Gotta love 3way refers... is it time to get DC?

[Riverrunner]

My Norcold is starting to irritate me a bit. The freezer seemed to work until we camped in the same place for 3 days over the weekend and the ice melted in the tray. The fridge itself is not very cold so we stuffed a bag of ice in there to help out. Thankfully it wasn't hot so a bag of ice was barely enough keep thing cool. On the way home the freezer seemed to work somewhat as a few things that were in there started to freeze so I guess if I'm moving it's working, sort of. Also had a weird smell, not ammonia but more of a slight burning smell that eventually went away after a day. Flame stayed lit and seemed fine. A few months ago I had cleaned the burner and it seemed to work great after that. Toward the end of my 4th of July trip the refer seemed to be working sporadically. I haven't started digging into it but this refer is finicky. My last 3way wasn't near this troublesome in the 4 years I had it. I've been rummaging around the site and online looking into the issues and it seems that the conclusion is to ditch the POS and go DC...not that I really want to spend the money but I need to have the thing reliable.

I'd probably look for a direct replacement that will fit in the hole. I haven't really looked into that part yet other than I see maybe an Engle or Dometic seem to fit the bill. My biggest concern is power. I've read many topics but haven't seen the answer I'm looking for really.

I'll obviously have to upgrade to a bigger battery with more AH and probably go to a dual set up of some sort. Some trips I move everyday, others I stay put for 2 to 4 days. Living where I do, when I camp, and where, leaves me a bit skeptical that solar can keep the batteries up.

Those that have a DC fridge, how long will the fridge run on a battery? 6 hours, 12 hours, a day?

 

[PaulT]

The DC power required to run a compressor type fridge is much less than the DC power required to run a 3 way type fridge as the technology is quite different.

Look at the post from DrJ with the numbers he measured with the Trimetric monitor. This is probably the most scientific starting point for estimates for your use, your batteries (size, condition, charging set up) and your situation (weather, sun, etc.). There are so many varibles that your need some hard numbers to reduce the guess work involved. That thread has some good discussion.

http://www.wanderthewest.com/forum/topic/9301-measured-fwc-power-use/

As a newby FWC Hawk owner from July, my experience is rather meaningless for estimating. I am still learning to manage power, propane use, and where to put stuff such that both my wife and I can find it again.

You will find almost as many opinions on 3 way vs. 2 way as in a discussion of 1/2 ton vs. 3/4 ton or gasoline vs. diesel. The FWC website has a good video that explains the differences between the two refrigeration technologies.

http://www.fourwheelcampers.com/index.php/four-wheel-campers/video-gallery/#

Paul

 

[Riverrunner]

I somehow missed that thread on power use. Thanks.

I'm aware of the differences in the refers and I'm tired of fighting my Norcold 3 way. I'm constantly fussing with it to get it to work. With an Engle or Waeco compressor fridge I'll also eliminate the need to be level because it's not alway possible to park level everywhere. My problem is going to be power and it looks like I may need to buck up and get a generator for extended stays.

 

[DrJ]

I installed my compressor fridge (110 litter Waeco) last spring and really love it.
It was a direct replacement in size for the largest 3 way fridge FWC installs.
You've already mentioned many of the positives:
Consistent temperature
No need to keep truck level
Larger size of useable fridge space
Faster cool down time
Maintains temperature in any condition
Your propane lasts much longer
No propane flame issues with traveling

The main downsides are really the power use and cost. The fridge is more expensive. Your setup will likely become more expensive to run it.

If you have the larger fridge, it's pretty tough to make it work without dual batteries and solar. I really underestimated the amount of power I needed to make my system work.
I've seen some of the specs on the smaller fridges and they do really use less power.

I've actually installed 3 fans like the factory ones FWC uses to try and cool the back of the fridge. It's all wired to a switch in the camper. I'm planning on testing to see if that increases the efficiency of the compressor fridges. It made a huge difference in my 3 way fridge. Even the compressor fridges generate a fair amount of heat when they run. I would assume having that heat drawn away from the fridge would have to help.

My larger fridge uses anywhere from 50-75 amp hours a day to run. This is during the summer months where it has been 85 degrees or more.
It uses 4.5-5 amps at a time and does need to run 50-70% of the time to maintain fridge temperatures during that time of the year.

A generator would work just fine and keep you charged whenever you needed it. But you probably will want a battery bank at least 1-2 times the power you would need to run the fridge for a day. Otherwise you will be constantly using the generator during trips longer than 1-2 days.

 

[PaulT]

On my first trip and starting with full batteries (150aH total) with very little sun filtering through the Doug firs, we ran the batteries down enough in 2 1/2 days that the voltage sensing isolator kept the truck alternator from charging the batteries when I finally tried running the truck.

I had full sun for the three hours back home and the 100 watt solar panel brought it back up enough for the truck to provide charging power. The FWC panel indicated 1/2 full but is way over optimistic. I plugged into AC at home and the IOTA finished charging the batteries. After unplugging AC, the ZAMP still was not happy and it took several days before it indicated full batteries.

I'm still learning how to manage the battery power with what I have. I am debating adding another 120-160 watt solar panel or finding somewere to carry my 60 lb Honda 2000 plus some fuel. I would really like to avoid taking the generator. The gasoline fumes emanating from the generator or gas can sets off the propane detector on a warm day if they are carried in the camper.

Discussions on this forum really help
Paul

 

[Ramblinman]

My 2 cents. I have the stock 3 way in my 2010 hawk. I live in northern Canada. I am using the factory Deka battery. Power or propane is never an issue. The fridge does not use much propane. Too me (because I have not had any challenges with my 3 way ... Yet) the challenge of leveling the the truck is worth all the expense and gadgets for the compressor fridge. I have said in earlier posts that little camper fridge becomes really expensive when you factor in all the costs of extra batteries and solar. Just for cold beer - ok I know cold beer is important - but Hemmingway did speak of enjoying warm beer in Green Hills of Africa

Lately I just check my level with an app on my iPhone, when the level is way out I turn off the fridge for the few hours it might be a concern - parking lots or whatever - when I sleep I like the truck level anyway. It is my understanding is the unlevelness is what hurts the fridge. You could probably buy a couple of propane fridges for the cost of a new compressor fridge and power system.

There are plenty of posts about people having problems with solar which negates your search for a problem free fridge.
My vote is stay with the 3 way and buy an new one - dance with the devil that you know

 

[Riverrunner]

I've got the "big" Norcold so the replacement would be the Waeco 110 like DrJ has. Sounds like my concerns on power are correct and running the big compressor fridge is going to be a challenge. I don't typically camp in open areas where I'll get full on sun and some of my camping is in the offseason so any sun is a miracle to start with. My camper is a little older than some of your's so it doesn't have a fancy converter. My thought was to plug it into a generator and run it a few hours a day since I don't think the convertor is smart enough to do anything but full on charge the battery(s). Carrying gas and listening to a generator run is not really something I want but not sure how to get around it with such a large power need.

Ramblingman - I hear ya. So far the standard battery (1) has been fine with the current set up. Just going to LED bulbs made a huge difference. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places but the cost of either a new 3 way or the Waeco compressor is almost a push. Needing more battery power and since I don't currently have a generator, so I'd have to buy one, makes the DC fridge a really expensive solution. I guess my leveling issue is when I'm not set up for the night but just traveling and wondering. Be it hiking a trail or some other activity, finding a level enough parking place for a few hours isn't always an option. I half suspect that maybe what is causing my problems. It's not unusual for the rig to parked somewhere for many hours, not level, refer running, while out and about.

 

[Stan@FourWheel]

This will plug right in to the IOTA converter in your camper ...



http://www.iotaengineering.com/iq.htm



.

 

[PaulT]

Check your installation. On my Hawk, the IQ4 was already installed. It is mounted to the top of the battery compartment and plugged into the Iota by an RJ-11 telephone style plug with grayish wire.

One of its strong suits is that if there is no battery draw down for seven days floating while on AC power, it will switch from float mode back to absorption mode and then return to float mode.to avoid suphation problems.

Paul

 

[Riverrunner]

Thanks Stan - I'll be getting one of those since I don't have one. Had something similar on my hardside and it was great.

Fired the refer back up after a cleaning, it was pretty clean, and let it run all night. Outside temp this morning was 51. Refer was 40 set at #5. Freezer was "Cold" but didn't take a temp in there. Could still smell that hint of something burning from outside. Probably not a good sign... I'll make some phone calls and see if it's worth fixing if it's fixable.

 

[Ethergore]

I'm sure you can get the 3-way fridge fixed as I have heard there is nothing on them that isn't cheaply repaired......... BUT......... once you get a compressor fridge dialed in they are sweet!

If the money thing is worrying you I will share my costs with you so you can get an accurate idea.
-I scored my fridge for $600 (5% off due to a dent in the back) so figure $700 is findable.
-I am running my fridge off 2 gc2 golf cart batteries for a total of 200 amp hours. I got 2 dekas for $460 picked up from a local store.
-I have a single remote 100 watt panel from renogy and their cheap charge controller. The panel was $200 and the controller was $30. I also paid $40 for a 40 ft cable.

You can save some money by just starting with the batteries. This should get you through 2-3 days alone and if you see a 4th day you can run your truck for a few hours to get you through.

Once you get solar consider a "good" charge controller that has user programable, multi-stage charging like a Morningstar. No need to waste money on MPPT just get PWM.

So to summarize you can get started for under $1200 if you go for it but that is about the minimum without finding used stuff.

If all this isn't enough info you can hit me up or wait until I post my "Idiots guide" I'm working on that should help people in your same situation.

 

[Riverrunner]

Good info thanks!

Yes, I can get it fixed and have been calling the local RV shops. If it's the cooling unit, then it's about $600 so may as well buy a new one.

I think with a couple of 6v golf cart batteries I could make the compressor fridge work. How do you vent the batteries? That is my biggest concern is the venting. Or are your batteries AGM's?

 

[Ethergore]

That's a lot to fix a 3 way fridge. Go dc! The batteries are AM for that price. If you want to figure out hot to vent them, which I don't recommend, you can get two batteries for $200.

 

[RC Pilot Jim]

Honda generator uses 1 gal of gas per hour. There is a kit to modify it to run propane.

DrJ and photohc have over 250 watts of solar on the roof and two batteries.

My 3 cents (inflation) is flexible solar panels from Renology of Uni-solar cut down on the weight allow for more wattage on the roof
and driving truck or idling the truck 1-2 hours per day add to the solar output on cloudy days.

 

[Riverrunner]

Jim,

I don't think a little 2000ui will use that much fuel. The Honda or Yamaha have a 1 gal tank and run time is 8-9 hours with a light load. I'm guessing 6 or 7 hours on a heavy load. I'm having a hard time with solar since the sun up here is not really that plentiful (non existent in the winter) and I tend to camp in the forest under the canopy. If I was a desert rat I might think differently. If DrJ's recent numbers are right, running a genny 3 hours a day is about all I'll need if I'm staying in one place. While this summer has been sunny and hot in Oregon, there is only maybe 2 or 3 months at most where there is decent sun west of the Cascades.

 

[PaulT]

I ran my Honda EU2000i during the Hood-To-Coast relay from about 20:30 to 06:30. I did not use the entire 1.1 gal of fuel. I kept a small battery charger running on an external 100aH battery used for ham radio communications as I was responsible for emergency comms at a race exchange in a remote locations without cell coverage.

I had my camper plugged in with the refer running, plus 3 fluorescent flood lights of 65 watts each and another of 10 watts. I occasionally ran the water pump to draw water and had several of the camper lights on for extended periods. I think I could survive on the smaller EU1000i with careful load management.

The more difficult issue with these small generators is keeping them secure and and managing the safety issues related to storing and handling the fuel. Now considering a small off road utility trailer that can be locked up and also carry kayaks at a lower height than the top of the camper. Moving most of the water storage off the truck suspension would be a better idea also.

Paul

 

[DrJ]

Jim,

I don't think a little 2000ui will use that much fuel. The Honda or Yamaha have a 1 gal tank and run time is 8-9 hours with a light load. I'm guessing 6 or 7 hours on a heavy load. I'm having a hard time with solar since the sun up here is not really that plentiful (non existent in the winter) and I tend to camp in the forest under the canopy. If I was a desert rat I might think differently. If DrJ's recent numbers are right, running a genny 3 hours a day is about all I'll need if I'm staying in one place. While this summer has been sunny and hot in Oregon, there is only maybe 2 or 3 months at most where there is decent sun west of the Cascades.

I have done just that with my 2000 watt honda generator. It produces enough power to charge through the IOTA the same as if you were hooked up at home.

It's a really easy solution to this problem. And that generator is incredibly efficient.

It's kind of a pain to carry around along with the gas can to make it all work. Otherwise it's a great setup.

I would assume the 1000 watt could do a pretty good job too and even use less gas.

 

[Riverrunner]

Thanks. Kinda confirms what I've been thinking. My thought for fuel is a rotopax mounted to the back of the camper. I've thought about a 1000w but if I buy a 2000w I can use it to run refers and freezers at home in an emergency/disaster situation so it will serve more than one purpose. Sounds like for me this will be the way I should head. Easy solution....just not cheap. haha!