I need more power Scotty!

Vic,

What will you do with all the free time now that you've wrung out all those nasty wiring misdirections? ;)
There is nothing quite like electrical issues to completely occupy the mind in the wee hours. (Except, maybe, photography or training horses.)
I, for one, have thoroughly enjoyed reading these posts (trip reports?).

Thanks,
Paul
 
thanks PaulT i really like this forum and you guys a guy can pull a dumb move or three and not get flamed!

first trip is in May 21 days of camping in Utah
 
Vic Harder said:
The max my solar will put out is 47 amps, and the 2awg will be plenty to carry that back to the starting battery.
So I did the math on this to answer my own question but wanted to confirm. Even if you have a 24 volt panel, because you're solar controller will deliver 12v to the battery when trying to determine total amps you divide by the output to the battery, not the output from the panel correct?

I'm confused because I thought I saw you bought 75/15 controllers and it appears that either one of your arrays would produce more than the controllers could take if we're dividing by 12v to compute amps.
 
Esus said:
So I did the math on this to answer my own question but wanted to confirm. Even if you have a 24 volt panel, because you're solar controller will deliver 12v to the battery when trying to determine total amps you divide by the output to the battery, not the output from the panel correct?

I'm confused because I thought I saw you bought 75/15 controllers and it appears that either one of your arrays would produce more than the controllers could take if we're dividing by 12v to compute amps.
Esus, I was wondering why you had such a beefy controller. The way I read it, I have two 75 volts max & 15 amps max input controllers.
https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Datasheet-Blue-Solar-Charge-Controller-MPPT-75-10,-75-15-&-MPPT-100-15-EN.pdf
 
Vic Harder said:
Esus, I was wondering why you had such a beefy controller. The way I read it, I have two 75 volts max & 15 amps max input controllers.
https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Datasheet-Blue-Solar-Charge-Controller-MPPT-75-10,-75-15-&-MPPT-100-15-EN.pdf
You're absolutely right. I was confusing the amps going to the controller vs the amps the controller outputs to the batteries. This is where my understanding of the underlying physics begins to fall a touch short. So to clarify, and correct me if I'm wrong please, a 24v panel at 240watts would deliver 10 amps to the controller, but when the controller converts to 12v to charge the battery, does that mean 20 amps output to the battery? (and therefore a slightly larger wire to handle it as well)
 
aside from conversion losses and some mppt voodoo, yes

generally, the distance between controller and battery is short, and the biggest wire the controller accepts is 8g, at least it was on mine
 
My interpretation is that the charge current (ie the current to the battery) is limited to 15A. Even if there is enough power available to support a higher charge current - the controller will limit that current to its maximum rating of 15A. The important thing to remember is that your solar panels will never give you their full rated output, and for much of the time will be operating at less than 70% of their rated wattage, so there is no need to design your charge controller for the maximum theoretical charge current. The MPPT 75/15 would be fine for up to ~300W of solar, if you will have more than that you may want to step up to a larger controller (or a second 75/15).
 
I would agree with most of this. The current is limited to 15A on both input and output. The 75/15 is rated for 440w of solar though, meaning that at the max 15A of input current the PV array would have to be hitting 29V.

How does this play out practically? Let's say you put 3 of those 100w panels on the roof in series (specs? likely something like max voltage of 20V and max current of 7 amps) your max combined voltage in series is 60v and at 7 amps (Series current doesn't add - Thanks Rando for pointing out my error here), and applying Rando's 75% rule of thumb = 45V at 5.25A or about 236 watts.

The controller will try to give the battery a specific voltage, depending on how you have configured the controller, but for argument's sake, say about .5V more than it is currently sitting. If the battery was at 13.2v, (close to fully charged for AGM's) then that's 13.7V. 236/13.7 = 17A. In my case, I am using a controller limited to 15A (not sure on that... see my question in the post two down) so I won't see that, and I am "wasting" those 2A or about 28 watts.

I think. :oops:
 
Vic Harder said:
If it was me, I'd spec the controller for the max of 21 amps, but I suspect I over built my system. I get to test it out soon! Spring is here, the snow is melting and the camper will hopefully get loaded onto the truck this week!
Awesome guys. Thanks for all the input, both on this thread and the one I started. I probably won't go with more than 240-260 watts of solar so the 75/15 should be just fine.

Now to choose between two thin 12v flexible panels in series or a single bigger rigid 24v. Pros and cons to both. About the same weight and cost too. Decisions decisions.

Maybe I'll bump into you this spring out in the desert Vic!
 
Not to be too pedantic (although this is the internet!), but your analysis is a little off. Three panels in series would give a maximum of 60V into the controller, but only 7A - in series the voltages add, in parallel the currents add. So you would get 60V and 7A into your controller, but the output would still be limited to 15A at the charge voltage (~ 14V) by the charge controller. The reality is a 100W "12V" panel flat mounted will output about 18V at about 4A (~70W) for a total of 210W - which would be right on the 15A (@14V) limit of the charge output of the MPPT controller.
Vic Harder said:
I would agree with most of this. The current is limited to 15A on both input and output. The 75/15 is rated for 440w of solar though, meaning that at the max 15A of input current the PV array would have to be hitting 29V.

How does this play out practically? Let's say you put 3 of those 100w panels on the roof in series (specs? likely something like max voltage of 20V and max current of 7 amps) your max combined voltage in series is 60v and max current is 21 amps, and applying rando's 75% rule of thumb = 45v and/or 15 amps. So in MOST cases, you would still get good efficiency out of that combo.

If it was me, I'd spec the controller for the max of 21 amps, but I suspect I over built my system. I get to test it out soon! Spring is here, the snow is melting and the camper will hopefully get loaded onto the truck this week!
 
Rando, you are too kind... "a little off" ... wow. I was flat out wrong. Yes, the current when in series is still just 7A.

And you know what, I had never thought of the 15A as being the limit to the charge current as well. Are you sure about that? I had assumed the controller would take the total power input and convert that to whatever the max current was when adjusting the voltage per the cycle the battery is in.
 
No worries, I confuse this sort of thing all the time when it comes to plumbing water, I am far better at plumbing electrons.

The spec sheet lists 15A as the charge current, which I would interpret to mean the maximum charge current. The battery connection is fused at 20A which would be consistent with a designed maximum current of 15A. Either way, it can't provide more than 20A without blowing the fuse.
 
Vic Harder said:
Esus, I was wondering why you had such a beefy controller. The way I read it, I have two 75 volts max & 15 amps max input controllers.
https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Datasheet-Blue-Solar-Charge-Controller-MPPT-75-10,-75-15-&-MPPT-100-15-EN.pdf
I just talked to the guys at shop.pkys.com and it turns out that you size the controller based on the battery voltage, not the panels if, say, you have them in series. So the 75/15 controller actually utilizes a max panel wattage of 200 (he grabbed the manual and checked). So my 240 watt 24v array will work with the controller, but if I were 100% efficient (240/12=20amps) I would be wasting 5 amps. Like Rando had mentioned though, expecting 70% at best, it's more like 14amps which would be fine. That said, I think the limit based on my conversation with those guys for this controller is closer to 200 watts than 300 watts. Certainly no room to add additional solar later without an additional controller.

It is worth mentioning that it's more realistic to divide by what you'll be bulk charging at, like 14+ volts instead of 12. But that changes a bit in a Lithium setup where you charge at a lower voltage because they have so much less resistance.
 
Esus said:
I just talked to the guys at shop.pkys.com and it turns out that you size the controller based on the battery voltage, not the panels if, say, you have them in series. So the 75/15 controller actually utilizes a max panel wattage of 200 (he grabbed the manual and checked). So my 240 watt 24v array will work with the controller, but if I were 100% efficient (240/12=20amps) I would be wasting 5 amps. Like Rando had mentioned though, expecting 70% at best, it's more like 14amps which would be fine. That said, I think the limit based on my conversation with those guys for this controller is closer to 200 watts than 300 watts. .
Yes, this conversation has helped me realize that I may have wanted a slightly bigger controller for the roof panel(s). My 265W panel is slightly over-sized for the 75/15. We'll see how this works out in practice soon... I got the camper mounted on the truck yesterday!
 
Vic Harder said:
Yes, this conversation has helped me realize that I may have wanted a slightly bigger controller for the roof panel(s). My 265W panel is slightly over-sized for the 75/15. We'll see how this works out in practice soon... I got the camper mounted on the truck yesterday!
I hear ya. My thinking was that if I wasn't generating quite enough solar I would just add another 50-220 watts, but that would mean an additional controller. I'm also considering a LiFePO4 battery. Battle Born Batteries sells a 100 ah (usable) with built in BMS for $850. It weighs in at 29lbs!! 3000-5000 cycles plus a 3 year warranty. Very tempting.

I've revised my setup having found a bunch of mistakes in my initial math. Looking forward to sharing with you guys once I iron out a few more wrinkles!
 
Esus said:
I hear ya. My thinking was that if I wasn't generating quite enough solar I would just add another 50-220 watts, but that would mean an additional controller. I'm also considering a LiFePO4 battery.
I do have two controllers, one for the roof and one for the portables. Still, the roof one may be undersized. We'll see!
 
After another week or so of research and many exchanges with the awesome folks on this forum and others, I have decided on my final config! I figured with all the great setup information on this mile long thread I'd toss my final setup on here to add to the compilation. Especially because I went Lithium!

I re-examined my FWC specs and manuals and got much more accurate picture of energy needs for both summer and winter:

2jd5f9u.jpg


So I'm looking at ~60 ah a day max and will more likely be in the ~50 ah per day range most of the time. I'd like my system to run for 2 days without any driving or charging, so ideally I'd like a battery in the ~100 ah usable range. Unfortunately, that's a lot of weight which led me to consider lithium over conventional lead acid.

Initially I thought LiFePO4 batteries would be too expensive for me. I even looked into building my own until I found a company in Nevada called Battle Born Batteries. Their prices were actually comparable to building my own. These guys are making a 100 ah 12v battery with a built in BMS (very important) and a 3 year warranty for $899. When I called them to chat they ended up giving me $50 off and they don't charge for shipping. So $850 for a 100 ah usable delivered right to my door step! Plus, and this was a huge consideration for me, the entire thing weighs only 29 lbs. 100 ah usable on a comparable lead acid system would have weighed 132 lbs and (for Lifelines) cost $590. So for a difference of only $260 the advantages are pretty hard to ignore. The pros of LiFePO4 for our kind of applications seem to be these:

  • drastically lighter
  • can be discharged well into the 80-100% vs 50-70% for LA
  • performs better at higher loads
  • faster, more efficient charging
  • 3000-5000 cycle vs 400-1500 LA

So I pulled the trigger on Lithium.

As for panel sizing, I looked at the average solar radiation for Denver as a baseline for the areas this rig will camp most. (UT, WY, CO, NM). It's 5.54 kWh per square meter. Multiplied by my panel kW (.29) I get 1.6066 kWh per day, or 1606.6 Wh per day. Divide by 12.8v for 126 amp hours per day, per square meter. I have .99 square meter of panel. So if I'm doing all of this math right, 126/.99 means I can expect to generate ~125 ah a day as a daily average in any season. But of course that's assuming I get my theoretical maximum amount of power, which of course, I won't. Considering my bad math, what other people have measured with similar setups in real life, less than ideal panel location in the morning and evening, shading from parking under trees, etc, bad weather, the ~%70 efficiency of panels to begin with, and fudge factor in general, I opted to go with 50% of that number. So hopefully I'm still around ~60 ah per day which is more than enough to meet my likely 50 ah a day energy needs.

I plan on achieving 290 watts of solar using a combination of flexible, lightweight panels. Two 120 watt Solar Cynergy panels and a 50 watt HQST panel came in at a total of $1.29 per watt. It was the best price for the size I could find. Also -- and again, weight is important -- a comparable rigid array would have been well over 40 lbs whereas these combine for a total of less than 10 lbs. I'm opting to wire them in parallel rather than series as shading on a single panel will make the entire array less efficient in series and the existing wire in the FWC is in the acceptable range to handle the parallel current.

To choose a controller, I looked at size and programability. 290 watts (divided by 12.8 = 22.7a). Even at 70% panel efficiency that is still 15.9a and I would like a little wiggle room in case I ever want to add more solar without adding another controller. So I opted for the Victron MPPT 100v/30a controller. I saw some mention in my research that MPPT wasn't as effective with LiFePO4. I can't see how that is true because the MPPT specifically provides a boost during bulk, and LiFePO4 batteries charge to nearly 99% in bulk. MPPT seems more advantageous for lithium than for LA considering this. Also, the Victron algorithm is fully programmable which is important considering my battery's different chemistry (although with the built in BMS the manufacturer says 14.4v bulk and 13.6v float is ideal which is very typical in many LA configurations).

Lastly, I want to know what is happening within this setup. I need good data! One of the most troubling things in my old rig that I drove the pan am with was not having very good insight into my setup. So, for this rig I'm adding the highly praised Victron BMV700 to the mix. Both the solar controller and the battery monitor store the data within the device, so I'm also buying a single bluetooth dongle that I can switch back and forth between the two to pull the data into my phone. If switching becomes a pain and the data is as useful as I hope, I'll add a second dongle later. It might very well turn out that just monitoring the battery by itself is sufficient, so I'll start with one. Having at least one also allows me to program both devices from my phone.

Not the cheapest setup. It comes in at about $1600. But it meets my energy needs, is extremely light, and should well outlast any comparable LA setup. My stoke is high!
 
That sounds like a great set up!

One thing to be aware of is that you really shouldn't charge LiFePO4 batteries when the temperature is below freezing as it causes permanent damage to the cells. I did not think of this, and as a result have an LiFePO4 pack that I have never installed in the camper. If you are expecting to use your camper in the rocky mountain winter (or leave it parked outside with the solar active) you may want to check with your pack manufacturer and see if the BMS has a low temperature cut off to stop it charging when the temperature drops below 0C. I have been thinking about all sorts of schemes to divert the solar power to heating the battery, then switch over to charging once the temper is sufficiently warm, but have not come up with a practical option yet.
 
Also - if you want to calculate your solar energy potential, PV Watt from NREL is a great tool:

http://pvwatts.nrel.gov/pvwatts.php

Based on flat mounted 290W (0.29 kW) array, you can expect 376 kWh a year - or ~1 kWh a day, which at 13V is a daily average of 75 Ah. PV Watts also gives you a month by month breakdown of your expected solar harvest.
 
rando said:
Also - if you want to calculate your solar energy potential, PV Watt from NREL is a great tool:

http://pvwatts.nrel.gov/pvwatts.php

Based on flat mounted 290W (0.29 kW) array, you can expect 376 kWh a year - or ~1 kWh a day, which at 13V is a daily average of 75 Ah. PV Watts also gives you a month by month breakdown of your expected solar harvest.
Thanks Rando! Wish I had found that calculator when I started crunching the number. Great resource. I might be slightly oversizing my solar but with just the two 120 watt panels for 240 watts I might be slightly undersizing.

With respect to the battery, its built in BMS does control for high and low temps as well as voltages it doesn't like. Thanks for pointing that out. These Battle Born guys seem to have a solid product. With their built in BMS it's hard to hurt the battery. Probably why they're willing to shell out the 3 yr warranty.

My thinking was that even in the cold they'll almost always have a full charge and that should suffice to kick the furnace on and get things warmed up. Charging them below freezing is bad, but using them isn't - at least that's my understanding.
 
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