Three new National Monuments in California

Hey, let's not nit pick here! No-read I what I said again. Each NM is different-some get transferred to NPS, but usually who ever managed the Public Land before designation continues to manage the monument! And it is usually better if some one like the BLM, NWS or USFS retains management because they operate on different mandates and missions than NPS (sometimes NPS however, may be the only way to go). I agree it can be confusing-look at Alaska- you can have many different management designations all in one general area and next to each other, but that's how politics work.

That nasty word "politics" is why you need to be involved. A while back I made this comment on a similar type thread- " I don't know how many public meetings I went too that no one except the main user/interest groups (timber/ranching, environmental, etc.,) showed up, and yes their politics could become the public interest. We wanted other comments-that's what the management process calls for and we loved it when someone other the the usual suspects showed up-so show up, us old feds were bound by the rules, so show up and be a part of the process so we can keep WTWing out there :D . Maybe should have said each "NEW" NM is-----because most of the older NM were managed by the NPS-sorry 'bout that!

Smoke
 
Smoke, I was not trying to "nit pick", sorry if it come across that way.

I simply did not (do not) understand given my "BIL's" various positions at NMs over the decades. I can't recall visiting a NM that had staff (even a single staff person) that wasn't NPS affililated. Yet, I will defer to your statement since I do not know NM staffing criteria in the least.
 
Advmoto

Let me explain it this way and try to do it without telling the history of how and why the public lands are managed. Starting late century (1800's) the NPS was formed and given a mandate from congress to manage special areas like National Parks, special areas and later on, areas designated under the Antiquities Act of 1906. In the late 1960' and 70's, Congress started passing laws to inventory, protect and manage the Public Lands and both authorized and gave the President the money to do it. A whole bunch of laws were passed and a bunch of people where hired (including me and a bunch of others) to implement the new laws. Up until this time, most public lands (except for those special areas managed by the NPS, FWS(wildlife refuges), USFS ( TR's timbered areas), the military and Bureau of Rec and some other organizations) were up for sale,mining, leasing or grazing or for other special uses. Congress decided that this left over land-our public lands- was worth something after all and created the BLM from the old grazing service and the government mapping folks to manage it and not dispose of it.

Up until this time, there were no laws that allowed organizations like the BLM/others to manage these special areas-including NM's; there are now and over the years all these required inventories identified all sorts of resources that now needed to be managed. That is how parts of Death Valley were transferred from BLM to NPS to become a park, and lot's of other special areas were identified but the management was retained by the BLM/FS or other land management organizations and not the NPS when it made management sense. To be truthful, BLM never got over all its' best lands in Alaska/death Valley being given to the NPS/FWS and demanded a chance to manage some of these special places especially after we spent all the time and resources inventorying and finding them in the first place :p ! So your BIL was right--- until the laws were changed NPS did most of the special management, now other organizations can and do manage these special places. That help?

Smoke

.
 
I'm of the opinion Uncle Sam does a pretty good job considering all the forces that are pulling him in opposite directions. Personally, I'm thankful for all they do.
 
Wandering Sagebrush said:
I'm of the opinion Uncle Sam does a pretty good job considering all the forces that are pulling him in opposite directions. Personally, I'm thankful for all they do.
Click to expand...
I'm with you, Sage. And it's worth remembering that the "feds" are not faceless people in DC. They are our friends and neighbors who have to deal with many people with different agendas. It's also worth remembering that many policies on existing public lands are rooted more in the scientific method than in politics.

I've been to a few meetings about the Lincoln NF's forest management revision plan and was very disappointed by how few locals showed up to be part of the process. I've discovered that a lot of folks are good at complaining and not so good at contributing.
 
I'm not writing about the every day managers of our federal lands. They do a fine job day in, day out with the tools they are provided.

I'm addressing the policy, rules, and regulations they are handed by which they must manage "our" lands by their Department (DoI, DoA) heads in DC. And the fact that more federal lands have become more restrictive by type of use and user through land classification.

If the decades long trend continues, our great grandchildren will be enjoying all these tremendous sites from inside a vehicle restricted to an asphalt road.
 
Advmoto, I could be wrong, but I believe much of the policy, rules and regulations that you mention, comes from the field. From the experience and science of folks like Smokecreek and others. I certainly don't see this as an 'us' versus 'them', where the 'them' are the folks who are doing their best to manage the lands for all of us.

To some, it undoubtably seems that federal lands have become more restrictive by type of use, but my perspective is we are loving and/or using some lands to death, and restrictions are needed. Whether it's some guy like me walking across micro biotic soils, or riding my mountain bike through an area of endangered plant species, a 4wd laying down a track across an easily disturbed desert, or a rancher with too many animals on the land, we are loving and using our lands to death.

I have no heartburn about not being able to go every where I want, by any means I choose. I want our public lands to be there for my kids, grandkids and others.
 
Wandering Sagebrush said:
Advmoto, I could be wrong, but I believe much of the policy, rules and regulations that you mention, comes from the field. From the experience and science of folks like Smokecreek and others. I certainly don't see this as an 'us' versus 'them', where the 'them' are the folks who are doing their best to manage the lands for all of us.
Click to expand...
My limited experience is as a volunteer with the USFS. I can't speak to other agencies. What I have seen is that the establishment of policy is not one way top-to-bottom. There are over 60 research stations in the different USFS regions. Results from these researchers inform the policymakers. Then the policies are decided on and handed down. Sometimes these policies are regional, not national. Sometimes they are local. Restrictions have become necessary to protect the land for the future, but every national forest supervisor understands that recreation is one of the greatest goods to protect. That I am sure of.

Our New Mexico State Land Commissioner has gone on record as saying the purpose of his office is to generate revenue for education from state owned land. It is not to keep state lands available for public use. In other words, state lands are not public lands unless he gives his blessing, and he can take it away, if mining or fossil fuel development will bring in more revenue. If I want to continue to have access to public lands, I'll go with federal protection every time.
 
The local managers have some discretion on how policies are implemented. Enforce the rules vigorously or not at all it depends on the local manager and his/her employees. You never know if the person is a hard core environmentalist for laissez faire let em do whatever type. Generally you get somewhere inbetween. Only thing that bothers me is when you get used to one style of management and suddenly someone is reassigned and the new crew changes everything. But that happens everywhere, on regular Forest Service Lands, BLM lands etc, not just NP and NM lands.

One good thing about the lack of user input is it gives those of us who do speak that much more influence. I've attended a few meetings, written a few letters but its so much easier to just whine on the boards. Excuse me while I go write a letter!
 
Ladies and Gentlemen...

Please do not misunderstand me. I am not trying to portray a "them v us" or any other type of scenario.

The vast majority of folks on WTW live out West. You have an abundance of open spaces managed by a multitude of state and federal agencies. More than 50% of the land mass out west is "public lands". The east pales in comparison most notably due to land grants and private ownership dating back to when England ruled the colonies. The Founders ensured individual land rights and property ownership were protected post-revolution and independence.

I concede policy implemented by DoI and NPS for managed public lands is likely formulated at the regional if not site level.

However, rules and regulations for DoI/NPS most certainly come from D.C.. Perhaps with opinion from local and regional levels, but promulgated by D.C. none-the-less.

Specifically, here are the foundations for NPS policies, rules and regulations.

And here is a complete list of NPS managed public lands and assets.

My only point in this entire thread is the trend of restricting use/users of public lands is on the increase. Not the opposite.

I'm all for "protecting" acreage deemed worthy of such classification. But, to set aside tens of thousands of acres out west through reclassification enabling restrictions through "historic and scientific interests" which can barely be justified will eventually result in our western lands looking like our eastern public lands. Restricted use, restricted travel and virtually no camping outside established/managed camp grounds.

I am so envious of all you folks who live out west and post here recalling your adventures. To drive and camp at a site and not have another soul in sight is something folks in the east can only dream about or visit out west. To appreciate what you guys have out west, visit the east for an extended adventure. Your idea of an eastern adventure will be drastically different from your western adventure, not simply due to vistas or lack thereof, but, due to restrictions.

Reclassification of public lands to NMs will in most, if not all, cases, lead to future use/user restrictions.

Sadly, you do not realize what you had and how much you enjoyed IT, until you no longer have IT.
 
"My only point is to emphasize that embracing reclassification of public lands will in most cases, lead to future use/user restrictions."

From my perspective, those restrictions aren't always a bad thing. They may limit me in how and when I can access public lands, but if it protects the lands for future generations, that's ok with me.

If I remember correctly, you're retired now. Come on out and spend more time with us.
 
There are movements in the west to transfer federal lands to state control which will lead to more posted signs, more mining, drilling and grazing on those lands and less access. I prefer federal control of public lands and I do embrace reclassification to NM status. This helps protect those areas from state land grabs. One main reason the things are so different in the east is that most of the east is private and there are a lot more people to misuse what public land there is.
 
Wandering Sagebrush said:
From my perspective, those restrictions aren't always a bad thing. They may limit me in how and when I can access public lands, but if it protects the lands for future generations, that's ok with me.
Click to expand...
I agree to a certain extent Sage!

But is it "fair" to restrict responsible users because of a few who are not good stewards of public land?

Further, is it fair to exclude users who don't fit into OUR category (slide-in truck campers) simply because they travel/camp differently? I'm thinking of dual sport motorcycle riders and horseback riders. Generally, motorcycle and ATV riders are the first group of users to be restricted or prohibited in a up-classification of public land.

One has to look no further than our most popular NPs for ultimate restrictions. Are these restrictions needed? Most likely so because of irresponsible users. But then, where does that leave the responsible user?

I spent about 12 weeks on 2 separate trips out west last summer. Made it to OX-West in May and the BMW MOA Rally in Billings in late July.

I should be in Baja right now, but, my flexible plan became too flexible and I'm still home. I will be taking the motorcycle to the AZ this April for a month long camping/riding trip.
 
Stalking Light said:
There are movements in the west to transfer federal lands to state control which will lead to more posted signs, more mining, drilling and grazing on those lands and less access. I prefer federal control of public lands and I do embrace reclassification to NM status. This helps protect those areas from state land grabs. One main reason the things are so different in the east is that most of the east is private and there are a lot more people to misuse what public land there is.
Click to expand...
SL...

I think you are referring to Utah's plan.

Utah considered suing the federal government to have fed lands transferred to the state. But constitutional lawyers/experts seem to have convinced the Utah delegation that this was a lost cause due to settled law and the Constitution itself. No lawsuit has been filed to date.

Utah's effort is not going to happen.


I totally agree on eastern users/abusers!
 
Indeed...much has happened in the last 10 months.

Many of the other states were watching for Utah to file a lawsuit and thus join the litigation.

yet, even a constitutional law expert at the Utah School of Law felt the state's legal argument for the lawsuit was flawed and doomed to fail..

This isn't anything new, recall the failed Sagebrush Rebellion of the 1970/80s?
 
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