea kayaking I have never lost anything from a correctly positioned bear bag [nylon stuff sacks]; so for me a commercial bear proof container is useless and an unneeded burden.

BUT my question is yet unanswered: Are there any documented cases of bears breaking into a FWC? In short is there really a problem for those of us using FWCs?

Phil

Ps...Perhaps the Doug Peacock who died 1-22-17 was not the same bear researcher AKA "Hayduke" ..truly hope that "Hayduke Lives!".
 
Wallowa,

I agree to disagree with you based on my 19 years of work with Bears and more than 40 years and thousands of miles backpacking, as well as camping, climbing, rafting, kayaking and other activities in the Western and Eastern United States (including Alaska) and Canada (I have some international trips as well but no Black Bears there). ;-)

I am not aware of any specific intrusions into FWC campers. I am aware of Bear intrusions into campers but I do not know the specific circumstances and the circumstances do matter.

I'll leave the last words to you.

Regards,
Craig
 
Craig,

As always your input is appreciated.

Last words? None needed. We just sound like two old farts [I am 74] with different views; which is good! :D

Take Care,

Phil
 
My nephews (twins) hunt in Alaska where one of them lives (captains a boat out of Seward)... the other does Arctic research...they got together to do filming of Grizzlies on Kodiak. They had to camp and used the electric fences and said it worked with only one incident.
In a tent I would absolutely have one... couldn't sleep otherwise. In the camper it feels a lot safer which it probably isn't... those bears stand tall and could go through the side in seconds. We carry bear spray but in such close quarters it is only a last resort option. Good feeling having it. Cleanliness is the key. When in doubt cook over fire and burn everything clean. There are areas we will be in this summer that give me pause (hopefully not paws).... I am a worrier by nature. I might just borrow my nephew's unit and mail it back to him if I survive! As the saying goes "man plans, God laughs".
 
Buckland,

"Man plans and God laughs".....great and true!

Kodiak is really a popular island for people and bears. I spent two nights on Admiralty Island [SE of Kodiak] when kayaking from Juneau to Petersburg AK....like on Kodiak the Coastal Brown Bear [Grizzly on steroid] made sleeping at night a sketchy process..Admiralty Island at that time had one bear per square mile...love that area of Alaska...was also on AK Peninsula out by Port Moller....paw prints in sand on those black sand beaches were easily 10" across...no doubt who rules..any Aleut's dog out at night was often lost to a bear; of course there was not much "night".

Oh, your canoe looks very, very cool. How do you get it on and off the FWC?

Phil
 
It is very light. I make them... that one is only 31 lbs. I shoulder it and pop it up from the side on a little 2 ft step-ladder then synch it down. My wife has a double blade 12 ft canoe made by Hornbeck (Adirondacks)...it weights 18 lbs. Must be careful or it flies away!
 
buckland said:
It is very light. I make them... that one is only 31 lbs. I shoulder it and pop it up from the side on a little 2 ft step-ladder then synch it down. My wife has a double blade 12 ft canoe made by Hornbeck (Adirondacks)...it weights 18 lbs. Must be careful or it flies away!
Click to expand...
Beautiful and I am very jealous of your talent ! My neighbor, recently moved down from Alaska is a craftsman like you, his wood strip and some fabric canoes are also works of art. My 17' sea kayaks are fiberglass with a 22" beam and weigh about 50+lbs....getting them on and off the Hawk, especially in a wind, would be death defying for me!

Very nice...

Phil

Ps...bears...there...in keeping with this thread
 
I lived in Anchorage for 9 months in 1989 and worked out near the end of the Aleutians, going in and out by plane via Fairbanks.

Did not get any hunting in but I did my share of fishing on the Kenai, Anchor and other rivers.

Loved it. I will go back in the not too distant future.

Regards,

Craig
 
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