One Last Attempt: Has anyone used their FWC water system in below freezing temps?

[Wallowa]

I feel like I am beating a dead horse; broken record indeed...perhaps because it is impossible to accomplish.

But has anyone used the FWC water system [hot/cold, drain plumbing and storage] when temps are well below freezing?

If Yes; how did you keep the system from freezing?

If I go through all the of moves of: Keeping furnace on, hot water tank full and on, 6 gals hot water dumped into main storage tank, drain outside shower fixtures, all cabinet and turnbuckle doors open; will that be sufficient to stop anything from freezing when temps are in teens or single digits?

I have sent three emails to FWC making this same inquiry; no responses.

Thanks and rest assured that I will not ask this question again on the FWC forum.

Phil

 

[longhorn1]

You don't want your turnbuckle doors open letting in the cold. I classify this as "High Risk, Low Reward". I wouldn't risk it on my camper, water jugs. Others swear they do it without issues. Do you want to undertake the risk, when water jugs will let you enjoy your trip

 

[Stan@FourWheel]

Hey Phil

I e-mailed you a Winterizing sheet back on 12/22.

Did you get that ? Not sure why no one replied back from here. I will look into it. Disappointing to hear.

For your winter use question:

Talking to our customers and dealers using the campers in cold weather (Wyoming, Colorado, Canada, etc.) it can usually be accomplished with some extra steps.

Most customers seem to be leaving the hot water heater on, leaving their furnace on a low setting, opening (cracking) the kitchen cabinet doors to allow warm air inside the cabinets where the water lines are, and running the water at the faucet from time to time to keep water flowing occasionally.

Hope this helps for the moment. sorry for the slow, no replies from the FWC home front I'll look into it.

Thank you.

Stan

 

[rando]

Yes, I use my fleet flatbed water system regularly at below freezing temperatures. I use any combination of the techniques you describe above depending on just how cold it is - heat up the hot water tank, run the furnace on low, dump the hot water tank back into the main tank etc. Coldest temperature I have done this at is probably the single digits, and I do it regularly down into the low 20's and high teens. However, it usually climbs back above freezing during the day.

 

[Wallowa]

Longhorn,

Thanks. Sage comments. I have 2" thick and 4" wide solid foam board cut into length' that are velcroed along the top of the truck bed rails to the sides and front of my Hawk that "seal" off the truck bed from incoming debris and to a degree traps the air between the truck bed and camper. It also adds insulation to the outside of the lower camper box. The bed is metal and transmits heat and loses heat fast...but even the minimum dead air space helps..and heating that space with the help of my furnace would be worth the propane.

Yes, it boils down to "risk vs. reward", such is life, unless someone has actually camped in very low temps with a full water system in a Hawk and can describe how they accomplished this [and I feel that will work for me...] I will go for the LCD and drain the system, carry water and heat water on the stove.

Phil

 

[rando]

On a more general level, I don't think anyone can answer the question you are asking in an absolute way - there are just too many variables. How cold it is and for how long, whether you close the camper up during the day, or leave it set up, or are driving in super cold temperatures. All we can say is what has worked for us and under approximately what circumstances.

I would suggest you try it some time when it is not going to be super cold and see what works for you. If you decide it is too much work, it is not much work just to winterize on the spot - dump your tank (into jugs or gerry can if you want to keep the water) and run your pump dry, pull the strainer to be on the safe side, and you are good to go.

 

[nikonron]

What is the purpose of heating the space between camper and truck bed, there are no water lines in there. Ron

 

[Wallowa]

Stan,

No sweat and Rando great feedback....especially mapping out the temp regime [lows and highs]....I have a 6-7 ski trip scheduled in Feb and will scope out the expected lows and highs for the period I am parked in the mountains...

Like in all risk management, in the end it depends on subjective judgments made on best estimates..

Appreciate the responses..

Phil

I am even thinking of slipping some of the chemical heating packets [handwarmers] in and around the plumbing if temps get "critical"..some generate heat for 6+ hours. Or, like someone once said they did, dump in 4 quarts of cheap vodka!

 

[ckent323]

We have used our 2007 Keystone camper with water system into temperatures in the mid-teens overnight on a couple of trips

We have a garage type thermostat in the camper that kicks on just above freezing to keep the interior sufficiently warm. We also have a hot water heater that we use. So far no issues.

I have considered adding some solid foam under the camper floor (our camper is raised 3/4") and around the water tank at the side where it is close to the camper outside wall (it is under the bench that is under the window on the truck cab end of the camper) for additional protection.

I would be hesitant to use the camper with water in the system without additional insulation under the camper and around the water tank if daytime temps were also below freezing.

In any event I would not use water in the system if I could not keep the camper interior (specifically in the floor area) above freezing all the time.

P.S. Under simple circumstances, the rate that heat energy leaves the water is proportional to the difference in its temperature and the ambient temperature, it will also be proportional to the surface area of the water. So keeping the camper interior above freezing obviously very much helps and the lines with higher surface area relative to volume are more likely to freeze before the tank does (periodically running water helps keep the lines warm and also can be used to crudely gauge if the system is starting to freeze (ice in the water lines - but I would not rely on this as a measure only as a test if things seem to be too cold).

The challenge in being more accurate is that fluids are very complicated. Currents in the water will change the result as will minerals and things dissolved in the water. Also as the surface of the water freezes it helps insulate the interior.

(as an aside - in Physics gasses are fluids so the atmosphere is a fluid - as we all know weather prediction is very difficult).

A big question is what is the surface in a tank or line. It is the side(s) or part that is the coldest in a tank in a camper, that is probably the bottom and maybe one side in contact with or close to the outside camper wall. So these are the two best places to add insulation.

I think the relatively warm layer of water above or to the side of the surface in contact with the camper wall or floor will help keep the surface from freezing (at least until the remaining volume of water in the tank or line is almost the same temperature as the freezing surface). For a line of circular cross section it is easier to freeze the water due to less volume and the larger surface area relative to the volume. So that is why keeping the camper interior (including the areas where the water lines run) above freezing is essential.

I hope this is some help.

Craig

 

[Wallowa]

What is the purpose of heating the space between camper and truck bed, there are no water lines in there. Ron

Nikon,

The plumbing and tanks are in what I call the 'floor box or tub' of the Hawk, that inserts into the truck bed. Heating the area around that tub will keep temps up inside the tub in the areas surrounding the water system...will it use a lot of propane? Yes, but that is "propane well spent" if I gain a few degrees increase in box/tub/system temps by leaving the turnbuckle doors open. Remember I have effectively sealed the truck bed box to the sides of Hawk with the rigid foam strips creating a dead air space into which heated air will be funneled through the turnbuckle doors.

Rando,

Yes, I agree with your last observations. It will come down to an empirical gauging of "how low can you go" and not damage any part of the water system.....the outside shower fixtures and system drain line to the outside spigot on the rear wall of the Hawk are a major concerns. I will certainly bail out and dump the water if needed. I like your idea of toting several 5 gallon jugs to capture water if I have to drain system in the field; might just pre-fill them and carry the extra weight to simplify draining the system if I have to...will think that over.

Stan,

I appreciate the "Winterizing sheet" you sent me in Dec; but it was more of a "how to drain the system" than how to retain the system under winter conditions....

Again, love our Hawk and really appreciate this and all other discussions on the forum.

Phil

Hi Craig...just saw you comments...I will try to get solid insulating foam board around and under the area where the main water storage tank is located...hopefully I can un-velcro the foam strips and insert foam down the side of the box and if not then through the left front turnbuckle hatch..not going to remove the camper...it is a "permanent" mount. If I was competent enough to do it, installing a grated vent on the inside wall above the water tank [below that seat and storage section] would allow passage of heated air into the section of the box around the water tank. Wonder how much room there is on that wall above or to the side of the water tank; would not want to cut into the tank! Unfortunately no as-built schematics.

 

[nikonron]

I believe the gain from heating that area would be very little, the camper box is 3/4" plywood and what heat is in that space is going to rise straight up and be lost out through any little crevice it can find. Also the water tank is sitting right on the bottom of that plywood box. Just thinking here. Ron

 

[Wallowa]

I believe the gain from heating that area would be very little, the camper box is 3/4" plywood and what heat is in that space is going to rise straight up and be lost out through any little crevice it can find. Also the water tank is sitting right on the bottom of that plywood box. Just thinking here. Ron

Ron,

Good points. Unfortunately it will remain a WAG if heating the area between the truck bed and the box that I have tried to seal would be effective in diminishing the heat loss from the water system. My strips of rigid foam form a darn good encapsulation of everything forward of where the tailgate was mounted. Pretty much a dead air space. I recopied [see below] an idea I float to Craig about cutting in a vent to allow heated air inside the Hawk to flow into the camper floor tub that is walled off and contains the water tank and some tubing. Wish I had a structural drawing showing what is where behind the inside left and front walls of tub...Stan you there?

Hey I am grasping for straws and hopefully will strike on something that will make the Hawk a four season camper.


Phil

[Hi Craig...just saw you comments...I will try to get solid insulating foam board around and under the area where the main water storage tank is located...hopefully I can un-velcro the foam strips and insert foam down the side of the box and if not then through the left front turnbuckle hatch..not going to remove the camper...it is a "permanent" mount. If I was competent enough to do it, installing a grated vent on the inside wall above the water tank [below that seat and storage section] would allow passage of heated air into the section of the box around the water tank. Wonder how much room there is on that wall above or to the side of the water tank; would not want to cut into the tank! Unfortunately no as-built schematics.]

 

[ckent323]

Phil,

I just read your updated comment (after you saw my post). In many truck beds there is room between the sides of the camper box and the wheel wells (usually the only close point) to add 1 or 2 inches of solid foam insulation. The best foam insulation is around R6 or R7 an inch. Adding insulation to the wood box even attaching it on the outside and under the floor, if that is possible, will help. Since all the water lines and water storage are near the floor keeping the camper box warm with the help of insulation makes sense and will probably help a lot if done well and in conjunction with keeping the camper interior above freezing.

In my camper the heater is near the floor and yes, the heat rises but as long as the floor area remains sufficiently above freezing to keep more heat going into the water than is being lost through the wood box, the water will not freeze. Unfortunately this is hard to quantify so that is why adding insulation to the box makes a lot of sense.

Perhaps stating the obvious, just as in your house you are trying to make the heat loss (in Winter) from the water lines and tanks slower than the heat can come into your volume (in this case from the interior of your camper). Saying this another way, you must remove more heat from the water (through say the camper floor) than it is getting from the interior heating of camper to cause it to freeze, even if that difference is small the water will not freeze as long as more heat is getting into the water than is going out.

You can do this a couple of ways, use insulation to cut down the heat flow out or make the heat flow in higher (i.e. keep the interior of the camper hotter and well above freezing). Combining the two and minimizing the heating of the camper (particularly while you are not in it) makes the most economic and comfort sense to me.

OK, I think that is enough pedantic expatiation.

Craig

 

[Wallowa]

Craig,

Hmmmm, not pedantic but a "three-peat"..

There is 1/2" on each side between the wheel wells of the Tundra and Hawk tub....nice snug fit!

Phil

 

[nikonron]

My biggest concern would be the water pump itself, if it's cold enough, long enough to worry about water in the tank freezing that won't be the problem area. You can always recirculate water in the tank and just moving the vehicle will mix or agitate the water in the tank. Granted it's going to have to be a hard freeze too, slushing isn't going to hurt anything. Ron

 

[ckent323]

Craig,

Hmmmm, not pedantic but a "three-peat"..

There is 1/2" on each side between the wheel wells of the Tundra and Hawk tub....nice snug fit!

Phil

Wow, that was weird! I am not sure why my post went up three times in a row, however, my internet connection has been behaving a bit funky all day. I deleted two of the posts (at least I think I did) ;-)

 

[Wallowa]

My biggest concern would be the water pump itself, if it's cold enough, long enough to worry about water in the tank freezing that won't be the problem area. You can always recirculate water in the tank and just moving the vehicle will mix or agitate the water in the tank. Granted it's going to have to be a hard freeze too, slushing isn't going to hurt anything. Ron

I like the idea of agitating the system to forestall the water from solidifying. Cycling water in and out of the hot water heater to the main water storage tank could do that and introduce hot water to the main tank..my water pump in perhaps 3" directly inside the forward left side cabinet door...with that door open it has full exposure to the heated air from the furnace and the pump is not against the outside box/tub wall.

Thanks..Ron

 

[Wandering Sagebrush]

Wow, that was weird! I am not sure why my post went up three times in a row, however, my internet connection has been behaving a bit funky all day. I deleted two of the posts (at least I think I did) ;-)

Hijack for a moment. It appears there is a thread locking issue when two members are replying at the same time. One person will hit post, and it appears that nothing happened but the record is written. If they hit post again, then a second record is written. My guess is it’s a database problem.

 

[rotti]

.....the outside shower fixtures and system drain line to the outside spigot on the rear wall of the Hawk are a major concerns.

On a week long Colorado elk hunting trip I proved the outside spigot drain is the first to go. After a night long blizzard and temps in the single digits the drain line/valve was frozen solid. Water inside the camper was okay. Not knowing what was frozen and where, I used the water pump and faucet to dump 20 some gallons of water out the sink drain.

The drain line remained frozen for the balance of the trip. Back home and thawed, I put several gallons in the tank and luckily there was apparently no damage or leaks.

Does anyone know where that drain line runs? My 2012 Hawk is more or less permanently mounted but it appears to run through the interior behind the cabinets? If so, a break there would be major mess.....In the future I will be joining the blue water jug group in winter conditions.

 

[Wallowa]

Hijack for a moment. It appears there is a thread locking issue when two members are replying at the same time. One person will hit post, and it appears that nothing happened but the record is written. If they post again, then a second record is written. My guess is it’s a database problem.

Yup..that is exactly what happened to me also...I did catch and delete second post..I just kept tapping "post"...duh!