Sub-zero Cold Cold Highway Travel

Okay, I have done a little investigation now.

Bad News,... there does not appear to be any way to isolate (valve off) the shower from the balance of the system. There just isn't enough room between supply tees without also cutting the flow to the sink HC supply. It is also down hill from that intersection.

Good news,.. It appears to me?? If you, 1) shut down the water pump; 2) shut off the hot water heater; 3) open hot and cold sink faucet; 4) attach outside shower nozzle, open HC valve and let hang down; 5) open the in line valve that you open when filling the tank,.... Then all of the water in the system drains back into the tank (IF YOUR TANK IS EMPTY ENOUGH TO RECEIVE IT!). Then, 6) start and stop the water pump a couple of short burst to free any water from the impeller. All valves stay open while traveling...

Granted this is not a perfect winterization, but along with warming the interior during transit, it should remove solid pockets of water that would expand and break anything. You also don't want the pump and in particular the impeller area to have frozen chunks of ice in it at restart either, thus the need for heat under way.

This is easy enough to do at the start of a day of travel and then once you get to camp just start pumping, bleeding air and heating water. This leaves the tank drain valve..... I am going to look at hollowing out a rigid foam cover to Velcro over that, and maybe with room for a chemical toe warmer. Chemical warmers could also be placed along with some insulation inside the external shower door. These two simple procedures may negate the need for draining, but I'm a belt and suspenders kind of guy. With a little more experience, I might change that.

I'm inviting other opinions and reinforcement if you think I have it right.? (Hopefully based on experience).
 
It would worry me that you are not draining the 6 gallons of water inside the hot water heater by that method?
 
Pvstoy, it appears as though it does....? This is also why I say there needs to be sufficient room in the main tank to receive the drain down. When you open the valve and everything starts running backwards two things seem to happen. 1) more volume of water than is in the line passes. (A half tank will read 3/4 when done); and 2). The return line gets very warm.
 
Kispiox said:
Pvstoy, it appears as though it does....? This is also why I say there needs to be sufficient room in the main tank to receive the drain down. When you open the valve and everything starts running backwards two things seem to happen. 1) more volume of water than is in the line passes. (A half tank will read 3/4 when done); and 2). The return line gets very warm.
Click to expand...
My hot water system has a check valve at the inlet which would prevent draining. I'm not sure if they are still building them that way.
 
Now that I remember that the early models with the hot water heater did not have a check valve and there was a problem I can't remember. Then they installed a check valve to cure the issue.
 
They must have put an old HW heater in my new camper then. This camper is only about 6 months old. I tried it again after your first reply to make certain I was not on drugs and sure enough it is all trickling down. Have you guys done a lab experiment or just assuming that it won't?
 
Acknowledged, not a manly thing to do, but I got out the instructions..... No mention of a check valve, but no mention of being able to back drain either. It does say that after winterizing / draining by their method, there is about two quarts of h2o left in the tank that poses no problem if frozen. Must say, that concerns me anyhow, but they should know.

I can't do it today but I am going to do a test. First, I am going to back drain the way that I think is going back into the main tank. Second, then I'm going to drain by the external plug per the directions, and see how much water is extracted.

I also, think that I have found some very small T valves that can replace the Ts for the hot and cold supply to the exterior shower. If they fit I can first drain then close that off during cold season. Just need to remove some pots and pans to get to them.
 
As one who lives in a cold climate, I decided to weigh in even though I don't have any plumbing in my camper. I would winterize and use water jugs and the stove for heating water if necessary for cold weather camping. The effort to drain and refill the system every day seems too involved and complicated to me. Dealing with frozen plumbing is just not fun and holds the potential to create unnecessary problems. Of course, we camp without plumbing even in warm weather so my comments may not be relevant.
 
Takesiteasy,.. Thank you for weighing in. This whole business is different strokes and folks. What I am trying to do is enjoy the amenities with a minimum amount of effort and also without breaking anything. At some point better to leave the camper and truck in a heated garage and catch a flight to CABO to fish. That sounds like more fun than wrestling with either filling water bottles or draining heaters in sub zero conditions. That said, it was never my intention here to drain anything, and still isn't. I just wanted to leave the heater on while driving and isolate to winterize the two external plumbing features that might freeze, I.e. Shower and main tank drain valve. I just stumbled on how easy it is to drain everything,... Actually less time than filling a jug..... I think? Not confirmed yet. Will advise.

Anyway, call it a curse. I need to know how and why stuff works. Always have.

Craig333... Thanks, interesting amenity.
 
Kispiox said:
...At some point better to leave the camper and truck in a heated garage and catch a flight to CABO to fish. That sounds like more fun than wrestling with either filling water bottles or draining heaters in sub zero conditions. ...

...Anyway, call it a curse. I need to know how and why stuff works. Always have. ...
Click to expand...
Agreed, although I don't have a heated garage... :)
 
Okay, all water is draining back into the main tank,.... Every bit! Without attaching the shower it only takes a fraction of a second to flip valves and switches per the earlier stated procedure to get under way. It just gradually drains down on its own for about 15 minutes with no further action required. But keep in mind that you must have room in the main tank for the 6g in the HW heater tank. If not, it won't drain down. BTW, that water would warm the main tank water too. Once you arrive at the end of the day to set up, close the valve and start the pump it takes a while to charge the system (fill the HW tank and sink lines) and the faucet needs to be initially open to both H and C until some cold water shows then turned to H until the tank and line are also charged. Close the faucet and the demand pump stops. Switch on the hot water.

There would be some added impeller wear if you did this often. Maybe my system is different than yours? Another issue may be the effect of heated water on the down stream lines and valve? The pump is up stream, so no effect there. Maybe my check valve is not functioning properly? I am going to inquire about these things after I do some fishing.. If interested crack the valve that you open to fill your tank and open both H and C on the sink faucet,.. If you hear water, the above is happening.... HAPPY NEW YEAR!
 
I never would have guessed the water heater would drain back on its own....is your hot water heater tank entirely ABOVE your water storage tank? I don't think you said what model camper you have. The bottom of the hot water heater tank in my Grandby sits BELOW the top of the water storage tank, so I don't think mine would drain back (unless maybe when the storage tank is empty?).

I believe my Grandby has 2 checkvalves. One is on the "utility" water hook-up line - for when you "hook-up" to a water supply at an RV park for an extended stay or something. This would not come into play for this thread topic. The other checkvalve is built into the electrical RV Sureflo water pump. This is pretty standard for these RV pumps to prevent contamination of your fresh water tank. Depending on what specific pump you have, you could find out if it is supposed to have an internal check valve. No other check valves are needed, but I'm not up on the new models.

FOR ME, I'm not sure I would want to back-siphon from the plumbing and hot water tank into my fresh water tank. I'm saying this only from the standpoint of possible contamination to the fresh water tank which is somewhat difficult to clean and disinfect. I drain and flush my hot water tank annually, and I know how much crud that thing generates. Then again, you might get by with it for years with no problems. just food for thought........and HAPPY NEW YEAR!
 
I'm a new owner of a Hawk, but was told at the Factory last week when I picked mine up that the HWH will drain back to the fresh water holding tank by opening the valve directly below the water pump. I've mentally traced the water lines and it looks like this is how it's plumbed. Refer to pages 13 and 14 in the owner's manual.

http://www.fourwheelcampers.com/FWCownersmanual08.10.2011.pdf

If I'm wrong hopefully someone will chime in and let us know.
 
AK Nomad,.. I have a Hawk on an 11-F-250-6.7D. The tank is definitely higher. Yea, I too thought about crud being a problem. Good point, and good reason to not do it as a standard practice. Which by the way was never my intent. I would actually rather have the heated water stored in that tank. That along with the cabin heat on and the internal door open should keep the plumbing lines cozy. I am going to focus on isolating and winterizing the shower and main tank drain as previously mentioned and then call it a day. If ever faced with some extra extreme conditions the back drain may be a good back pocket trick.

As far as contamination, I don't see any problem there. The hot water is potable, but yes heaters generate crud that could foul the main tank drain. As an on going practice during extended use, I do however drain a a quart of water or so from the main tank every once in a while. Stuff settles out of any system. Best to not let it accumulate.

BWH4X4, yes, I too saw that note but didn't think it included HW storage. There I go thinking again.... In fact, I wish it didn't. Maybe an additional valve would cure that? Maybe a small sediment bowl too? NOW WERE TALKIN!!!
 
Thought I'd take a pict for inquiring minds and my own clarification too.

You can see the pipe coming out of the rear of the HWT and then it comes to a "T". If the valve to the right of the "T" is closed as in the pict the water stops there and doesn't flow anymore. If you open the valve it allows it to flow back into the fresh water tank. The corrugated hose you see is the fresh water tank fill hose that goes to the exterior fill port. As you can see they are both routed downward toward the freshwater tank. I'm still thinking that when this valve is opened it allows the HWT to drain back into the fresh water tank.

2013-12-30+11.18.49.jpg
 
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