Single LiFePo4 Battery or Two LiFePo4 Batteries in Hawk?

What more chocolate and new skis? Neither would be good for me, but that will not stop me...but I plan to add a TV, microwave, sound system and a computer with a 5K inverter...ya, right like that could happen! :cool:

Thanks for the advice....size of my battery box and funds may be the limiter...actual now with my Honda 2200i , I have a hold card.... :D

Phil
 
I’ve seen a picture of folks moving their batteries from the rear compartment on the front dinette Hawk to under the drivers side dinette seat. That gives you room for the Victron 100/30 solar controller, the Victron DC/DC Charger and the Victron shunt. With a 100ah LiFePo4 you still have some room for storage plus the original battery compartment. Thus everything is centralized and easy to get at.
 
Wallowa said:
Yes, OEM....My '16 FWC Hawk had the 160w Zamp panel and Zamp ZS30 Controller installed...does not support Li....I have added a Zamp 170w panel and will soon go to a Victron 100/30 Controller...I did change out the Eaton Separator and installed a Blue Sea 7611 and added a Victron BMV 712 to monitor SOC.....likewise, I will also go to Li batteries soon as my AGMs are now 5 years old...

Phil
Phil,
bummer--that's what I have in our '16 Fleet--the Zamp ZS30...not comfortable with doing this electrical upgrade myself...but would be willing to pay someone to do the upgrade--maybe the local 4W dealer here in Pdx...what do you estimate the parts cost of a new Controller and other goodies for it to be Li ready? thanks...
Brad
 
Hi Phil
I’m in the think you’ll be ok with one 100ah lithium battery. How about build for two and only install one. Using your camper in the real world experience will give you your answer.
Are you also charging from your truck if so there is your safety net, till you install the second battery if needed.

Good Luck with the project.

Russ
 
scappoosebrad said:
Phil,
bummer--that's what I have in our '16 Fleet--the Zamp ZS30...not comfortable with doing this electrical upgrade myself...but would be willing to pay someone to do the upgrade--maybe the local 4W dealer here in Pdx...what do you estimate the parts cost of a new Controller and other goodies for it to be Li ready? thanks...
Brad
Brad,
Why not give Amsolar.com a call to get an estimate? They are located in Springfield and carry everything you need. I’ve bought most of my solar upgrade components from them. In addition to selling the parts, they also do the work. Might be good to get a start before they get too busy for the spring season.

I’m just up the hill from you in Helvetia.

Paul
 
A couple of comments:

1. What are the available charge profiles on your ZAMP controller? LiFePO4 is really not that picky, so one of the existing profiles may work well enough. There are also other reasons to upgrade, but it may not be a requirement.

2. Look beyond Battleborn for a replacement battery. The price of LiFePO4 cells has dropped dramatically in the last year or two (just like solar cells). Battleborn was always a bit on the pricey side, but given the market shift they have become significantly overpriced. There are already a bunch of competitors out there at about 60% the price of BB, some with more features, and I think in the next few months there will be a further drop in prices. There are also some 120 - 150Ah batteries that would likely fit in your battery compartment, meaning you would definitely only need one battery.
 
rando said:
A couple of comments:

1. What are the available charge profiles on your ZAMP controller? LiFePO4 is really not that picky, so one of the existing profiles may work well enough. There are also other reasons to upgrade, but it may not be a requirement.

2. Look beyond Battleborn for a replacement battery. The price of LiFePO4 cells has dropped dramatically in the last year or two (just like solar cells). Battleborn was always a bit on the pricey side, but given the market shift they have become significantly overpriced. There are already a bunch of competitors out there at about 60% the price of BB, some with more features, and I think in the next few months there will be a further drop in prices. There are also some 120 - 150Ah batteries that would likely fit in your battery compartment, meaning you would definitely only need one battery.
Rando....

Zamp when asked said my non-Li controller would work by using the AGM profile....but is it a case of "close but no cigar"?

What competitors to BB are of equal or superior quality? I do not have the expertise to adjudge that; I am impressed with what I have read and watched about the quality of BB. Yes, I wish BB had a 150AH Li, but they don't.

Thanks for your information.

Phil
 
Wallowa said:
Rando....

Zamp when asked said my non-Li controller would work by using the AGM profile....but is it a case of "close but no cigar"?

What competitors to BB are of equal or superior quality? I do not have the expertise to adjudge that; I am impressed with what I have read and watched about the quality of BB. Yes, I wish BB had a 150AH Li, but they don't.

Thanks for your information.

Phil

Do you have the manual for your ZAMP? If so, what are the absorption and float voltages for the AGM mode (and for any other mode it may have)? That will tell us how well it would work with an LiFePO4 battery.

I don't have any experience with Battleborn, or any other drop in lithium batteries, so I can't give a first hand recommendation here.

However, I will note that Battleborn is using Chinese cells and apparently a Chinese BMS. What they do is package the cells and BMS in a nice box. There is no real reason to expect that other companies using the same approach (but doing the packaging in China) would have much worse quality. They also do a lot of slick (albeit a bit dodgy) marketing and have US based customer service, which is why they seem to be able to command a higher price. It is up to you what this is worth, but certainly look around before pulling the trigger.
 
Rando,

Thanks for you views; always appreciated....not sure what BB does that is dodgy, but I am open to knowing.

Here is what I thought was a great review of the quality of BB construction...yes, I will shop for the best, but the metric for determining which is a superior LiFePo4 battery escapes me....this video helps, but of course few batteries get this kind of a review process and personal experiences of course vary but can form a basis for choosing one brand over the other.


Phil

Ps...Just saw this

 
PaulT said:
Brad,
Why not give Amsolar.com a call to get an estimate? They are located in Springfield and carry everything you need. I’ve bought most of my solar upgrade components from them. In addition to selling the parts, they also do the work. Might be good to get a start before they get too busy for the spring season.

I’m just up the hill from you in Helvetia.

Paul
Thanks Paul for the local vendor reference--assume that is Springfield OR...still would like clear confirmation that the Zamp controller will not "do the job" of a Li battery vs. AGM...may have to do some of my own research...but will keep watching what other members offer on this post...
Brad
p.s. yeah, the H Tavern was one of our spots before Covid...assume you are a stone's throw from the Tav.
 
scappoosebrad said:
Thanks Paul for the local vendor reference--assume that is Springfield OR...still would like clear confirmation that the Zamp controller will not "do the job" of a Li battery vs. AGM...may have to do some of my own research...but will keep watching what other members offer on this post...
Brad
p.s. yeah, the H Tavern was one of our spots before Covid...assume you are a stone's throw from the Tav.
Brad...

Don't know your needs...how much solar you have, how much battery AH you will need, how much you will be off grid and not driving frequently..but here is what I think I know: Li batteries can be charged quicker and more often than an AGM, the Zamp ZS30 that it appears you have as well as I do does not have a specific Li profile...Zamp non-Li can perhaps have a sufficient charging and float profile to support a Li battery; but not an optimal profile for the Li...how efficient that is I don't know, can it damage an Li battery, I don't know..

All that aside you will get more juice into your battery for a given amount of solar on the roof with a MPPT than with a PWM controller; or so I believe...the Victron MPPT will also support the Li charge and maintenance profile...

By-the-by...I have decided to go with a single 100AH Battle Born battery, a Victron 100/30 to replace my Zamp controller, add a DC/DC charger with 4g wiring, change out the SAE roof plug to an MC4 and put my two solar [160/170w] panels in series rather than parallel as they are now...I have a Victron 712 Smart for SOC... all this after some great input by forum members...

My LiFePo4 100AH will at a minimum give me 80-90AH of power to use; my two 75AH AGMs at best can deliver 75 AH of power and the most I have used after long off-grid stays with only the Z160w panel was perhaps 50+AH...with new panel [170w], DC/DC charger for more complete and quicker charge from truck and MPPT controller, my Li BB can be recharged quickly if needed and the SOC maintained at a higher level than previously...doubt with new panel the AH used will drop very quickly if at all.

But, hey, I could be wrong! :cool:

Phil

Ps...Two thumbs up for AMSolar
 
I live between the two taverns but haven’t been to either one in a year or so. Or much of anywhere else for that matter. This is getting very tiring. Especially missing my favorite Asian & Mexican foods. Sigh.

This would be easier to take if I thought it was more science based than ideology based.

Paul
 
Umm.. Not sure what you're talking about. The people staying in are using science. The people not wearing masks are going by ideology. Pretty simple. The facts are.. There is a disease out there that makes some people die. If you care and don't want to spread it, don't go out. That's the science.

OTOH... I work for a living, and find some of the comments here hilarious. The world is still turning. All of us who aren't retired are out in the sht every day. We're going to stores, restaurants, work. Have a sick co-worker coughing on my back. Have sick customers coming up and yelling in my face.

(Not to diminish it, but I had covid in December, and wouldn't have even known if I wasn't tested. My mother in law was sick, so we all got tested and had it. Otherwise, the three of us in my house wouldn't have known.. Had maybe 2 days of feeling lethargic, but that was it)
 
Wallowa said:
Brad...

Don't know your needs...how much solar you have, how much battery AH you will need, how much you will be off grid and not driving frequently..but here is what I think I know: Li batteries can be charged quicker and more often than an AGM, the Zamp ZS30 that it appears you have as well as I do does not have a specific Li profile...Zamp non-Li can perhaps have a sufficient charging and float profile to support a Li battery; but not an optimal profile for the Li...how efficient that is I don't know, can it damage an Li battery, I don't know..

All that aside you will get more juice into your battery for a given amount of solar on the roof with a MPPT than with a PWM controller; or so I believe...the Victron MPPT will also support the Li charge and maintenance profile...

By-the-by...I have decided to go with a single 100AH Battle Born battery, a Victron 100/30 to replace my Zamp controller, add a DC/DC charger with 4g wiring, change out the SAE roof plug to an MC4 and put my two solar [160/170w] panels in series rather than parallel as they are now...I have a Victron 712 Smart for SOC... all this after some great input by forum members...

My LiFePo4 100AH will at a minimum give me 80-90AH of power to use; my two 75AH AGMs at best can deliver 75 AH of power and the most I have used after long off-grid stays with only the Z160w panel was perhaps 50+AH...with new panel [170w], DC/DC charger for more complete and quicker charge from truck and MPPT controller, my Li BB can be recharged quickly if needed and the SOC maintained at a higher level than previously...doubt with new panel the AH used will drop very quickly if at all.

But, hey, I could be wrong! :cool:

Phil

Ps...Two thumbs up for AMSolar?


Phil,
thanks for your info...some of it I understand, some of it I don't... still sounds like some "unknowns" about the Zamp controller we got from the factory...no intent now to expand our solar panels beyond the factory installed 160 I believe...guess I need to dive in more to better understand how best to manage all the Li battery advantages...again "what controller options are available to replace my 2 6volt AGMs with 1 12 v Li battery and will the Zamp controller work or not?" Am trying to navigate how to minimally upgrade yet enjoy the added capacity of the Li 12 volt if/when a replacement is needed" ... yeah, into my own planning process...wonder if a call to AM Solar might help me better understand the options? thanks again for your comments.
Brad
 
If you guys can post the specs that are available on your ZAMP charge controller, we can tell you if it will work. The numbers should be in the specifications table in the owners manual. There is a pretty good chance your existing controller will work.

If there is a 'GEL' battery type, it will probably work, but we need the specs to really know.
 
If you guys can post the specs that are available on your ZAMP charge controller, we can tell you if it will work. The numbers should be in the specifications table in the owners manual. There is a pretty good chance your existing controller will work.

If there is a 'GEL' battery type, it will probably work, but we need the specs to really know.

==============================================================================
Rando,

Help me with this...Zamp controllers we have are PWMs; Victron is MPPT Controller....forgetting specs/profile; is there a measurable advantage when using the MPPT and not a PWM? Why? And 'how much'? I am asking about WH from panels and WH into the battery for panels in parallel and in series.

All this is vague to me.

Thanks...Phil

PS...Just found a reference article....but for our FWC systems does all this make a PWM or MMPT the most effective at capturing solar energy and keeping the most power going to the batteries...thanks.

https://cleanenergyprojectnv.org/pwm-vs-mppt/
 
Yes there is a measurable advantage to MPPT over PWM. There is no simple answer on how big the advantage is - it is highly dependent on the specifics of your panels, the environment your usage and batteries. The range is around 10 - 35% more power from MPPT over PWM.

The explanation is complicated. With a PWM charge controller, the battery sets the voltage and you get what every current your panel can provide. So in the example we discussed earlier of two panels with a 15A Imp and Vmp of 21V, under ideal circumstances you will get 15A * 14V = 210W through a PWM controller. With MPPT, the panel voltage is decoupled from the battery voltage and the controller will try and find the combination of Amp and Volts where the panel produces the most power, called the Maximum Power Point Tracking (thus MPPT). In the above example an MPPT could run the panel at 15A and 21V (315W) which it would convert to 22.5A at 14V for the battery. This example is under 'ideal conditions' and in the real world it neither the total power, or the difference will be that high.

In your case, where you are willing (excited?) to upgrade and do the work, an upgrade to a Victron MPPT controller would be worth it.

For Brad, who would prefer to use his existing equipment, chances are he doesn't need to upgrade. On that front, I did find the manual for the current ZAMP 30A, and the only difference between the LiFePO4 setting and AGM setting is the float voltage (13.4V vs 13.6V). Assuming to older ZAMP has the same AGM settings as the new one, then there is really no significant issue with using the AGM setting with LiFePO4. Lithium doesn't need to be float charged (hence the lower float voltage) so if you were to turn the solar charger off when the camper is not being used, the end result would be about the same.
 
rando said:
Yes there is a measurable advantage to MPPT over PWM. There is no simple answer on how big the advantage is - it is highly dependent on the specifics of your panels, the environment your usage and batteries. The range is around 10 - 35% more power from MPPT over PWM.

The explanation is complicated. With a PWM charge controller, the battery sets the voltage and you get what every current your panel can provide. So in the example we discussed earlier of two panels with a 15A Imp and Vmp of 21V, under ideal circumstances you will get 15A * 14V = 210W through a PWM controller. With MPPT, the panel voltage is decoupled from the battery voltage and the controller will try and find the combination of Amp and Volts where the panel produces the most power, called the Maximum Power Point Tracking (thus MPPT). In the above example an MPPT could run the panel at 15A and 21V (315W) which it would convert to 22.5A at 14V for the battery. This example is under 'ideal conditions' and in the real world it neither the total power, or the difference will be that high.

In your case, where you are willing (excited?) to upgrade and do the work, an upgrade to a Victron MPPT controller would be worth it.

For Brad, who would prefer to use his existing equipment, chances are he doesn't need to upgrade. On that front, I did find the manual for the current ZAMP 30A, and the only difference between the LiFePO4 setting and AGM setting is the float voltage (13.4V vs 13.6V). Assuming to older ZAMP has the same AGM settings as the new one, then there is really no significant issue with using the AGM setting with LiFePO4. Lithium doesn't need to be float charged (hence the lower float voltage) so if you were to turn the solar charger off when the camper is not being used, the end result would be about the same.
Rando...
specs page says:
2-6: Absorption charging voltage @ 25C
--LTO type battery: 14.0 / +/-0.2
--Gel type battery: 14.1// +/-0.2
--LiFePO4 battery: 14.4// "
--AGM type battery (default setting): 14.4 // +/- 0.2
--WET type battery: 14.7// "
--Calcium type battery: 14.9 // "


In the "Features" page, the manual says: "Advanced MCU control pulse width modulated (PWM) technology, igh efficiency operation. Target for LiFePO4, LTO, Gel, AGM, Conventional lead-acid(WET) and Calcium Batteries"

So it would appear that the factory Zamp controller in our Fleet would work...the manual also gives instructions on how to "reset" for the type of battery installed (again defaults to AGM)...looks pretty simple...

Happy to pass on any more info I might have missed from the Specs or manual...

What do you think? looks like the Zamp can work?

Brad
 
If those are the specs for your controller then to looks like it will explicitly support LiFePO4 -just change the battery type to LiFePO4.
However there is an older version of the same controller, that does not have an LiFePO4 mode (which is the one Wallowa has). If it turns out you have the older model, then either the AGM or GEL setting will work for an LiFePO4 battery. The most important thing is NOT to use the WET or CALCIUM settings, any of the other settings will be OK.
 
scappoosebrad said:
Rando...
specs page says:
2-6: Absorption charging voltage @ 25C
--LTO type battery: 14.0 / +/-0.2
--Gel type battery: 14.1// +/-0.2
--LiFePO4 battery: 14.4// "
--AGM type battery (default setting): 14.4 // +/- 0.2
--WET type battery: 14.7// "
--Calcium type battery: 14.9 // "


In the "Features" page, the manual says: "Advanced MCU control pulse width modulated (PWM) technology, igh efficiency operation. Target for LiFePO4, LTO, Gel, AGM, Conventional lead-acid(WET) and Calcium Batteries"

So it would appear that the factory Zamp controller in our Fleet would work...the manual also gives instructions on how to "reset" for the type of battery installed (again defaults to AGM)...looks pretty simple...

Happy to pass on any more info I might have missed from the Specs or manual...

What do you think? looks like the Zamp can work?

Brad
Brad,

Rando gave a really good description on what controllers are capable of what...and what their relative efficiency is at gleaning power.

Here is the deal...you have a '16 Fleet, right? I have a '16 Hawk...our Zamp ZS30 controllers should be identical...

The Specs above I also have in a copy of a Zamp controller manual but they are not for my vintage ['16] Zamp controller...I have the '16 version of the manual and LiFePo4 or LTO are not mentioned....

Simple way to find out what battery types your controller is programed for....push the button "Battery Type" on the face of your controller and it will show you what battery types it is programed for...

Either way like Rando said your controller will handle LiFePo4 with an AGM profile...I assume that the LiFePo4 specific profile would be more accurate in matching the Li specs but I guess the difference is not a significant issue..

Phil
 

New posts - WTW

Back
Top Bottom