longhorn1
Ouch, that stings!
Sweet. Great job. jd
Full build - Reconstructing a 1981 Grandby into a custom Hawk!
- Thread starter PokyBro
- Start date
takesiteasy
Senior Member
Awesome build project! Great that you did such a thorough job documenting your work for others. I really enjoyed following along and reading your report. Looking forward to seeing the next phase too.
Living The Dream
Senior Member
Hey PokyBro!
Man everything looks great! Your build didn't end up so poky in the end did it! You made some serious strides in a short amount of time.
This build is super helpful to me! It is seriously like an instruction manual for what I need to do
I am going to try to make some wood slat runner for the headliner this week. Thanks for the great write up below!
Many thanks. - Tim
Man everything looks great! Your build didn't end up so poky in the end did it! You made some serious strides in a short amount of time.
This build is super helpful to me! It is seriously like an instruction manual for what I need to do
I am going to try to make some wood slat runner for the headliner this week. Thanks for the great write up below!Question for you: How did you instal these to the roof? screws, staples, glue, or other?PokyBro said:I weighed the insulation batting I removed, which I kept just in case, at @3.5-3.7 lbs with a luggage scale. The 1 inch solid insulation panels weighed in at approximately 5lbs each, and it took a little less than two 4x8 sheets, so around 9.5 lbs. to replace the fiberglass batting. that means about six extra pounds roughly. One advantage of solid foam, according to one of the FWC videos, is that solid foam doesn't retain moisture, batting does.
ImageUploadedByWander The West1466557172.903823.jpg
ImageUploadedByWander The West1466557187.274025.jpg
I set the roof back on the camper body to make sure the wiring for the overhead lights is where I want it. Seeing it visually in place beats relying only on measurements, because I've been know to measure wrong.
ImageUploadedByWander The West1466557365.412301.jpg
So I'm getting close to reinstalling the new headliner. Again, thinking ahead what would I need to do, I realized the wood slats that hold the headliner up on the ceiling would be needed. I couldn't find any thin slats at the local building stores, let alone finding something the right color, so I made them myself. I did this by getting a 2"x3"x10' piece of poplar board, cut it first into 1 inch widths, then ripped three slats from each of the two halves on the table saw, ending up with six pieces. Only five are needed, but I sanded, stained and sprayed each with several coats of lacquer finish. They came out quite nice.
I'm getting fired up to install the headliner, another step closer to completion.
ImageUploadedByWander The West1466557884.395001.jpgImageUploadedByWander The West1466557897.976614.jpgImageUploadedByWander The West1466557974.374261.jpg
That's about it this past weekend. I did have an opportunity to meet up with Tim (Living the dream). We had a great time looking at each other's campers, discussing what we've been doing, and learn from each other. I love his exuberance, and as you would suppose, he's quite a nice fellow.
One thing I realized after looking at Tim's roof with the headliner removed, is that his roof struts are 1"X11/2" aluminum tubing, so inherently stronger. My camper was built several years earlier, and they began with 1"X1" tubing back then, but moved to the above soon after. Placing the cross members on mine will hopefully help for weight loads I encounter, but now I'm wishing I had a camper a few years newer. I'm sure it will be fine, but you know how it goes, "I want what he has.....".
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Many thanks. - Tim
Living The Dream
Senior Member
Hey Pokybro,
Another quick question if you do not mind. What did you do for interior door trim? Can you offer a photo of what that looks like?
As always, thanks. - Tim
Another quick question if you do not mind. What did you do for interior door trim? Can you offer a photo of what that looks like?
As always, thanks. - Tim
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PokyBro
Senior Member
Tim, I gave this answer regarding attaching the roof slats to you earlier in another post, but for the benefit of others, I'll include it here for continuity.
"Oh, and to answer your other question on attaching the wood slats on the ceiling, I just went with the 18 gauge staple gun. After being in cold weather for my first trip, I could imagine seeing screws in the slats potentially forming condensation, or perhaps ice during the night time, as there's much more surface exposed than staples. That aluminum tubing transfers cold temperature quite efficiently, so anything touching it will become close to the same temperature, and bringing that cold to the exposed surface of the screw head."
I actually had some of the screws holding my inside wall panels, have ice crystals forming when I was on my shakedown trip in October during a below freezing night.
For question #2, I just used j-molding trim on the paneling edges that abut up around the door for now. I have a lot of exposed aluminum channeling on the door jam, and the door itself, which, for the most part looks fine. (but also is a source for considerable condensation forming in freezing weather) My door jam configuration attaches flush with the camper frame, and I'm guessing on yours there is a gap. I've considered making a wood trim to lay over top the exposed metal on mine, but haven't pursued it at this point. Here's a couple of photos for you I had in my cache.
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"Oh, and to answer your other question on attaching the wood slats on the ceiling, I just went with the 18 gauge staple gun. After being in cold weather for my first trip, I could imagine seeing screws in the slats potentially forming condensation, or perhaps ice during the night time, as there's much more surface exposed than staples. That aluminum tubing transfers cold temperature quite efficiently, so anything touching it will become close to the same temperature, and bringing that cold to the exposed surface of the screw head."
I actually had some of the screws holding my inside wall panels, have ice crystals forming when I was on my shakedown trip in October during a below freezing night.
For question #2, I just used j-molding trim on the paneling edges that abut up around the door for now. I have a lot of exposed aluminum channeling on the door jam, and the door itself, which, for the most part looks fine. (but also is a source for considerable condensation forming in freezing weather) My door jam configuration attaches flush with the camper frame, and I'm guessing on yours there is a gap. I've considered making a wood trim to lay over top the exposed metal on mine, but haven't pursued it at this point. Here's a couple of photos for you I had in my cache.
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Living The Dream
Senior Member
Thank you for the input and the photos. Ill see what I can come up with.
Boonie
Senior Member
Poky,
With the conductivity of aluminum, have you given any thought as to how an isolation layer could be added to the exterior walls and roof (outside or inside)?
Boonie
With the conductivity of aluminum, have you given any thought as to how an isolation layer could be added to the exterior walls and roof (outside or inside)?
Boonie
longhorn1
Ouch, that stings!
There used to be a 1/8" or 1/4" blue board the was packaged where you just unfolded it. If it was 1/8" and you were doing a rebuild it would be perfect with the seamless roof, no fasteners from the roof to the frame. It would probably reduce or eliminate any condensation on the underside of the roof, with the exception of the perimeter roof framing unless you could turn it down a little. Would be great if FWC could do that with their builds. Jd
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PokyBro
Senior Member
Hey Boonie, thanks for the question.
You know how it goes, after-the-fact knowledge would always be so useful as foreknowledge, so here's some thoughts as you work on your build. Having had a maiden voyage in variable weather conditions, including sunny and warm. snow, and sub-zero outside temperature at night, I observed things I hadn't thought of while assembling my camper. Regarding condensation, it occurred in all the aluminum window frames and glass, but that would be expected. It also formed around my door on the exposed aluminum channeling. I also saw some in the front corner down low in the area where the jack plate attached outside. Then there was some on most of the side liner, but not excessively dripping and running down the full inside liner surface. I also had a little condensation in the fantastic fan assemblies that dripped a little as the camper warmed up in the morning. Most of the condensation was obvious as the camper began to warm up, and before that, it was was ice crystals, mainly on exposed aluminum surfaces.
I had the heater set at the lowest setting during the night.
If you recall, I added five extra pieces of 1" aluminum square tubing, mounted side-by-side to the existing roof struts to increase the roof carrying capacity. However, I only used 1" wide ceiling slats inside when I did the new ceiling headliner, so only one of the side-by-side roof struts were covered with wood slats. So the point being, that left some extra aluminum close to the surface on the headliner without the wood covering it, and that was one other area that had a bit of ice crystals and then condensation water drops as it warmed up.
So what would I have done different? Maybe a few things. If you wanted to get carried away, you could find some thin foam material and place it between the exterior framing members and the siding, as well as on the inside framing, before attaching paneling, and that might give just a little more r-value for the aluminum tubing. Between the framing members, you already have insulation, so there wouldn't be any benefit also covering that. In my case, I think it would have mainly been useful to do this on the inside roof struts, before installing the headliner, simply because I have this extra struts. Below is some material that would work pretty well I think if you want to consider it. This is at Home Depot, but most other building stores carry it, and I've seen it in grey, as well as the pink shown, which would be my choice, though you probably couldn't tell color anyhow through the perforated liner.
And of course, curtains, reflectix, and and arctic pack will be things I will likely use once I get the time to do those. All in all, for a short trip, it's not really that big of a deal to have a little condensation for an outing like I had. We get significant condensation when we use our outfitter wall tents as well, that drips from the ceiling in the morning when ice crystals melt off. The main thing is just keeping an eye on things so you don't get would damage in the camper. I think wiping things down after the camper warms up is a good idea, especially your lift panel hinges if you want to help prevent the springs from rusting over time.
Well, that's a lot of writing to answer your question, but I hope it's helpful.
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You know how it goes, after-the-fact knowledge would always be so useful as foreknowledge, so here's some thoughts as you work on your build. Having had a maiden voyage in variable weather conditions, including sunny and warm. snow, and sub-zero outside temperature at night, I observed things I hadn't thought of while assembling my camper. Regarding condensation, it occurred in all the aluminum window frames and glass, but that would be expected. It also formed around my door on the exposed aluminum channeling. I also saw some in the front corner down low in the area where the jack plate attached outside. Then there was some on most of the side liner, but not excessively dripping and running down the full inside liner surface. I also had a little condensation in the fantastic fan assemblies that dripped a little as the camper warmed up in the morning. Most of the condensation was obvious as the camper began to warm up, and before that, it was was ice crystals, mainly on exposed aluminum surfaces.
I had the heater set at the lowest setting during the night.
If you recall, I added five extra pieces of 1" aluminum square tubing, mounted side-by-side to the existing roof struts to increase the roof carrying capacity. However, I only used 1" wide ceiling slats inside when I did the new ceiling headliner, so only one of the side-by-side roof struts were covered with wood slats. So the point being, that left some extra aluminum close to the surface on the headliner without the wood covering it, and that was one other area that had a bit of ice crystals and then condensation water drops as it warmed up.
So what would I have done different? Maybe a few things. If you wanted to get carried away, you could find some thin foam material and place it between the exterior framing members and the siding, as well as on the inside framing, before attaching paneling, and that might give just a little more r-value for the aluminum tubing. Between the framing members, you already have insulation, so there wouldn't be any benefit also covering that. In my case, I think it would have mainly been useful to do this on the inside roof struts, before installing the headliner, simply because I have this extra struts. Below is some material that would work pretty well I think if you want to consider it. This is at Home Depot, but most other building stores carry it, and I've seen it in grey, as well as the pink shown, which would be my choice, though you probably couldn't tell color anyhow through the perforated liner.
And of course, curtains, reflectix, and and arctic pack will be things I will likely use once I get the time to do those. All in all, for a short trip, it's not really that big of a deal to have a little condensation for an outing like I had. We get significant condensation when we use our outfitter wall tents as well, that drips from the ceiling in the morning when ice crystals melt off. The main thing is just keeping an eye on things so you don't get would damage in the camper. I think wiping things down after the camper warms up is a good idea, especially your lift panel hinges if you want to help prevent the springs from rusting over time.
Well, that's a lot of writing to answer your question, but I hope it's helpful.
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PokyBro
Senior Member
Last weekend, I dismantled the "donner camper", a Palomino, and there were some interesting things on how they constructed those campers in the 80s and 90s. The shell walls were made by assembling a 1" thick wood frame that is pretty widely spaced, and mainly goes around the perimeter of the walls. Then there is solid foam insulation cut and placed tightly in the voids of the wood frame, followed by contact cement and pressure forming the exterior aluminum skin, and the interior wood paneling together. So just as a shell it was very unstable and lacking strength. When the inside cabinetry and the perimeter aluminum channeling was added, the camper walls became less flexible, and more sturdy. Of course this is what I saw in reverse as I dismantled it. Once all the aluminum channeling was off the top of the camper wall, and metal objects were cleared, a reciprocating saw made short work of the dismantling process. I sold the jacks awhile ago, because I always intended to to take it to the landfill, cut apart, figuring they'd probably charge less than taking a whole camper to drop off.
I saved as much aluminum pieces as I could to take to the recycling center, and I may use some of the sheeting to cover some of my exterior floor pan for increased moisture barrier.
Thought you might find these pictures interesting. I was very surprised that the roof had no wood framing in the center, only around the perimeter, so all the strength came from styrofoam, compression formed between interior and exterior aluminum sheeting. When compared to FWC construction, you can see why our campers hold up longer, and have greater quality, when the entire framework is a welded tubular aluminum frame, before interior and exterior materials are added, I'll take that version any day!
You can see how little structural strength these older Palomino campers had, but I guess they worked okay.
Here are two sections of the roof I cut down to size for ease of handling. The other sections had no wood framing in the center either. Very surprising! I stripped the aluminum sheeting off of these pieces to possibly use later.
That's a whole camper loaded onto a trailer, minus appliances, water tank, etc.
I suppose you could have a camper fall out of your truck while dropping other stuff off at the landfill and save yourself some work. Funny story, years ago, a friend of my son asked to borrow my truck bed trailer I had at the timed, that had a kind of ratty camper shell on it. I was telling him he'd have to work around the shell, and I probably ought to get rid of it someday because it was in such ruff shape. Well he thought he'd do me a big favor, and when he took a load of trash to the dump, he went ahead and left the fiberglass camper shell at the dump for me as well. I was like, "Mark, I was just joshing", but it was too late when he came back with just the truck bed trailer without the camper shell. Oh well. Lol!
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I saved as much aluminum pieces as I could to take to the recycling center, and I may use some of the sheeting to cover some of my exterior floor pan for increased moisture barrier.
Thought you might find these pictures interesting. I was very surprised that the roof had no wood framing in the center, only around the perimeter, so all the strength came from styrofoam, compression formed between interior and exterior aluminum sheeting. When compared to FWC construction, you can see why our campers hold up longer, and have greater quality, when the entire framework is a welded tubular aluminum frame, before interior and exterior materials are added, I'll take that version any day!
You can see how little structural strength these older Palomino campers had, but I guess they worked okay.
Here are two sections of the roof I cut down to size for ease of handling. The other sections had no wood framing in the center either. Very surprising! I stripped the aluminum sheeting off of these pieces to possibly use later.
That's a whole camper loaded onto a trailer, minus appliances, water tank, etc.
I suppose you could have a camper fall out of your truck while dropping other stuff off at the landfill and save yourself some work. Funny story, years ago, a friend of my son asked to borrow my truck bed trailer I had at the timed, that had a kind of ratty camper shell on it. I was telling him he'd have to work around the shell, and I probably ought to get rid of it someday because it was in such ruff shape. Well he thought he'd do me a big favor, and when he took a load of trash to the dump, he went ahead and left the fiberglass camper shell at the dump for me as well. I was like, "Mark, I was just joshing", but it was too late when he came back with just the truck bed trailer without the camper shell. Oh well. Lol!
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PokyBro
Senior Member
This is how I knew my camper was a 1981. There was a colorado dot plate attached that has the date inscribed. Thinking I might just find a place to reattach this for nostalgia inside somewhere.
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Boonie
Senior Member
Poky,
Thanks for the insight. At this time I plan on solid sheet siding attached with a 3M commercial adhesive tape so that in itself should help. For the interior walls I am planning on a spray-on adhesive and a one sided "sandwich" similar to the Palomino so no through staples. I will be eliminating the large passenger side window so that should help. No extra ribs in my roof.... Bottom line is not much else that is practical to do.
On this and other similar topics the basic question is always how are you going to be using your camper. No camper can do everything; every camper is a compromise. Mine will primarily be a three season camper that based on my experience might encounter an overnight freeze. (More on that if I ever start a thread on my build.)
Your build and your willingness to share is so appreciated!
Boonie
Thanks for the insight. At this time I plan on solid sheet siding attached with a 3M commercial adhesive tape so that in itself should help. For the interior walls I am planning on a spray-on adhesive and a one sided "sandwich" similar to the Palomino so no through staples. I will be eliminating the large passenger side window so that should help. No extra ribs in my roof.... Bottom line is not much else that is practical to do.
On this and other similar topics the basic question is always how are you going to be using your camper. No camper can do everything; every camper is a compromise. Mine will primarily be a three season camper that based on my experience might encounter an overnight freeze. (More on that if I ever start a thread on my build.)
Your build and your willingness to share is so appreciated!
Boonie
Boonie
Senior Member
Poky,
Our campers were build 18 days apart! My CDOT plate is 9/17/81.
Our campers were build 18 days apart! My CDOT plate is 9/17/81.
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PokyBro
Senior Member
Boonie, sorry for not responding sooner, I had a little distraction over the last 2 weeks, called being laid off from work, a corporate restructure. Something that happens ever so often in the pharmaceutical industry, as medications go through their life cycle, and/ or business needs change. There were open positions created with all the changes, however, and today I was rehired, but will be moving to northern Utah in January, which actually will be good, because I have adult children, and grand kids there. So, it's great to be able to stop stressing about employment!
So, Boonie, that's so cool to see that our campers were built so closely together, time wise, and to think now they are both getting a second life, through restoration. That's a very cool thing about these campers! They are definitely worth restoring, and putting them back in service for another 10-20 years, or perhaps more. Thanks for connecting the timeline for our campers, and both were originally Grandby's, how cool is that! We should try to connect before I leave at the end of December, if possible.
For an update on my camper, I ordered an Isotherm, Cruise 130L on Thanksgiving day from West Marine, on a one-day 15% off sale. It was delivered by UPS upside down, with the shipping box very beat up, and a piece of the mounting flange missing. Upon further inspection, I found it was also dented in a few places, and the door was dislodged from the lower hinge pin. West Marine was great though, they shipped a replacement with no hassle at all, and it arrives tomorrow.
My interior build will likely be disrupted for a while until I re-establish a new residence in Utah, but I will try to tie up a few loose ends before I move, including mounting the fridge. So far I have had no leaks following the several light snows we've had, as the camper is staying on the truck for now. So it appears my caulking/ sealing job was good!
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So, Boonie, that's so cool to see that our campers were built so closely together, time wise, and to think now they are both getting a second life, through restoration. That's a very cool thing about these campers! They are definitely worth restoring, and putting them back in service for another 10-20 years, or perhaps more. Thanks for connecting the timeline for our campers, and both were originally Grandby's, how cool is that! We should try to connect before I leave at the end of December, if possible.
For an update on my camper, I ordered an Isotherm, Cruise 130L on Thanksgiving day from West Marine, on a one-day 15% off sale. It was delivered by UPS upside down, with the shipping box very beat up, and a piece of the mounting flange missing. Upon further inspection, I found it was also dented in a few places, and the door was dislodged from the lower hinge pin. West Marine was great though, they shipped a replacement with no hassle at all, and it arrives tomorrow.
My interior build will likely be disrupted for a while until I re-establish a new residence in Utah, but I will try to tie up a few loose ends before I move, including mounting the fridge. So far I have had no leaks following the several light snows we've had, as the camper is staying on the truck for now. So it appears my caulking/ sealing job was good!
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I just got a TF130 myself, and I am wondering how to mount/attach the fridge so it doesn't move. How are you going to do that?
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PokyBro
Senior Member
Vic, the Isotherm Cruise comes with an included three piece flange kit, that is basically just an "angle iron" shape, that screws onto the sides, and the top. You should probably be able to see four screw holes on each side of your fridge, just back of the door an inch or so. These flange pieces then allow you to slide the fridge into place, and secure it with screws to the cabinet up front. I can see it might seem difficult to mount without such a flange, because once it's back into the enclosed space of the cabinet, there doesn't seem to be much of anything that will hold it secure, and not stick out and look out of place, or unfinished.
Truck Fridge offers a flange set on their web sight for around $50.
Camelracer commented on another thread that his TF130 didn't need a flange for mounting, so maybe he has some ideas for you.
I have a question for you, or anyone else. When I hooked my fridge up to a12 volt battery to test it out, the compressor cooling fan remains on 100% of the time, not just when the compressor is actually running, even if the fridge is completely turned off inside. Is this how they are made, because though it's only a small amperage draw, it still is a constant drain on the battery 24 hrs a day?
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Truck Fridge offers a flange set on their web sight for around $50.
Camelracer commented on another thread that his TF130 didn't need a flange for mounting, so maybe he has some ideas for you.
I have a question for you, or anyone else. When I hooked my fridge up to a12 volt battery to test it out, the compressor cooling fan remains on 100% of the time, not just when the compressor is actually running, even if the fridge is completely turned off inside. Is this how they are made, because though it's only a small amperage draw, it still is a constant drain on the battery 24 hrs a day?
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Boonie
Senior Member
Poky,
WOW, leaving Colorado for Utah will make it harder to make personal contact, but I hope you remain active on WTW. Before you head for Utah, I would love to meet up to see your rig and go over my biggest fear, sewing a new liner with windows. I have sent a PM with my contact details.
Good luck with the move.
Boonie
WOW, leaving Colorado for Utah will make it harder to make personal contact, but I hope you remain active on WTW. Before you head for Utah, I would love to meet up to see your rig and go over my biggest fear, sewing a new liner with windows. I have sent a PM with my contact details.
Good luck with the move.
Boonie
Boonie
Senior Member
Poky,
On post #21 you discussed how you were doing the top bed/cab overhang bed board. How did it work out? Since I am trying to find ways to save weight how about with the 1/2" insulated base would a 1/2" bed board have worked?
Boonie
On post #21 you discussed how you were doing the top bed/cab overhang bed board. How did it work out? Since I am trying to find ways to save weight how about with the 1/2" insulated base would a 1/2" bed board have worked?
Boonie
OP
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PokyBro
Senior Member
Boonie,
I'll definitely remain active on WTW! No worries there, I've enjoyed it too much.
Regarding the bed board, I went overboard, (pun not intended, haha). I like having the exterior aluminum skin for a solid moisture barrier outside, but it was pressure glued to 3/8" wafer board that I removed from the bottom overhang on the Palomino camper, so I left it. I think there are definitely other options. You said yours will be more a three-season camper, so perhaps an insulation layer isn't really that useful. I didn't have any wet mattress issues on my trial run in below freezing weather, though, so it did potentially help there. The biggest negative on mine is it is definitely pretty thick at about 1 1/2".
I think1/2" thick plywood alone might sag too much, 3/4" is best. On mine there is a 3/4" top layer of pre-finished birch plywood, two 1/2" thick oak slats across the middle for additional strength, and 1/2" foam insulation sandwiched between, and the bottom layer with the aluminum skin attached is 3/8". As you know, everyone else just has a single sheet of plywood in there. Probably a wild-haired idea on my part, I know!
I'm satisfied with how I did mine, however, and I won't be redoing it unless it ever becomes necessary.
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I'll definitely remain active on WTW! No worries there, I've enjoyed it too much.
Regarding the bed board, I went overboard, (pun not intended, haha). I like having the exterior aluminum skin for a solid moisture barrier outside, but it was pressure glued to 3/8" wafer board that I removed from the bottom overhang on the Palomino camper, so I left it. I think there are definitely other options. You said yours will be more a three-season camper, so perhaps an insulation layer isn't really that useful. I didn't have any wet mattress issues on my trial run in below freezing weather, though, so it did potentially help there. The biggest negative on mine is it is definitely pretty thick at about 1 1/2".
I think1/2" thick plywood alone might sag too much, 3/4" is best. On mine there is a 3/4" top layer of pre-finished birch plywood, two 1/2" thick oak slats across the middle for additional strength, and 1/2" foam insulation sandwiched between, and the bottom layer with the aluminum skin attached is 3/8". As you know, everyone else just has a single sheet of plywood in there. Probably a wild-haired idea on my part, I know!
I'm satisfied with how I did mine, however, and I won't be redoing it unless it ever becomes necessary.
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Poky,
Awesome rebuild, I built my first camper from scratch and I think it might have been less work because I didn't have to deconstruct it first. Glad the superstrut tiedowns worked for you, mine are still going strong, Enjoy UT.
-BillM
Awesome rebuild, I built my first camper from scratch and I think it might have been less work because I didn't have to deconstruct it first. Glad the superstrut tiedowns worked for you, mine are still going strong, Enjoy UT.
-BillM
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