How well were they made?

[t4halo]

I'm lucky in the point that my everyday driver(93 Cummins) has 48+" between the wheel wells. This gives me the opportunity to purchase older FWC's like the Keystone or Granby. I see them on craigslist from time to time and was wondering if they are worth an 18 hour drive if I see one in decent shape and reasonably priced.

T4

 

[scappoosebrad]

Before you travel, I would make phone contact, request several photos--both inside and outside of the camper... seek out some candid comments/photos about areas of wear and repair needs... get a detailed description of use and storage(was it outside/inside?) ... review other used campers to learn about a "good and fair price"...

Secondly, use this owners chat site to search out a "local" 4-wh owner who might be willing to do an "onsite inspection" of the camper...offer a nominal gift for the inspection if you want, e.g. I would be happy to do an onsite for you if you found a used camper in the Portland area...

These are steps I would take prior to the "travel"...

If the seller is willing to provide the above, with candid descriptions, and ideally you could find a local "4 Wheel" owner who might do an onsite inspection, then I would "travel"... for me, travel would be my last step prior to purchase...

I would really want to do the above do diligence prior to travel... GOOD LUCK!

 

[ckent323]

t4halo,

That is an "it depends" question.

The earliest models had pressed wood cabinets and cab over bed floor. If well cared for that is not necessarily a problem, however, I have seen many older FWC campers with degraded over cab flooring due to water damage as well as chips and dings in the cabinets that exposed the pressed wood. Also the wood grain on the pressed wood was actually paper with a wood grain print on it. Repairing any damage to those cabinets is not worth the time or trouble in my opinion.

I am not sure when FWC went away from using pressed wood.

The earlier campers used a different material for the flexible siding that had an insulation material built into it. I have seen two major issues with that material. 1) It became brittle over time and started cracking and 2) a lot of these seemed to develop black mold from condensation.

I am not sure when FWC switched over to the material that is now used on the campers.

As I have written elsewhere, I have a friend with a 1983 or 18984 Keystone (he is the original owner) and it has always been stored inside with the top up. The pop-up side material (so called canvas) is still flexible with no holes and there is no mold damage, While the interior fabric and cabinet finish is dated it is still in very good condition. They will be accompanying us and driving their 1993 Doge Diesel with this camper to and from Anchorage between late August and early October this year.

I had a 1984 Keystone that I bought used and it was in much worse condition than my friend's camper. The end panels were deteriorated, the cabinets were beat up, the over cab floor sagged and the canvas had staining (and shortly after a little use developed pinholes). I bought it cheap and had planned to refurbish it before I came across the 2007 Keystone we have now that I was able to buy at a very good price and which was not much more than the aggregate cost of refurbishing the old Keystone. The old Keystone did have good bones but I figured it would cost me at least $5,000 or $6,000 to refurbish it even doing the work myself (but buying pre-made end panels and pop-up siding).

The main thing I miss about the older Keystone is the size. the floor was wider and the interior felt roomier. Wendie misses that too.

The things we like about our newer Keystone. The larger over cab bed (ours is Queen size). The slide out bed extension vs the fold up bed extension with Aluminim legs in the old Keystone. The rollover couch in the new Keystone vs the old couch design with aluminum legs in the old Keystone . The pop-up siding material seems more robust in the new Keystone.

The cabinets seem to be a bit better built in the new Keystone however they are not solid wood and the "wood finish" is actually a wood grain printed paper which will permanently degrade if it gets wet and it gets rubbed just like the old Keystone cabinets. The IOTA charge controller is better than the charge controller in the old camper (I forget the make).

The sink, stove, water tank and propane tank were comparable between the two campers.

So if you are handy, have the time and enough cash to buy materials and you want a nice camper customized to your needs but don't want to spend over 10 or 12 K it may make sense to refurbish an older FWC.

My guess is that if you buy ready made, new side material, and end panels the cost is going to be upwards of $3000 from ATC (not sure as I have not checked recently). There are folks posting here that have made their own siding and end panels as well as installed them for less than that. Similarly for cabinets and headliners.

The hardest issue to remedy, unless you can weld Aluminum, is making the over cab bed larger than double (if that matters). You would have to strip the camper down to the bare frame to make an over cab bed size modification.

If you find a well cared for older camper I see no reason why it would not be worth evaluating.

I would ask lots of questions and look at lots of photos first. Here is a link to a reasonable used camper buyers checklist:

http://www.wanderthewest.com/forum/topic/3449-four-wheel-campers-used-buyers-guide/

FWIW: We traveled from Solvang, CA to Montana to buy our 2007 Keystone after I satisfied myself via lots of email Q&Q message exchanges that it was worth the trip. I do not regret the decision. We like our camper a lot.

I hope this is of some help.
Craig

 

[JaSAn]

I agree with Craig: it depends. IMO it depends on how much you can or want to do to repair/modify the camper. The older the camper the more things are going to need to be repaired or replaced.

I purchased a 1977 Grandby three years ago for $500. Exterior is beat up but it is structurally sound and watertight; the rest I did myself. I spent 3 months and an additional $3500 for a camper that I enjoy 100+ days a year; no regrets. Look at a bunch of builds here to get an idea of how they are built and the possibilities. The link to my build is below.

jim

P.S. You may need to move fast if you find one you like. My camper was posted on CL on Friday night and I called right away. When I looked at it Saturday morning there were already 3 guys in line to buy it if I didn't.

 

[esimmers]

When checking out older campers, be sure to measure tailgate width as well as distance between wheel wells. Older trucks and campers were wider. See the Used Camper Fit Guide on the fourwh.com web site:

<http://www.fourwh.com/used-camper-fit-guide/used-four-wheel-campers-general-fit-guide/>



USED CAMPER FIT GUIDE

** Please Note this list is only designed to help assist you in your research about “USED” Four Wheel Campers. Model sizes, camper widths, and designs have changed over the years and continue to change a little each year. Truck beds have changed quite a bit as well (different tail gate opening sizes, different lengths, and different bed depths). Four Wheel Campers are always changing to the adapt to the current truck variations. The charts below are a “general” used camper fit guide. Every old camper & truck combination is not listed below. Older Four Wheel Campers were typically wider and might not fit your newer truck!! We are not responsible for the accuracy of this list below, but that said, we do our VERY best too guide you in the right direction and help in any way we can. The Four Wheel Pop-up Campers have been built in so many different sizes & shapes over the years we can only help you the best we can. We will always ensure the correct camper fit when we are building a new camper for you. But we cannot be responsible for the older used campers for sale by private party. There have been too many camper and truck changes over the years. Please call or e-mail if you have any additional questions. It is always best to ask us further questions, rather assume something that might be incorrect. On ANY used four wheel pop-up camper, Make sure you take careful measurements of your truck bed and used camper before you buy it, so that you know it will fit. Happy Camping !
<http://www.fourwh.com/used-camper-fit-guide/used-four-wheel-campers-general-fit-guide/>

 

[PackRat]

I'm an Alaskan owner but much of what Craig posted is the same for them. Either you buy the best one you can find which will cost more money and may be further away or you buy one with some "issues". If you are prepared to repair/rebuild the FWC you found that is one thing, but if you are not capable due to work, lack of space or interest or tools or are in a hurry to use it this season....perhaps buying the best one you can find is the way to go.

It took me 13 months to find the Alaskan I have now. Mainly due to my budget and my interest in finding one that needed as little work as possible.

As noted above, you need to get a list of possible FWCs that fit your truck and fit your needs/design and one that is fitted out as you prefer. After that, you may be able to find one via craigslist or here on the WTW. There is a forum here where guys post campers for sale they have found on CL or even their own when they sell theirs.

Bottom line is....if it is too cheap there is probably a good reason. From there, trying to find one in good condition if you aren't interested in restoring it but just maintaining it and perhaps addressing some problems at a fair price is the issue.

Good Luck and welcome to the WTW....you have many FWC (and other camper) owners here who can help you out so maybe getting some more pics from the owner and posting them here will help you properly evaluate any possible camper you find. In addition, the FWC owners can help you out if you know the year of mfger and model and how it was equipped (either by FWC or the owner) and what to look out for like the pressed board panels mentioned as prone to failure unless the camper was really well taken care of and parked inside.

You could get lucky and find an older one that was parked in a garage/barn and had little exposure to the weather and then unless it was beat to death, you might be onto a "good one".

Good Luck!

 

[ckent323]

t4halo,

By the way: the main limiting camper fitment factor for the newer trucks is the narrower tailgate width. I think the space between the wheel wells is still 48".

Our 1993 Dodge trucks have a 65" wide tailgate opening and the space between the wheel wells is 50-1/2". The tailgate opening width dropped to 60-1/2" in the 1994 and newer Dodge Ram trucks (beware the Doge Ram box trucks - I think they are problematic).

Any of the old or new FWC campers will fit the 1993.

Craig

 

[philos65]

I drove from Laramie to a tiny town in east-central AZ to purchase my 80s era Keystone. $500. Communication was through text. The guy took good pictures. That said, the sideliner was shot, it turns out a previous owner had narrowed the floorpack by cutting out the aluminum frame and using 3/4" OSB.

I'd been looking for a couple months for something in this price range. I knew I'd be replacing and repairing most everything. This year is all about the roof. IN the next couple years it'll be the frame and interior. I want to use it (it is gutted now - no cabinets) and see how I want to configure it.

I think there's a continuum here. On one side is someone who wants something they can just start using, and doesn't want the headache of modifying or repair anything. On the other is someone like me who enjoys dinking around with stuff I've never done before, and would never get something that was new or even relatively new. Most people are in between.

When I get to the frame, I'm going to get a used TIG welder, teach myself to weld, and go for it. I'll get some nida-core and play with that for the floorpack. By that time I'll know how I want the interior set up. Like someone said above, the bed in my older Keystone is 33" wide. Right now I'll extend it to 52" by building shelving at the front of the camper to hold up the bed. All the water and batteries - anything heavy - goes right underneath the front window. Eventually I'll tear apart the body and extend the cab over part.

I got my camper a year and a half ago and am just getting around to seeing the end of the first phase. If you're in a hurry or have lots of other things to do, you're probably on the newer camper side of the continuum. I live in a house where the downstairs is mostly studs, and it doesn't bother me.

Just some thoughts...

Jeff...

 

[Vic Harder]

Jeff, I'm with you! I have a Hawk shell that I have built out as a "first go" at the pop-up thing. It has the "non-extended" cab over. I am pondering learnign to Tig (I can mig, sort of) and extending the cab over and roof... and whatever other mods I want to make to the frame. If you are willing to tear into these rigs, the customization possibilities are unlimitless!