FWC Winter camping

[patrickkidd]

Hi there!

What steps have you taken to beef up your camper for winter use?

I am a native Alaskan who can't stay away from the mountains. Back in my 20's I spent a relatively cold winter in a 1984 Vanagon (RIP, my dear "Norm") with Warm Window insulation over the window curtains and a 5000BTU Platinum Cat propane heater supplemented by a 1000W 120V heater when it got far below zero. I plan to spend a bunch of time skiing in the lower-48 rockies this winter in my 1993 Ranger 2, including Jackson Hole. After that I'll be moving from the SF Bay Area to Washington DC for a couple of years, and then back to Alaska "for the duration," as they say.

So far I have added a 6600BTU Camco Olympian Wave 6 catalytic propane heater, and will supplement with a 16000BTU Mr. Buddy when it gets really cold. I'll take a couple of test trips in balmy Tahoe to find and patch up all the air leaks as necessary.

The canvas is just barely functional and probably needs to be replaced, though I could sneak by for a winter if I pin the the aged window velcro shut and reenforce the whole canvas with Warm Window insulation. ATC will sell a new canvas for $1050, or $1850 installed. I have no idea how others have insulated their popups.

So again, what steps have you taken to beef up your camper for winter use?

-Patrick

 

[klahanie]

We used to mostly winter camp. I wouldn't characterise what that led to as "beefing up the camper" but we did change a few things using our '97 Granby with 16Kbtu furnace. fwiw...

- Carry more LPG and battery capacity. Doubled the single battery and 20# bottle. IIRC we could burn thru a 20 pounder in a weekend (maybe it was a long weekend). Waking up to -15C/5F inside with no heat/power wasn't much fun.

- Self inflating air mattress under bed foam. Had 2 backpacking ones in storage at home for years before the light bulb went on. Bought a 3rd to make a queen size when placed all together. Big help for educing condensation under the mattress.

- Refletix stood up around the bed walls. Seems to help for warmer sleeping.

- More bedding. Best thing we every bought for the camper (after the PP) was a $30 walmart rectangular sleeping bag, opened and used as a topper over the usual down bags.

- Sleep with the top down. I reckon this is the best solution for really cold nights with a soft side pop up, if you have the layout/space. Our camper can't really be efficiently kept warm with the canvas exposed.

- Carry a liquid gas camp stove as a backup for melting water and cooking.

- Keep the fuel tanks full incase of the need to run the truck to charge batteries, or sit in the cab to warm up.

Re air leaks: If you have an old camper it could have spun fibreglass insulation which has probably sagged allowing plenty of air leaks esp if wind is blowing. So I think having rigid foam insulation might well be worth the effort of replacement. Some folks also attach rigid foam to the lower portion of the camper, including the underside.

Oh, and if you have a LPG bottle cabinet, see if you can insulate the walls of it. On our model that was a big cold sink right in to the interior with no insulation whatsoever.

 

[Chrish]

We found out recently that's not a good idea to sleep with a pop up during a wet snow storm . Our roof was definitely sagging in the morning.

We were camped by the Madison River, Montana
around 10 days ago and were caught in a snowstorm that was forecast to be no accumulation.turned out to be 3 or 4 inch of really heavy wet snow.

We didn't have the means to shovel the roof, especially with the top pop.

Now I will carry my lightweight roof rake if snow is anticipated. Also sleep with the top down during a wet snow storm or go out during the middle of the night to shovel.

 

[todgru]

We found that the Mr. Buddy style heater produced too much condensation which then froze to all the cool surfaces. This happened at any temp below freezing. The frozen moisture eventually melts and rains down inside.

I have since installed a Suburban forced air furnace. While we still get condensation freezing on the ceiling, it's not nearly as bad as the Mr. Buddy heater.

Also, adding more insulation will help! We have a newer camper with the newer canvas and the arctic pack insulation and we could still use more insulation.

 

[Stokeme]

This thread is very current for me. Even in the balmy 19 to 29F night’s recently experienced in the Eastern Sierra, with only experience in down bags & tent camping, I am prone to vent. A heater is all new & great.
I am going to look at ways to add some insulating layer to the floor. Refeltix? I also noticed a lot of cold air seeping upwards from & through the underside turnbuckle “hallway”. Has anyone tried to stuff insulation or foam, as mentioned above, in the dead space between the turnbuckles? I had frozen condensation on the ceiling wood strips & the LED light strips.
Recently, I switched out one vent fan to a variable speed control. (Patterned after a thread here on WTW). If I keep this vent cracked very low, with the fan on very low, it may help with generated condensation & my fears of CO. I am looking & hoping to see some good mods to increase warmth w/less 12V drainage.

 

[rando]

We found that the Mr. Buddy style heater produced too much condensation which then froze to all the cool surfaces. This happened at any temp below freezing. The frozen moisture eventually melts and rains down inside.

I have since installed a Suburban forced air furnace. While we still get condensation freezing on the ceiling, it's not nearly as bad as the Mr. Buddy heater.

Also, adding more insulation will help! We have a newer camper with the newer canvas and the arctic pack insulation and we could still use more insulation.

Whole heartedly agree with this. For every pound of propane you burn in an unvented heater (Wave, Buddy etc) you are dumping ~ 2 pounds of water into your camper - most of which condenses on your walls/roof etc. On a cold night you might burn 3-4 pounds of propane - meaning you are dumping ~ a gallon of water into your camper. I had a buddy heater in my last camper, and while it could keep it warm, it made the condensation MUCH worse.

 

[Trailbob]

My wife and I have done some early winter camping during hunting seasons in Idaho. We have a 2011 Hawk and with the insulated liner. Last week we were in an area where the temps were in the mid 20's to low 30's, and it snowed most of the day. We have a furnace and a Wave 3 heater. The Wave 3 would maintain the camper in the mid 50's inside, with a turn buckle door and a window slightly opened for ventilation. I didn't want to run the furnace too much because of the battery draw. The roof solar panel was covered with snow, and the portable would get covered soon after I would wipe it off. As it turned out, the hunt was successful and we left the first day, so I could have run the furnace more. The batteries never dropped below 80%.

I like the Wave 3, but think the Wave 6 would be better in serious cold. The moisture they put out is a real issue that has to be dealt with somehow. During a prolonged period of inclement weather where the camper could not be opened up and vented, I think it may be worth packing our Honda 2000 generator and running a 1500 watt electric heater to produce dry heat, and of course recharge the battery. This was a short trip so we could live with the moisture, but a long trip would be another story. Also, we live in a high desert area so it is easy to dry out camper out when we get home.

We did not winterize the water system for this trip (we have on some trips), so I set the furnace to the lowest setting (40*) at night, and while we were away hunting. We use two Walmart/Coleman 40* rectangular bags that are zipped together, and put a down comforter over us. We were plenty warm. On past extended trips (where we had a wall tent) we winterized the water system and slept without heat in our 0* bags.

When I put the roof down on this trip, there was only an inch or so of snow on it. I was surprised how fast it came down (we have 30 lb struts). On future trips, I will definitely pack some kind of ladder and device for removing snow off the roof if snow is in the forecast.

We were only supposed to get light snow showers, so I put the awning out a few feet to provide dry storage. This proved to be a huge mistake. When the snow started coming down harder, I tried to put the awning in but it would not roll in properly due the ice and snow on the material (even though I was banging on it to knock it off). I finally succeeded in storing the awning, but on the drive home it would pop out several inches at a time as it melted. I had to stop three times to crank it back in. That was a mistake I don't plan to repeat.

Anyways, a few random thoughts on our cold weather experiences.

 

[smlobx]

This thread is very current for me. Even in the balmy 19 to 29F night’s recently experienced in the Eastern Sierra, with only experience in down bags & tent camping, I am prone to vent. A heater is all new & great.
I am going to look at ways to add some insulating layer to the floor. Refeltix? I also noticed a lot of cold air seeping upwards from & through the underside turnbuckle “hallway”. Has anyone tried to stuff insulation or foam, as mentioned above, in the dead space between the turnbuckles? I had frozen condensation on the ceiling wood strips & the LED light strips.
Recently, I switched out one vent fan to a variable speed control. (Patterned after a thread here on WTW). If I keep this vent cracked very low, with the fan on very low, it may help with generated condensation & my fears of CO. I am looking & hoping to see some good mods to increase warmth w/less 12V drainage.

You might want to look at what I just recently did to insulate our floor. Easy and only added a couple of pounds to the camper...

http://www.wanderthewest.com/forum/topic/17266-insulating-the-floor-of-your-camper/

 

[Hoopy]

We use our fleet thu the winter for skiing and playing. Only one season so far. Our longest trip Was a wk in it went with no problems. Did not use the water system just not confident enuf. We have a collapsible ladder which is a must in snow country. swept the roof as needed. I would make a point to get up if it was dumping snow. I noticed drafty areas turn buckle access hatches. And surprisingly around the fridge. At this point I’m gonna leave it as some fresh air is good.
- Things I have done for winter improvements are two more panels on roof.
- Better charge controller( MPPT).
-Generator
-Shut off valves on outside shower (at manifolds)
-make sure manifold outlets are facing down so they completely drain or (drain better). One of mine faced up
Hard to drain completly and nice place to have late summer pond water effect if sitting awhile!

-insulate the water outlet on the tank it’s in a hard spot most exposed place
- added some of that anti fatigue foam cut to fit floor one pack on sale does a fleets floor (got a spare pack)
-Rectoflex cutouts for the windows

Things I need to do for effiency and my piece of mind.
- The longer you are out or the colder your batteries get less efficient. I am going to put rigid insulation between the the truck bed. That may help the H2O tank and battery box as they are against that wall.
- Will also insulate under the floor with rigid insulation.
There’s are things I have done which I hope help us out in the winter months. After beingthe back of a PU with a canopy and a kid in winter. I feel like a cat in front of a stove with a storm outside now!

 

[Stokeme]

Thnx smlobx, that looks efficient. I can do that. I had a lot of cold air drifting up along the driver’s side wall from the underneath turnbuckle area & likewise underneath my rollover couch on the passenger side. I am going to stuff something on both sides to soak up the cold while leaving access to my turnbuckles.

 

[patrickkidd]

This really turned out to be a great great, thanks you all!

There is another thread about insulating an FWC, mostly with Reflectix and solid foam: Insulation
http://www.wanderthewest.com/forum/index.php?/topic/11557-Insulation

They are talking about adding 1-2R to the existing walls which is already 1-2R. It looks like Warm Window from Joann Fabrics adds a bit more than 7R, and it can be rolled up and stored easier. So my current plan is to cover everything with it from the inside and not just the canvas, securing with Velcro. We’ll see how that goes.

 

[Stokeme]

I’ll throw out this WTW thread I ran across looking for ideas.
Haven’t gone through it all yet

http://www.wanderthewest.com/forum/topic/13210-winter-camping-advice/

 

[klahanie]

. It looks like Warm Window from Joann Fabrics adds a bit more than 7R, and it can be rolled up and stored easier.

Warm Windows from Joann
product R value claim

What a concept !

Is FWC still using single layer vinyl ? Best reason I can come up with for them not using a insulated multi layer is clearance issues behind the folding panels ??

Someone, please correct me if I am wrong but the Arctic Pak doesn't fit behind the panels and does not seal vapor tight to the walls ?

JMO but insulating the canvas and lower "wooden" section would be a huge factory improvement.

 

[patrickkidd]

Warm Windows from Joann
product R value claim

What a concept !

Is FWC still using single layer vinyl ? Best reason I can come up with for them not using a insulated multi layer is clearance issues behind the folding panels ??

Someone, please correct me if I am wrong but the Arctic Pak doesn't fit behind the panels and does not seal vapor tight to the walls ?

JMO but insulating the canvas and lower "wooden" section would be a huge factory improvement.

From what I have seen, the “Arctic Pack” is just a thin layer of fabric that traps air. On first glance on seeing it in other peoples campers I thought it totally inadequate for serious winter camping.

If I had infinite funds I would build an ideal winter rig with a roll-up warm window layer for the canvas, walls, and permanently behind the cabinets and battery compartment, at least a Camco Wave 6, 200AH battery bank with warm air flow to the main cabin, and an extra 20lb propane tank, plus at least a 1000W+ generator with a small 1000W forced air heater to occasionally dry things out.

I would also have a really stout sleeping bag (-40F) as a last resort. I had that in Jackson Hole that one really cold winter in the Vanagon and I never had to worry about my own safety.

 

[Chrish]

From what I have seen, the “Arctic Pack” is just a thin layer of fabric that traps air. On first glance on seeing it in other peoples campers I thought it totally inadequate for serious winter camping.
If I had infinite funds I would build an ideal winter rig with a roll-up warm window layer for the canvas, walls, and permanently behind the cabinets and battery compartment, at least a Camco Wave 6, 200AH battery bank with warm air flow to the main cabin, and an extra 20lb propane tank, plus at least a 1000W+ generator with a small 1000W forced air heater to occasionally dry things out.
I would also have a really stout sleeping bag (-40F) as a last resort. I had that in Jackson Hole that one really cold winter in the Vanagon and I never had to worry about my own safety.

yes on the high cold rated sleeping bag. We turn the propane off when sleeping. No need to heat a space that is not being used.yea its hard to leave that warm bag in the morning, but it is winter camping after all, and the two minutes of discomfort needed to get the propane heater going is relative luxury. At least I'm not crawling out of a ground tent with no heat. Been there.

 

[Wallowa]

This really turned out to be a great great, thanks you all!

There is another thread about insulating an FWC, mostly with Reflectix and solid foam: Insulation
http://www.wanderthewest.com/forum/index.php?/topic/11557-Insulation

They are talking about adding 1-2R to the existing walls which is already 1-2R. It looks like Warm Window from Joann Fabrics adds a bit more than 7R, and it can be rolled up and stored easier. So my current plan is to cover everything with it from the inside and not just the canvas, securing with Velcro. We’ll see how that goes.

The "Joann Fabrics' Warm Window" I believe is a no-go for a FWC...designed for homes and would be a bugger to mount/use in our campers...plus we have Hunter Douglas honeycomb shades in our home and the R ratings is only 4, so I doubt the R7 claim....

Additional insulation for the windows and propane box is a good idea, but in the end I doubt any FWC will be adequately insulated to truly keep in the heat in winter...or keep it out it out in the summer...

I used Velcro attached 3" 'blue board' foam insulation to the under side of the overhang and exposed sides/ends of the Hawk for insulation and to limit air flow in and out of the bed of the truck...in the end a metal truck bed provides damn near zero reduction of heat lose...guess I could inject the truck bed with expanding insulation!

Just saying and I could be wrong...

Phil

 

[patrickkidd]

The "Joann Fabrics' Warm Window" I believe is a no-go for a FWC...designed for homes and would be a bugger to mount/use in our campers...plus we have Hunter Douglas honeycomb shades in our home and the R ratings is only 4, so I doubt the R7 claim....

Additional insulation for the windows and propane box is a good idea, but in the end I doubt any FWC will be adequately insulated to truly keep in the heat in winter...or keep it out it out in the summer...

I used Velcro attached 3" 'blue board' foam insulation to the under side of the overhang and exposed sides/ends of the Hawk for insulation and to limit air flow in and out of the bed of the truck...in the end a metal truck bed provides damn near zero reduction of heat lose...guess I could inject the truck bed with expanding insulation!

Just saying and I could be wrong...

Phil

I am curious, what is it about the warm window material that you think would work in a camper? It is 100% synthetic and did well in my Vanagon in a cold winter in Jackson Hole with similar heating.

 

[klahanie]

I'm interested in hearing more about the generator + electric heater idea. ..

If/when we go back to winter camping for sure I'd like a secondary method of space heating, if only for redundancy. I looked into this idea years back. Carrying space for a 2000w genny was and still is problematic for us and the 1000w size... IDK for the money...bigger would be nicer and perhaps justifiable for use as back up for home/cottage.

For all it's lack of sexiness the big Atwood furnace we have is tough to beat for quickly heating up a frozen camper. The prob with our camper is it looses that heat so quickly, then the furnace cycles and cooks us. Better insulation would help - and help for 3 season use, which is where I feel FWC is missing out - but for winter, a lesser, constant output from electric would be appreciated during the longer evenings spent lounging inside. Overnight we'd prob off the heat entirely, depending on water storage.

So am curious, have people been running these gennys all night or just mornings and evenings ? Noise issues or camping solo ?
other thoughts ?

Thanks
~David

 

[patrickkidd]

I'm interested in hearing more about the generator + electric heater idea. ..

If/when we go back to winter camping for sure I'd like a secondary method of space heating, if only for redundancy. I looked into this idea years back. Carrying space for a 2000w genny was and still is problematic for us and the 1000w size... IDK for the money...bigger would be nicer and perhaps justifiable for use as back up for home/cottage.

For all it's lack of sexiness the big Atwood furnace we have is tough to beat for quickly heating up a frozen camper. The prob with our camper is it looses that heat so quickly, then the furnace cycles and cooks us. Better insulation would help - and help for 3 season use, which is where I feel FWC is missing out - but for winter, a lesser, constant output from electric would be appreciated during the longer evenings spent lounging inside. Overnight we'd prob off the heat entirely, depending on water storage.

So am curious, have people been running these gennys all night or just mornings and evenings ? Noise issues or camping solo ?
other thoughts ?

Thanks
~David

I’ve never actually use the generator to power a supplemental heater in a van or a camper. My 1000W Honda generator is just very slightly smaller than the 2000W model. They’re practically the same size. They are both very quiet and have an E Conneaut throttle that will obviously throttle up to full speed when running heater like this . 1500W is the most common small electric space heater size, for example that you see advertised for marine use. Electric heat is very expensive compared to propane heat, but it doesn’t generate any moisture and may even help dry things a little bit.

 

[Wallowa]

I am curious, what is it about the warm window material that you think would work in a camper? It is 100% synthetic and did well in my Vanagon in a cold winter in Jackson Hole with similar heating.

Quantifying the R factor on basically a single sheet of material [no thickness given that I found] is at best a WAG...no mystery to insulation or wonder fabric, thickness and material count...plus given the heat loss characteristics of our FWC campers you could put 5" inches of foam on the windows and still lose heat rapidly, let alone draping fabric on windows...

Yes, every little bit adds up....and we draw the curtains over the windows, more for privacy...but even the ArticPak which traps air, a great insulator, is of minimal help..but to claim R7 with a single pane window loses all credibility...

Practically speaking the FWC space heater when needed and warm bedding/clothing is about as good as it gets in FWC...but that for me is just fine...

Phil