rruff
Advanced Member
Thanks for the info! What is your solar setup and how many days (charge cycles) approximately?
Low cost DIY Lithium camper batteries.
enelson
Senior Member
130W peel and stick, 2 Unisolar panels. Battery management via Electrodacus, Solar Battery Management System (SBMS 120). I've been supporting the Electrodacus Kickstarter for a few years and am now on the third version SBMS. The SBMS has cell balancing and is configurable for various battery types.
The panels feed into input one on the SBMS. The truck feeds input two, via the trailer aux battery supply on the 7-pin connector. The truck voltage needs to be stepped up to a solar panel voltage of around 17V. I do this with a Pololu step-up supply board which can supply up to 5A.
Total cycles is unknown since lose this data whenever I power cycle the SBMS. We rarely get the batteries under 13V so I'm not really cycling them. We have well over 100 nights camping on these batteries, maybe 150. I've been more worried about charging when the batteries are below freezing than low current charging.
The panels feed into input one on the SBMS. The truck feeds input two, via the trailer aux battery supply on the 7-pin connector. The truck voltage needs to be stepped up to a solar panel voltage of around 17V. I do this with a Pololu step-up supply board which can supply up to 5A.
Total cycles is unknown since lose this data whenever I power cycle the SBMS. We rarely get the batteries under 13V so I'm not really cycling them. We have well over 100 nights camping on these batteries, maybe 150. I've been more worried about charging when the batteries are below freezing than low current charging.
I have not heard of this issue with lithium batteries before, and it doesn't look like the author of that forum post was able to support it with any sort of reference so I doubt there is much truth to it. The low temperature charging issue is well documented, and the easiest solution is to reduce the charge currents below freezing, so that is what I went with.rruff said:
Quick real world update - after a 10 day trip under somewhat difficult power conditions (warm days for the fridge, cool nights for the furnace with low solar angles) the lithium pack is still working as expected. Lowest discharge (parked for 2 days in shady but warm conditions at Aravaipa Canyon trail head) was down to 60% SOC, and generally cycled down to 75% and then back up to 95% SOC with a combination of solar and driving. We did drive some pretty rough roads in Ironwood Forrest National Monument, with no apparent mechanical issues to the assembled pack.
Without any balancing, all the cells are still within 10mV of each other, so balancing doesn't seem like it will be an issue.
Without any balancing, all the cells are still within 10mV of each other, so balancing doesn't seem like it will be an issue.
rruff
Advanced Member
Thank you both for the info!enelson said:
I could not find any other comments regarding low charge rates being particularly bad for these batteries, so I've decided not to worry about it. I'm leaning towards hooking it up to the alternator. The alternator might not fully charge it, but it should add quite a bit if the battery is low. I see you are using a voltage step-up for the alternator, which may be a better way to go. But 5a is not a lot.
Does Electrodacus have a temperature cut off? Seems like that would be the best way to prevent low temperature charging.
BTW, this is the most thorough treatment I've found of LiFePO4 on the internet: http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/lifepo4_on_boats&page=1
rruff
Advanced Member
Rando wrote:
"As for alternator charging, it all depends on your alternator voltage. In my case, my alternator is ECU controlled and quickly drops down to ~13.5V, when combined with my skinnier wires to the battery doesn't provide much charging current. If your alternator stays up at 13.9 - 14.2V you should charge just fine until the BMS shuts off the batteries. If you have heavy gauge wires running back there, you may want to check that you don't pull too much current. These batteries will happily charge at 1C, so 150A draw! You would also need to size your BMS appropriately.
Another, more expensive but more elegant option is a DC-DC charger, which would both boost the voltage and limit the current. You would want one that is adjustable for LiFePO4 voltages."
I'd forgotten this comment. Since my Tundra is the same year as your Tacoma, the alternator probably behaves the same. LiFePO4 cells nominally charge at ~3.45v (13.8v for the pack), so the charge voltage needs to be at least that high. Think I'll backtrack to using only solar for the house battery and keep my starting system the way it is.
"As for alternator charging, it all depends on your alternator voltage. In my case, my alternator is ECU controlled and quickly drops down to ~13.5V, when combined with my skinnier wires to the battery doesn't provide much charging current. If your alternator stays up at 13.9 - 14.2V you should charge just fine until the BMS shuts off the batteries. If you have heavy gauge wires running back there, you may want to check that you don't pull too much current. These batteries will happily charge at 1C, so 150A draw! You would also need to size your BMS appropriately.
Another, more expensive but more elegant option is a DC-DC charger, which would both boost the voltage and limit the current. You would want one that is adjustable for LiFePO4 voltages."
I'd forgotten this comment. Since my Tundra is the same year as your Tacoma, the alternator probably behaves the same. LiFePO4 cells nominally charge at ~3.45v (13.8v for the pack), so the charge voltage needs to be at least that high. Think I'll backtrack to using only solar for the house battery and keep my starting system the way it is.
I still get about 4-8A of charging out of my alternator, even at 13.5V, so I wouldn't totally write off alternator charging. It is way less current than you could get out of the alternator, but is about the same as winter time solar charging.
Another inexpensive option I think I mentioned earlier would be to add a DC-DC converter and wire the output to the input of solar charge controller (assuming an MPPT charge controller). Something like this would get you at least 20A of alternator charging if your MPPT is rated for it:
https://www.amazon.com/uxcell-Converter-Regulator-Transformer-Waterproof/dp/B01LWXI4IE/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1512316135&sr=8-7&keywords=30a+dc+to+dc+boost+converter
With 2 blocking diodes (one on the DC-DC converter and one on the feed from your solar panel) you wouldn't even need a switch or anything - it would just work whenever the alternator is running.
Another inexpensive option I think I mentioned earlier would be to add a DC-DC converter and wire the output to the input of solar charge controller (assuming an MPPT charge controller). Something like this would get you at least 20A of alternator charging if your MPPT is rated for it:
https://www.amazon.com/uxcell-Converter-Regulator-Transformer-Waterproof/dp/B01LWXI4IE/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1512316135&sr=8-7&keywords=30a+dc+to+dc+boost+converter
With 2 blocking diodes (one on the DC-DC converter and one on the feed from your solar panel) you wouldn't even need a switch or anything - it would just work whenever the alternator is running.
rruff
Advanced Member
Thanks! I hadn't seen anything like that. I was looking at much more expensive 12v-12v chargers.
I'm guessing I'd need an MPPT controller then? Also, have you found a good way to cut off charging at low temperatures?
I'm guessing I'd need an MPPT controller then? Also, have you found a good way to cut off charging at low temperatures?
photohc
Senior Member
Rando, I'm getting ready to assemble my battery and wondered what are your thoughts on solder vs spot welding? Seems to have much arguments against using a hot iron on the batteries. Buying a spot welder would negate the cost effectiveness of this build. By the way, I did order those plastic holders and it looks like this is the way to go in the assembly of these packs. Thank you for this post!
I used a soldering gun to assemble my pack, and it didn't appear to cause any issues. The batteries really don't even get warm to the touch, particularly if you use flux and a high wattage iron that can dump heat quickly into a localized area on the terminals of the cells.
I used a three step procedure - I lined up all the individual cells in their grids, applied flux to all the +ve terminals, then went over with my soldering gun and added a ~5mm diameter pool of leaded solder to each terminal, then finally I soldered the bus wire to the terminals. I pretinned the wire where it was going to be soldered to the terminals. Then I flipped the packs over and did the -ve side. Using this technique it was probably 4-5 seconds with the iron to apply the pool of solder and only 1-2 seconds to solder the wire to each terminal.
The proof is in the pudding though - my battery pack measured in right at 150Ah, which is within 5% of where it should be, so both the cells are OK, and the solder seems to have made good connections.
I have a feeling this is another 'internet controversy' like the low charge rate issue raised above. Sure, if you are soldering AA sized cells and leaving the iron on each cell for 30s it could be an issue, but a few seconds on a D size cell is not going to cause a significant temperature rise.
I used a three step procedure - I lined up all the individual cells in their grids, applied flux to all the +ve terminals, then went over with my soldering gun and added a ~5mm diameter pool of leaded solder to each terminal, then finally I soldered the bus wire to the terminals. I pretinned the wire where it was going to be soldered to the terminals. Then I flipped the packs over and did the -ve side. Using this technique it was probably 4-5 seconds with the iron to apply the pool of solder and only 1-2 seconds to solder the wire to each terminal.
The proof is in the pudding though - my battery pack measured in right at 150Ah, which is within 5% of where it should be, so both the cells are OK, and the solder seems to have made good connections.
I have a feeling this is another 'internet controversy' like the low charge rate issue raised above. Sure, if you are soldering AA sized cells and leaving the iron on each cell for 30s it could be an issue, but a few seconds on a D size cell is not going to cause a significant temperature rise.
You would need an MPPT controller to use a DC-DC converter. I ended up going without a temperature cutoff as my charge rates are usually < 0.05C and always less than 0.1C But if you want to add one, these could be used:rruff said:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/US-Stock-2pcs-Temperature-Switch-Thermostat-KSD301-0-C-Celsius-C-NC-Normal-Close/401295899719?hash=item5d6f197c47:g:9OgAAOSwSlBY00uU
rruff
Advanced Member
Found this regarding alternator charging: http://forum.expeditionportal.com/threads/168085-Pro-Rig-V2-0-Home-Built-Compact-Composite-Pop-up/page23
"The first key, in my case, was to disable the trucks (2010 Frontier) clever alternator management system. I'm not totally clear on what the alternator is doing, but it is supposedly optimizing battery charging and saving gas by not constantly keeping the alternator under load. I imagine other newer vehicles have similar systems these days and options for disabling may vary. For me, I pulled a 20A fuse under the hood labeled "Alternator/Horn". This lets the alternator behave in a good old fashioned dumb way - pushing current to anything that will take it (in this case the camper battery).
I believe there is still an alternator protection circuit built in to keep the alternator from overheating - not positive on this though.
My wiring is double 6ga for the positive from the truck battery (+) to the Victron Cyrix Li-ct battery combiner. (-) is 4ga to the body of the truck close to the camper. When I start the truck, the combiner closes (connects the batteries) as expected. Charging ramps up quickly to almost 70 amps. After about one minute, the charging rate slowly drops to about 40 amps at idle and about 50 amps at higher RPM. After a few more minutes it settles in between 30 and 40 amps. This slow drop may be the alternator protecting itself, not sure. Either way, this is great - I think my alternator is rated at 120 amps so much time at 70+ amps would likely fry it. I did one real deep discharge and the alternator put 90ah back in to the battery with no apparent problems."
"The first key, in my case, was to disable the trucks (2010 Frontier) clever alternator management system. I'm not totally clear on what the alternator is doing, but it is supposedly optimizing battery charging and saving gas by not constantly keeping the alternator under load. I imagine other newer vehicles have similar systems these days and options for disabling may vary. For me, I pulled a 20A fuse under the hood labeled "Alternator/Horn". This lets the alternator behave in a good old fashioned dumb way - pushing current to anything that will take it (in this case the camper battery).
I believe there is still an alternator protection circuit built in to keep the alternator from overheating - not positive on this though.
My wiring is double 6ga for the positive from the truck battery (+) to the Victron Cyrix Li-ct battery combiner. (-) is 4ga to the body of the truck close to the camper. When I start the truck, the combiner closes (connects the batteries) as expected. Charging ramps up quickly to almost 70 amps. After about one minute, the charging rate slowly drops to about 40 amps at idle and about 50 amps at higher RPM. After a few more minutes it settles in between 30 and 40 amps. This slow drop may be the alternator protecting itself, not sure. Either way, this is great - I think my alternator is rated at 120 amps so much time at 70+ amps would likely fry it. I did one real deep discharge and the alternator put 90ah back in to the battery with no apparent problems."
Just finished reading. Wow. This is definitely something I would love to do. I have two AGM which equals 110lbs. I have the 165 watt solar panel on the roof. I have a lot of learning to do as I am a basic level electrical knowledge person though just enough to do my own solar and batteries. Soldering them together will be one of the challenges. I have just converted to a side dinette and so have two separate battery boxes for the current AGMs. This is inspiring thread and eventually I hope to make it happen. Thanks for the great write up.
Besides being a bit time consuming, the soldering part really isn't at all challenging and gets much faster as you figure out a routine. With your woodwork skill I am sure you could come up with a slick way of assembling them into a custom sized pack.
As I mention before, I have no idea how many cells the guy on ebay has, so if this interests you, you may want to purchase the cells soon.
As I mention before, I have no idea how many cells the guy on ebay has, so if this interests you, you may want to purchase the cells soon.
Just checked and he still has them.... price is $180 for the 120 but the shipping was $56. Guess that is the way it goes.
This knowledge base is also a couple steps past my comfort zone ... but that is okay if i can learn as I go (slowly). My AGM batteries are 6 years old .... so might as well test the depth of the water with both feet.
PS woodworking is one skill I have but electrical is not.... In my trade I can say "I don't make mistakes.... I'm just not done"
Won't burn the house down either! This has been great info and I probably will give it a try!
This knowledge base is also a couple steps past my comfort zone ... but that is okay if i can learn as I go (slowly). My AGM batteries are 6 years old .... so might as well test the depth of the water with both feet.
PS woodworking is one skill I have but electrical is not.... In my trade I can say "I don't make mistakes.... I'm just not done"
Won't burn the house down either! This has been great info and I probably will give it a try!
rruff
Advanced Member
Maybe a better solution to increasing alternator voltage. http://www.fjcruiserforums.com/forums/stereo-electronics-electrical/434545-how-increase-alternator-output-voltage-very-pic-heavy-5.html#post6206809
You can also buy fuses that do the same thing: https://www.hkbelect.com/
You can also buy fuses that do the same thing: https://www.hkbelect.com/
From the iH8mud forum:
https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/alternator-voltage-booster.503895/
Detailed post cut and pasted from there below. IF you do this, make sure you know the consequences. This will change how your alternator works. I still think the C-Tek D250S is the better solution, as it only affects the voltage going to the camper batteries, not to the whole truck.
"The generally accepted range of volts out of an alternator for charging is between 13.8 volts to 14.6 volts. On some newer vehicles, (2009 onwards) the manufacturers are electing to us ECU controlled alternators to aid fuel economy and emission figures. Once the starting battery/s reach sufficient charge to start the vehicle (usually around 80%) the alternator drops to a supply voltage of around 13.2 volts.
The minimum voltage to charge a wet cell lead acid battery effectively for optimum performance is 13.8, calcium/calcium sealed maintenance free lead acid is around 14.2 and for flat plate fully sealed agm, gel or spiral wound agm the voltage needs to be 14.4.
So far, the vehicles that I know for certain with these alternators are Toyota LC200, all 70 series and prado 150 series. Toyota started using these alternators around 2009/2010.
So using these diode's to trick the alternator is only needed if you are wanting to use one of the newer technology batteries that require 14.2 or 14.4 and your alternator is only putting out 13.8 or less. If you are achieving voltages of 14.6, count yourself lucky to have a perfect charge voltage. Over 14.6, you will cook your batteries.
My only concern with these Alternator Voltage Booster diodes is that some of them require you to replace the 7.5 amp fuse with the diode and the one I tried about 12 months ago did not blow even at 20amps.
Instead I elect to find the wire that runs between the fuse and the alternator and cut and solder a quick connector in. This allows the ability to replace the diode(built into the quick connector) with a simple jumper wire, returning the vehicle to standard but most importantly retaining the factory 7.5amp fuse."
https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/alternator-voltage-booster.503895/
Detailed post cut and pasted from there below. IF you do this, make sure you know the consequences. This will change how your alternator works. I still think the C-Tek D250S is the better solution, as it only affects the voltage going to the camper batteries, not to the whole truck.
"The generally accepted range of volts out of an alternator for charging is between 13.8 volts to 14.6 volts. On some newer vehicles, (2009 onwards) the manufacturers are electing to us ECU controlled alternators to aid fuel economy and emission figures. Once the starting battery/s reach sufficient charge to start the vehicle (usually around 80%) the alternator drops to a supply voltage of around 13.2 volts.
The minimum voltage to charge a wet cell lead acid battery effectively for optimum performance is 13.8, calcium/calcium sealed maintenance free lead acid is around 14.2 and for flat plate fully sealed agm, gel or spiral wound agm the voltage needs to be 14.4.
So far, the vehicles that I know for certain with these alternators are Toyota LC200, all 70 series and prado 150 series. Toyota started using these alternators around 2009/2010.
So using these diode's to trick the alternator is only needed if you are wanting to use one of the newer technology batteries that require 14.2 or 14.4 and your alternator is only putting out 13.8 or less. If you are achieving voltages of 14.6, count yourself lucky to have a perfect charge voltage. Over 14.6, you will cook your batteries.
My only concern with these Alternator Voltage Booster diodes is that some of them require you to replace the 7.5 amp fuse with the diode and the one I tried about 12 months ago did not blow even at 20amps.
Instead I elect to find the wire that runs between the fuse and the alternator and cut and solder a quick connector in. This allows the ability to replace the diode(built into the quick connector) with a simple jumper wire, returning the vehicle to standard but most importantly retaining the factory 7.5amp fuse."
rruff
Advanced Member
It appears to have an automatic charge system (rather than programmable) and is not designed for lithium. Or am I misunderstanding?Vic Harder said:
If you already have an MPPT charge controller set up for your lithium batteries - then a simple DC-DC 12 -24V converter and a couple of diodes seems like the way to go. No need to mess around with your alternator output, far cheaper than a DC-DC charger and uses the correct charge profile that is already programmed into your MPPT charger.
+1rando said:
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