Less War. More Parks.

Margaret Mead: Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has.

I just want to chime in to support our national parks, national monuments, state parks, any open space. Our national parks are loved to death, not only by Americans but increasingly by Europeans and Asians. When hubby and I were at Bryce last October, we were sometimes the only ones speaking English. We headed for Grand Staircase and San Rafale Swell to escape the crowds.

We have the senior pass, just got it last year, but have bought passes in the past. It is well worth it. We welcome paying for other state parks knowing that our fees help with maintenance. Some of the most beautiful parks are state parks such as Nevada's Valley Of Fire and Utahs's Goblin Valley, Snow Canyon and Kodachrome.

Open spaces, special places are necessary. A photo I took near Factory Butte (Hwy 24 near Hanksville, Utah) is hanging on our wall. It is there to remind me of the serenity and peace I felt looking at the stark landscape just as the almost rising sun lit up the storm clouds. It was so still. No wind, no traffic, no aircraft, almost otherworldly.

I am heartened by what you all had to say, that you value areas set aside for the future, to be preserved for the public. That is why you love to get outta town, to explore and just revel in what a beautiful planet we live on. Thanks for believing in our national heritage.
 
you know politics is never a good thing on this site and it has gotten out of control in the last week or so.

Being in civil service has nothing to do with how hard someone works...there are lazy people who take advantage and there are others who work there ##ss off; whether you are in civil service or the private industry has nothing to do with it. Just look how government contractors (private industry) have completely taken advantage of our system.

I happen to work in the private sector but I know lots of people who work civil service jobs and they are hard working and get very little compensation for the type of work they do.

I think you need to be careful making such blanket statements.

I have been very disappointed in the amount of politics I have heard on this site in the last week. I am not saying that I agree or disagree with what I have read but this is not a political site....its a camping site made up of all kinds of people with all kinds of view points...the one thing we all have in common is we love the outdoors, dirt roads, and camping.......Can't we just stick to that?

Cort


I feel that an appropriate role of this website is in advocacy. I had planned that years ago but tip toed around the subject so as not to offend anyone. However, it seems there is an appropriate time for everything and I feel that now is the time step up and do our parts. If anyone doesn't like it, they are free to ignore the contents of this advocacy forum completely.

I don't really see it as politics anyway. See the original post. It's some basic math. No reason for anyone to get upset.
 
I feel that an appropriate role of this website is in advocacy. I had planned that years ago but tip toed around the subject so as not to offend anyone. However, it seems there is an appropriate time for everything and I feel that now is the time step up and do our parts. If anyone doesn't like it, they are free to ignore the contents of this advocacy forum completely.

I don't really see it as politics anyway. See the original post. It's some basic math. No reason for anyone to get upset.


I have no problem with that. I am a huge proponent of advocacy (we have talked enough Aaron for you to know that). People from different backgrounds (even political backgrounds) and different beliefs often end up advocating for the same causes..such as cleaning up campgrounds, educating folks on backcountry etiquette, keeping public lands open to everyone...etc. Espousing political beliefs and direct judgments of groups of people will not get us anywhere. Directly blaming others for our problems does not get us any closer to a solutions. What is the point of that....how does that help us in promoting the activities that we (all of us here at this site) love? How does it help us pass it on to others?

Cort

Edited Post
 
I have no problem with that. I am a huge proponent of advocacy (we have talked enough Aaron for you to know that). People from different backgrounds (even political backgrounds) and different beliefs often end up advocating for the same causes..such as cleaning up campgrounds, educating folks on backcountry etiquette, keeping public lands open to everyone...etc. Espousing political beliefs and direct judgments of groups of people (civil service workers for example) will not get us anywhere. I was not commenting on the original post....though it is a bit political but DLN's comment that civil service workers and government employees in general are lazy. What is the point of that....how does that help us in promoting the activities that we (all of us here at this site) love? How does it help us pass it on to others?

DNL....I don't mean to pick on you and I am sure that it is probable coming off that way...I guess I am just trying to make a point that when advocating for causes you need to make sure that you include everyone and don't start singling out specific groups of people and blaming them for all our problems.

Cort


I agree about the public servants. But this is an opportunity to come together on the issue and talk it out rather than get upset. Maybe thats what we need to do - politics over beers and a campfire :)
 
I agree about the public servants. But this is an opportunity to come together on the issue and talk it out rather than get upset. Maybe thats what we need to do - politics over beers and a campfire :)


How about dropping the politics and advocating for a common cause over beers...politics will work it way in there on its own :D

Cort

oh and by the way I totally agree this is a good opportunity to come together as a whole and work on an issue.
 
Old Ike was smart enough to see that the only way to pay for new roads (the Interstate System) was to make them a defense priority. We seem to have lost that wisdom and I am tempted to say that those who place tax cuts ahead of road maintenance are weakening the country and a lot more dangerous than those commies that used to lurk under our beds. Now how do we make parks a defense priority? I am serious - they really are. But making the case in a few words may not be easy.
(As a partially relevant aside: a couple of weeks ago I was skiing at Lake Placid when the 10th Mountain division descended on us. Many soldiers were equipped with snow boards the military application of which has yet to be demonstrated. I am sure they believe parklands are worth defending.)
 
Cort, you have a very valid point concerning the appropriateness of expressing my opinions on this forum, really not the place for it. So I've edited the post and we can go back to the more important issue of supporting our park system.
 
DLN I am glad to know that my comments were taken as constructive and not an attack. I certainly was trying to be constructive but you know how things can be hard to read on the internet.

Maybe we need a political expression forum that is separate from the advocacy forum?

Cort
 
Maybe we need a political expression forum that is separate from the advocacy forum?

Seems like the WTW Lounge (just shootin the shat) forum could already work for this, since it's a not-necessarily-camping-related forum.

I think it's a great idea and goal to keep the politics out of our discussion of parks/public lands advocacy...but I think it's gonna take some very careful foot-work to avoid stepping on members toes from time to time.

If "advocacy" just takes the form of "clean up after yourself, don't screw up public lands, clean up after the slobs and/or tell them to clean up after themselves" then I think we can all agree on that without any controversial politics.

But funding of public lands (especially in National Parks, since revenue-producing resource-extractive activities aren't permitted there) is all about politics. I'm no fan of politics (I even find myself turning off NPR when they interview Ds and Rs about the recent budget debate
rolleyes.gif
), but I'm pretty sure that public-funding is nothing-but politics, and most of politics is about public funding. For example, I'm sure there are Members who love our national parks but also think "national-security" can't be compromised at all, and social programs should be cut instead (not me, but still...)

All I'm saying is that I'm all for keeping "no politics" as an ideal goal for an Advocacy forum/thread...but more-realistically, if we can at least try to think twice or three times about how much of a post is necessary (and not post while hot) it may help the civility of the forum and group-acceptability of the effort.
(BTW: I have to work on this in myself big-time -- "restraint of tongue and pen". I participate in other kinds of forums (fori?), too, and I frequently find myself enraged by any posts that I deem "arrogant" or "ignorant", and I have to struggle to keep from becoming a flaming-post jerk myself...and I don't always succeed.
sad.gif
)
- Mark
 
One more thing: In the 11 months that I've been on this forum I've been amazed at how civil it is 99% of the time!

Maybe it's because it's hard to get too hot about camping gear/rigs...but I'm sure there are truck forums where there are flame wars of Dodge vs Ford (sorry, Chevy ;))...and in computer/phone forums there are vicious exchanges about Mac vs PC and iOS vs Android.

Maybe we are (for the most part) just a more-mature (not necessarily older) and nicer bunch of folks here. I know it can stay that way! :)
 
Mark,

Bravo....well said, I could not agree more. We all need to be careful how we post...myself included. I think that your post sums it perfectly

Cort
 
"Being in civil service has nothing to do with how hard someone works...there are lazy people who take advantage and there are others who work there ##ss off; whether you are in civil service or the private industry has nothing to do with it. Just look how government contractors (private industry) have completely taken advantage of our system.

I happen to work in the private sector but I know lots of people who work civil service jobs and they are hard working and get very little compensation for the type of work they do. "

Late to the party here, but I must say as a civil servant AND an employee of the Department of Defense, I really appreciate your comments Cort.

There is no doubt oodles of waste in the Government system and dirt bag employees in every profession (public and private). Not to sound cliche but don't forget what we do keeps you all sleeping well at night and allows forums of free speech such as this to exist. It's more true than you will ever know. Could the sytem be better? You betcha. Just consider your alternatives.

'Nuff said, carry on.


Edit: I should have prefaced this by making it very clear I am in no way a fan of the war(s), just a peace loving human like the rest of you.
 
Land use is usually a matter of GREED packaged in political clothing, because that's the flavor most preferred by us sheep. The D and the R are really irrelevant when next to a politician's name when you get down to it; I look at it as advertising space offered to the highest bidder(s). Bought and paid for, and only there to fool us into further division amongst ourselves for the betterment of some billionaire's personal GREEDY interests. Which is exactly why we always have the money (new debt creation, actually) for WARS, but never anything for PEOPLE. It makes me sick. We have got to force ourselves to see beyond this toxic, divisive, political smokescreen or we'll continue to get exactly what we've gotten.

Anyways I fully support your shift towards advocacy, DD. I'm not going anywhere. Expanding the site to include vans and the like as well as including anyone interested in land use issues to come here and share information. That's huge. And you don't even need to rename the site for it to all to fit together like a glove!

I'd like to share another site where I've gone for years to keep up on advocacy issues. It's slow and simple, but the information the WSNFC keeps people apprised of is very current and relevant, and done without any political bias. Perhaps someone here is familiar with it? http://westernslopenofee.org/index2.php

Also, for people who would really like to become a bit more educated on how a lot of land use issues begin (specifically regarding our National Parks) and how they develop, I heartily recommend a book called Mountains Without Handrails. It should be required reading as far as I'm concerned, and also presented in a very apolitical way. It's over thirty years old, but the lessons it teaches are timeless.
 
I don't want to have a politics forum. It's true that we are treading into politics a bit here but I'd like to keep it on point with the advocacy message. In pointing out defense expenditures I'm hoping to educate on some simple facts, not preach about the politics of the issue. IMO if the National Park budget is 1/500th of military expenditures, and park budgets are still getting cut, then we have a simple and obvious math problem.

"Invest more at home" is about as political as this site is going to get in the advocacy department.
 
I've seen too many sites ruined by the introduction of politics. Things get heated, feelings get hurt and boom, everyone leaves.

Advocacy by its nature is going to introduce some politics but we (I mean all of us) need to do our best to limit it to the topic at hand. I have great faith in the users of WTW to keep it civil.
 
I think we all agree that partisan politics should not be part of our discussions unless you are like me who advocates for our wild places. Then, I can be very partisan. It is important to me that we always have these places. Some people are happy with just taking the Grand Circle Tour of our great Southwest but others, like me and yourselves like to experience more. There are places for everyone from sightseers bagging that photo in front of the entrance sign to slot canyoneers.

I just wish people would take a moment to reflect on that tossed cigarette stub or receipt that they flippantly toss. Or, the ones who ignore the "Stay Off the Meadow" signs in favor of a shortcut to think about their actions multiplied by 100. That is why I prefer the backroads for solitude and spirit renewal or to photograph a beautiful landscape without someone asking you to please take their group photo.

Like many of you, it makes me sad when special interests who pay for powerful lobbyists play a nasty game. I think we need to quit being so self-centered and think about future generations. My grandfather was a logger from 1920 to 1965 in Washington state. i once asked him why they cut so many trees and he said that when they looked out over the foothills and mountains that the forest went on forever. And, I am guilty of living in a wood house, albeit not a big one, but still built with lumber. At least there are some vestiges of the giants, not huge ecosystems but somewhat of an idea of once was.

Enough ranting, philosophizing. We can hardly wait for our camper. And, yes, I know, a used one would be better as far as resources go but we looked and looked and as we looked we got older. We will just take good care of it and pass it along to like-minded folks.
 
To Mark and the rest of us who find ourselves turning off NPR whenever whatever. Turning off NPR (and I am not suggesting you listen to something else) is not a sign of disliking politics: it is a sign of insufficient beer consumption to fully destroy rational thought. One of the reasons we need the national parks is so that there are places where we do not need to turn off NPR because we cannot turn it on to begin with. We need places where we can escape the constant media blither that is driving all of us nuts. A price tag of about $10 a person ( a couple of beers if you drink healthy) seems very cheap.
 
There are some more numbers tossed around in this article:

http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com/2010/11/typical-americans-income-tax-contribution-towards-national-parks-little-more-cost-latte7254

Where again the point is made that those who want funding for parks plus other investments in American infrastructure, research, education, etc. are being forced to fight over the scraps.
 
...but I'm sure there are truck forums where there are flame wars of Dodge vs Ford (sorry, Chevy ;))...


What is your problem with Chevy?! Now I'm pissed :) This is getting personnal :D
 
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