Rookie tire and rear suspension questions

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cabinfever

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Greetings -- I've been an occasional wallflower on this forum for a while now, I always find useful stuff on here! Now I am a bit overwhelmed and thought I'd reach out for some feedback. I have a 2016 Nissan Frontier with a 2001 FWC Eagle and am looking to beef up our tires and rear suspension. FWC has recommended the Timbren SES for the rear suspension and one of three tire options, all E-rated: BFG KO2 all-terrain, Toyo Open Country (although they said these would be louder, lower mileage), and the Goodyear Wrangler. My dad has also recommended the Supersprings to me for the rear suspension.

We do a lot of highway miles since every summer we do a camping road trip between OR and WY. Also a fair amount of dirt/forest service/BLM roads and a bit of 4WD roads but limited these days now that I have a toddler. Camper is on the truck between April-ish and November-ish.

I try to go to Les Schwab when I can since they have such good warranty/customer service and lots of locations for repairs where we often travel, and they recommended their Backcountry 10-ply tire instead of the ones listed above (I guess they don't carry those other ones?)

Long story short my questions are these:
1) Does anyone have experience with the Timbren SES and/or Superspring rear suspension upgrade kits? Pros/cons of each? I am pretty sure I have decided that I want this option rather than an added leaf or air bag based on our usage.

2) Can anyone provide a comparison between the Les Schwab's Backcountry tire vs. the BFG KO2 or Toyo Wrangler?

Thanks!!!
 
Ran super springs on my 1st gen Tundra with Michelin E range MS2 tires. Very happy with performance. Now running Cooper ATP on a 3/4 ton and very happy with them. I did try BFG ATs KO2 on the 3/4 ton but didn't like them, they felt squirmy, even at 80psi. Don't know if it was sidewall flex or thread squirm but all is well with the Coopers now.Don't forget about upgrading to HD shocks
 
I used 3 sets of BFG KO A/T tires on my (now with a new owner) 2003 F-250. First set lasted 50,000 miles, second set went ~45,000. Could have gone perhaps another 5k but changed them for a new set of KO for a 6000 trip out west. For the conditions I encountered, I thought they were the best tires I had ever used. Now these were the KOs, not the new KO2.

I'm planning on going with the KO2 on my F-350 in a year or less. I like the Michelins (great fuel mileage, low noise, comfortable ride), but, off-road performance in sand and dirt is poor to nonexistent. And the Michelin performed very poorly in snow as well.

Costco will be ordering/installing a set of KO2 for me when I decide to change over.

I think most folks have mileage issues with these tires on heavier trucks due to perceived/proper inflation. When you get into the 32"+ diameter tire range, it is very important to inflate the tire for the actual load carried by that tire and/or axle.

Ever since the Firestone tire fiasco a decade ago, tire manufactures are very reluctant to publish any inflation data (if at all). And all but one (to my knowledge) defer to the vehicle manufacturer for proper tire inflation.

Fortunately, Toyo tires still offers inflation tables based on load. I've used these table for years for my BFG and Michelin tires. I have a psi for a fully loaded truck/camper (wet) for a trip and another inflation psi for a dry camper in the bed. The camper is in the bed 24/7/365. Using a Toyo tire of same size, style and load rating as the tires installed on your rig will get you close enough to make a difference IMO. Of course, proceed at your on risk and YMMV.
 
I would strongly recommend staying with an E-rated BFG or similar tire. A 10-ply carcass is simply overkill.

I also recommend staying away from Timbrens, which are overload devices that only engage once your suspension has sagged. You need a proper rear suspension that maintains a level ride. You can do this with aftermarket springs if you plan on leaving the camper mounted all the time, or with air bags such as the Firestones if you'll remove it between trips. In fact if you're going to take the camper on and off air bags are the only way to maintain proper ride and handling both empty and loaded.

Possibly the ultimate rear suspension setup for a camper would be a set of springs that levels the truck with the camper on and empty, with an additional set of air bags to fine-tune the ride and ride height.
 
Thanks for all the helpful responses! I have a few follow up questions: Beach, regarding HD shocks -- is this in addition to installing supersprings or the timbrens?


Beach said:
Ran super springs on my 1st gen Tundra with Michelin E range MS2 tires. Very happy with performance. Now running Cooper ATP on a 3/4 ton and very happy with them. I did try BFG ATs KO2 on the 3/4 ton but didn't like them, they felt squirmy, even at 80psi. Don't know if it was sidewall flex or thread squirm but all is well with the Coopers now.Don't forget about upgrading to HD shocks
Click to expand...
Note that I'm not a regular off-road driver; lot of highway miles for long road trips to see family, good amount of graded gravel roads, only a small amount of 4WD road/trail travel compared to the hwy/gravel roads.
 
JHanson said:
I would strongly recommend staying with an E-rated BFG or similar tire. A 10-ply carcass is simply overkill.

I also recommend staying away from Timbrens, which are overload devices that only engage once your suspension has sagged. You need a proper rear suspension that maintains a level ride. You can do this with aftermarket springs if you plan on leaving the camper mounted all the time, or with air bags such as the Firestones if you'll remove it between trips. In fact if you're going to take the camper on and off air bags are the only way to maintain proper ride and handling both empty and loaded.

Possibly the ultimate rear suspension setup for a camper would be a set of springs that levels the truck with the camper on and empty, with an additional set of air bags to fine-tune the ride and ride height.
Click to expand...
Here's where my tire ignorance really comes out: isn't E-rated and 10-ply the same thing?

Regarding the Timbrens, my understanding is that the air bags and timbrens do the same thing, only with the timbrens there is no air pressure to worry about maintaining.
 
cabinfever said:
Here's where my tire ignorance really comes out: isn't E-rated and 10-ply the same thing?
Click to expand...
The "ply rating" is a holdover from the old bias ply days. When they needed to hold higher air pressure to handle more weight, they would literally go up from 2 plies to 4 plies to 6 plies, etc.

With radial tires, they ALL have two ply sidewalls, with the exception of certain off-road tires that add a third ply - often kevlar - for protection against sidewall cuts.

They are actually listing Load Range E as being "10 ply equivalent".
 
I bought a pair of the very first BFGs to come out with 3 ply sidewalls. They only came in the 10.50R15 size initially. I'm not even sure I want to guess how old this pic is! This was the result of the first trip out with them, a sidewall hole. I had previously banged the (2 ply sidewall) Armstrong Norseman's into that same point many times w/o a problem. Moral of all of this: There's more to sidewall puncture resistance than just sidewall plies. BTW, I saw that same point claim a sidewall on a JK going down Odessa Cyn. 3 years ago.

i-R2TZLXT-M.jpg
 
Hello cabinfever
We're running Michelin e rated came on the truck, been happy with them so far. I could see their limitations in snow, mud. If aired down might do ok in sand, have not tested, will probably try other tires when these go, just for fun.
As for the timbren product when I'm really loaded and pulling a trailer I have a fair amount of sag in the rear. When I was considering the timbren and thought of them off road, and they only do what they do as you add more load on that device. I thought that you have no ability to adjust the suspension. Maybe on the Hwy or back roads they are fine, with air bags you can soften the suspension just like you can with tires. Then air back op for pavement time. Off road you need as much suspension as possible and being soft is an asset I believe.

Russ
 
I've gone through many sets of tires on my 2005 F250, including BFG AT, Cooper AT, and Toyo MT and AT. Easily the best overall tires are my current set of Wranglers. Best combination of wear, off road traction and highway comfort. I'm at 10,000 miles and the wear is a little over 1/4 down. My previous sets of tires were all done at 20-25k. The MT's wear ridiculously fast and cut at least 1-2 mpg's. This current set of Wranglers is with a Hawk on full time. I've aired them down to 40 (normally run at 75psi) in sand and never felt like I was going to get stuck. These tires also are fine in snow and rocky terrain, but I haven't been in serious mud yet. These are the Wrangler Adventurer with Kevlar.
 
I ran Cooper AT3's for about 50,000 miles as the first set of tires when I added the camper to my truck and was pretty happy with them but wanted something a bit beefier and replaced them before required for a trip a little over a year ago with a set of Cooper ST Maxx (3 ply sidewall) lost about 1 mpg with the new tires but happy with the tread design and they perform well off road but are a bit noisy going down the freeway.
 
Cabinfever,

Timbrens definitely do not perform the same function as air bags. Timbrens only engage after the suspension has sagged, whereas air bags keep the suspension at the correct height to begin with, and can be adjusted to compensate for varying loads—most notably when you install or remove a 1,000-pound camper. Air bags are the only way to easily maintain a decent ride and handling when you are removing the camper between trips, especially when combined with adjustable shocks. (This is only necessary for the rear suspension.)

E-rated tires are indeed considered "10-ply rated" but I've found that actual ten-ply tires are far firmer, to the detriment of ride and being able to air down on dirt roads. I don't know if the Schwab tires are actually ten-ply.
 
dharte said:
These are the Wrangler Adventurer with Kevlar.
Click to expand...
dharte what is the load rating of these tires?

CougarCouple said:
As for the timbren product when I'm really loaded and pulling a trailer I have a fair amount of sag in the rear. When I was considering the timbren and thought of them off road, and they only do what they do as you add more load on that device. I thought that you have no ability to adjust the suspension. Maybe on the Hwy or back roads they are fine, with air bags you can soften the suspension just like you can with tires. Then air back op for pavement time. Off road you need as much suspension as possible and being soft is an asset I believe.
Click to expand...
Probably won't be offroading a great amount so I'm hoping that the timbrens will work for my application. With the air bags the flexibility sounds nice but I am worried about the potential for leaks and having to maintain the air pressure.

JHanson said:
E-rated tires are indeed considered "10-ply rated" but I've found that actual ten-ply tires are far firmer, to the detriment of ride and being able to air down on dirt roads. I don't know if the Schwab tires are actually ten-ply.
Click to expand...
My objective for getting a higher load rated tire is due to the heavier load (camper) and not necessarily sidewall protection for offroading. would an e-rated tire still be recommended?
 
ntsqd said:
I bought a pair of the very first BFGs to come out with 3 ply sidewalls. They only came in the 10.50R15 size initially. I'm not even sure I want to guess how old this pic is! This was the result of the first trip out with them, a sidewall hole. I had previously banged the (2 ply sidewall) Armstrong Norseman's into that same point many times w/o a problem. Moral of all of this: There's more to sidewall puncture resistance than just sidewall plies. BTW, I saw that same point claim a sidewall on a JK going down Odessa Cyn. 3 years ago.

i-R2TZLXT-M.jpg
Click to expand...
Holy crap that looks like some sort of predicament my dad would get into! Ok, now you have me more confused. How is 3-ply different than standard or e-rated (10-ply)? Is this an older rating system?
 
cabinfever said:
Holy crap that looks like some sort of predicament my dad would get into! Ok, now you have me more confused. How is 3-ply different than standard or e-rated (10-ply)? Is this an older rating system?
Click to expand...
The third ply is added to some off-road tires in an attempt to add more sidewall protection. As ntsqd pointed out, it doesn't necessarily work. In any event, it has NOTHING to do with the tire's load rating.

If you're carrying a camper on the back of your truck, you NEED load range E tires to safely handle the weight. If your off-road activities are limited to driving on beaches and forest service roads and similar, it probably doesn't matter if the tire has the third sidewall or not. That's really for the hard-core "Damn the jagged rocks and tree stumps! Full Speed Ahead!" types.
 
When you see "10 ply" or "10 Ply Rated" they're talking about in the tread of the tire, not necessarily in the sidewall.

I'd say look at that actual weight rating of the tire. I'm not convinced that Load Range E's are an absolute requirement for every truck & camper combo.
 
cabinfever said:
dharte what is the load rating of these tires?

Probably won't be offroading a great amount so I'm hoping that the timbrens will work for my application. With the air bags the flexibility sounds nice but I am worried about the potential for leaks and having to maintain the air pressure.


My objective for getting a higher load rated tire is due to the heavier load (camper) and not necessarily sidewall protection for offroading. would an e-rated tire still be recommended?
Click to expand...
In my size (275/70/18) the load index is 125 which is 3,640 pounds.
 
My objective for getting a higher load rated tire is due to the heavier load (camper) and not necessarily sidewall protection for offroading. would an e-rated tire still be recommended?
Just a fwiw, common size tire load limits at varying psi and max load for can be found in this link

https://toyo-arhxo0vh6d1oh9i0c.stackpathdns.com/media/2125/application_of_load_inflation_tables_20170203.pdf

If you are replacing the oem tires I'm going to guess they are P metric size.
IDK the particulars for your vehicle but using the links below ...

http://nissannews.com/media_storage/downloads/2016_Nissan_Frontier_King_Cab_Specs_10-15.pdf
http://nissannews.com/media_storage/downloads/2016_Nissan_Frontier_Crew_Cab_Specs_10-15.pdf


...I'll guess they are/were P265/70R16, P265/75R16 or P265/60R18.
The max load rating for each can be found in load table linked above. Note for light truck applications P metric ratings are de rated by a factor of 1.1 (divided by). Don't know if Nissan considers your vehicle a light truck or passenger vehicle but if it is the former replacing the P metric with a LT of the same size will give you a higher rating even in a C ply rating (D for the 18, used LT265/65R18). And I think a LT type tire will be more suitable than a P for hauling a camper.

As for E ply rating, IDK enough about it to say. Yes, for a 3/4, 1 ton but for a 5600,5800lb GVWR vehicle, IDK. Guess you'd have to consider any downsides.

Again guessing, if loaded you were 800lbs over GVWR say your rear axle wt would be 4000lbs or ~ 2000lbs each rear tire. [EDIT all the de rated values of the oem P sizes meet this 2K weight scenario but I understand the desire to upgrade the oem tire type and rating]. I'd gross that up some for peace of mind then use that number for a load rating as a requirement when shopping for tires.

or, you could just get an E rated ...

HTH
 
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