Winter Camping Advice

[FreezingMan]

FM,

Great job of insulating! Very comprehensive and professionally completed. Please list the type and sizes of insulation you used and did you bolt all of them to camper?

I have strips currently 'velcroed' using 3" foam above the Tundra rails on the exposed vertical sides [4"] of the Hawk and above the rail [to bottom of window] behind the cab...after seeing what you have done and awaiting your evaluation...I may well remove the Hawk and velcro on insulation on the same surfaces you have...since my existing insulation will stay in place [no room [3/4"] between Hawk side wall and bed rail] and I can remove these pieces I will just add new sections...we have a really good outdoor carpet material already inside on the floor but under the Hawk and between the ribs is another big time heat loss area...

Again thanks for the outstanding photos and ideas...appreciated.

Phil

Ps...How did you get to the pipe coming into and out of the storage tank?

I used polyiso (1" thick, R6) in all locations except for the front piece. For the front I used EPS (1.5" thick). The front piece of insulation is held in place by compression between the truck box and camper. The other pieces are screwed into the camper with #8 1 1/4" screws and a large washer. Each of piece of insulation is held in place with two fasteners. The fasteners only go into the wood portion of the camper. I was thinking this was a pretty easy way to install and remove the insulation. As an improvement I'm thinking of putting duct tape around the edges of the front piece. I think this will help with the dead air space in case the insulation is not fully flush with the camper.

 

[FreezingMan]

FM,

Great job of insulating! Very comprehensive and professionally completed. Please list the type and sizes of insulation you used and did you bolt all of them to camper?

I have strips currently 'velcroed' using 3" foam above the Tundra rails on the exposed vertical sides [4"] of the Hawk and above the rail [to bottom of window] behind the cab...after seeing what you have done and awaiting your evaluation...I may well remove the Hawk and velcro on insulation on the same surfaces you have...since my existing insulation will stay in place [no room [3/4"] between Hawk side wall and bed rail] and I can remove these pieces I will just add new sections...we have a really good outdoor carpet material already inside on the floor but under the Hawk and between the ribs is another big time heat loss area...

Again thanks for the outstanding photos and ideas...appreciated.

Phil

Ps...How did you get to the pipe coming into and out of the storage tank?

For the Fleet model you get to the water tank by pulling the cover off underneath the dinette. The tank is right below the front window. There's a fair number of screws that need to come off. Sorry I missed the ps question.

 

[WestCoast]

Spent the first real snowy nights in the camper this last week! I am so impressed! It took some doing, but I'm getting my snow removal system dialed. I will post once I get it all together but for now, it's fantastic!


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[Wallowa]

ImageUploadedByWander The West1479778145.105974.jpg

Spent the first real snowy nights in the camper this last week! I am so impressed! It took some doing, but I'm getting my snow removal system dialed. I will post once I get it all together but for now, it's fantastic!


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OK that officially ticks me off! Where the heck is that much snow!

Phil

 

[WestCoast]

Lol. The internet will never know...bwahahaaabwhaahaha


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[Miketeleskier]

I've not been on this forum very much but I have skied out of a Grandby for 23 years. Over that time I've developed a system for dealing with snow and cold.

First, never try to raise or lower the top with snow on it. The snow weighs more than you think and can bend the roof when the end hits the camper body. I put a pocket into my lift boards on the inside of the roof that fits the end of a camper jack and I use the jack to raise and lower the roof when it's got snow or a boat on top. I've also put a 1x1 ash stringer across the top next to each push board to distribute the push to almost all the rafters. The factory push board only pushes the two rafters that it is attached to. I can lower the top slowly even when burdened with snow or a boat. The camper jack stores on the floor against the longitudinal seat. I now have a minimal rack to hold it.

I made a lightweight ladder for removing snow from the top and keep it under the front of the camper between the truck cab and the bottom of the bed. In use, it rests against the camper just under the liner and I can just reach the top to clean it. I push snow off with a driveway sealer broom - one row of bristles and a long handle. When it snows a lot, I set the alarm and get up every few hours to sweep off that heavy California snow. Not a very restful night!

To solidify the top and to mollify my own paranoia, I put six 1x2 fir strips between the camper body and the roof for support. They are just long enough to wedge between the top of the camper body and the bottom of the top.

I have three deep cycle batteries, one under the seat, and two in the truck bed forwards of the wheel wells. The wheel well batteries are in ensolite "cozies" taped together with duct tape. When I get back to the truck after skiing, I run the truck for a few minutes to heat the batteries up (charging inefficiencies show up as heat during charging). After that, the draw on the batteries keeps them somewhat warm. Note that a lead-acid battery at 20 degrees has about 20% of its 70 degree capacity and the furnace draws about 5 amps when running. Warmer batteries can deliver that 5 amps much longer.

I use the arctic kit and stuff towels between the kit and each side of the scissors to seal them. Sometimes, I drape a blanket over the door end of the camper to keep it warmer.

I have a quilted cover that Velcros to the inside of the roof to cover the magic vent when I'm not cooking. You will lose a lot of heat through the thin plastic of the vent cover.

Condensation is part of the fun. When I get up in the morning, I use a dish towel to soak up the drips on the inside of the roof. Often, I have to do this a few times as the frost on the staples melts. After a couple of days with two dogs and two people, everything inside is damp and clammy. When I get home, I heat the camper with an electric heater until the corners behind the arctic kit are dry.

Water is a huge problem when it is very cold. Before bed, I fill a pan with water. In the morning, if the pump and water delivery lines have frozen, I boil the water and put it in a bottle. Then, I put the hot bottle in the cabinet with the water pump and pack in a few bath towels until the water line melts. Skiing at a place with water available like the southwest entrance at Lassen Park, I don't fill the tank at all and work from liter bottles I fill in the visitor's center.

Newer campers with pressurized water systems will offer their own issues that you'll have to deal with.

I carry a Honda EU 1000i generator and a can of starting ether. When it's 10 outside, you can't afford to run out of batteries.

I turn off the heater at night unless I have a hookup and sleep in a very warm bag with a down comforter over it. If I have a hookup, I use a 1700watt electric space heater and run it 24-7.

While you won't freeze in your 4 wheel camper, don't expect to be warm and cozy. Wear lots of layers and run the heater occasionally. Antifreeze helps too. I prefer fruit brandy.

Edit: I forgot to mention that I put a bubble wrap insulation sheet over the big window on the side of the camper. It's pretty useless otherwise. Also, I cut a piece of ensolite and put that against the window at the end of the camper near the cab to insulate that window. I take it out in the warmer weather to allow the dogs to use the pass through into the truck cab.

 

[DYNOBOB]

^^ Great post ^^ Thanks!

.

 

[BWSracing]

Just a few quick things I have dealt with. First night ever in the camper with the wife and three dogs the heat would light and it was mid 20's. So we buttoned up the camper tight and snuggled up. Woke up in the morning with lots of condensation, went to light the stove and we couldn't get that to light. Opened the door to check the propane and instantly the stove lit, what we figured out is three dogs and two humans consumed enough oxygen that the match couldn't stay lit long enough to light the stove. So we now always sleep with something cracked a little bits. Also with three short haired dogs the heat is always a bit higher for them. I'm normally in shorts under a light blanket. If the dogs aren't in the trip heat is down really low and I'll through a sleeping bag on top as an extra blanket. I've not yet had an issue with water freezing bit I'm sure its a matter of time. I'm also very interested in the additional insulation you all have mentioned. Here is just a week ago, 16 degrees, 40+ mph winds and constant snow.


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[CraggyMan]

Even with the new FWC I will probably never get out of the habit developed from winter mountaineering days. I always filled up a pot with water before bed. Originally this made for quicker starts on a cold morning. This technique stayed with me over the years of car-truck camping and now I always fill the kettle and prep the stove-top espresso pot before bed. If all else fails at least you can have hot coffee and some water to work with.

This thread has got some good ideas going. We plan on being out for New Years camping in the Oregon desert. Here's a pic from my old Palomino from NY 2010-2011.

 

[longhorn1]

Just a few quick things I have dealt with. First night ever in the camper with the wife and three dogs the heat would light and it was mid 20's. So we buttoned up the camper tight and snuggled up. Woke up in the morning with lots of condensation, went to light the stove and we couldn't get that to light. Opened the door to check the propane and instantly the stove lit, what we figured out is three dogs and two humans consumed enough oxygen that the match couldn't stay lit long enough to light the stove. So we now always sleep with something cracked a little bits. Also with three short haired dogs the heat is always a bit higher for them. I'm normally in shorts under a light blanket. If the dogs aren't in the trip heat is down really low and I'll through a sleeping bag on top as an extra blanket. I've not yet had an issue with water freezing bit I'm sure its a matter of time. I'm also very interested in the additional insulation you all have mentioned. Here is just a week ago, 16 degrees, 40+ mph winds and constant snow.

ImageUploadedByWander The West1480389185.737359.jpg

ImageUploadedByWander The West1480389212.100841.jpg


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It is always good to leave a turn buckle door, window, or roof vent open at night. With 2 humans in the upper bed there is a lot of condensation when you wake up. A little airflow will cut that back some, not to mention the extra safety. jd

 

[Edgewood]

Hey Tele Mike, great to hear your great advice. I spent some time in Mikes Granby and it's like being in the cabin of a pirate ship. Warm and cozy! Might be mistaken but I remember tapestries, bookshelves and a fireplace.

 

[WestCoast]

Just thought I'd add to this conversation before it's irrelevant, as winter is starting to show signs of retreat in the valley. First, this winter has been great! SO nice to have a return to "real winter" as the last few have felt pretty anemic.
Staying in the camper has been fantastic! I am about to embark on a Powder Highway tour next week and wanted to share with the group my snow removal system that I have been using this winter.
First, I have decided to use a dedicated ladder mounted to the roof in a conduit carrier for storage. This is the ladder I chose, man what a great find! Thanks for the suggestion.
I briefly considered using a roof box but quickly decided against it. The main reason being snow removal is about REMOVING weight from the roof. So, the lightest system I could come up with was a conduit carrier made of PVC pipe. I used lightweight 6" PVC pipe, plasi-dipped black to look cool and this conduit carrier. To seal it up I used some putty tape. This prevents the ladder from getting frozen or caked up with road grime. It is easy to access from the back steps and pull out of the conduit carrier, even with the roof up.
To remove the snow I bought a snow-jo. Simple and cheap and stores along the awning side of the camper, very low profile. Getting up and down on the ladder with deep snow on the ground can be challenging in ski boots due to the soft ground, its worth it to dig down if its deeper than a foot. . I find I only have to move the ladder two times to get all of the snow off. Obviously this is easier with the roof down, but still works well with it up.
For skis, I use a ski rack to save space and wear and tear on the inside of the camper from the sharp edges of the skis.
Here a few photos to clarify all this:


Thanks for all the great ideas! Glad to have this website and community to make this silly camper dream even sillier!!!

 

[NRVhawk]

First, this winter has been great! SO nice to have a return to "real winter" as the last few have felt pretty anemic.

Go figure. Where I live (in the Appalachian mtns of southwest VA), it hasn't been much of a winter at all. Only one snowfall in January, and this February will almost certainly be the warmest on record for the area. We've had about six days hitting 70 this month, and many in the 60s. Daffodils are blooming, forsythia's in bloom, and I saw some magnolia trees with blossoms this weekend.

 

[Randonneur]

Okay-- so we just tried our new Fleet shell in Snomageddon conditions up at Mount Baker this past weekend.

We have two vents, one with a Fantastic Fan, the other just a vent. We have a furnace that we can set to 42 and the Thermal pack liner. I put Reflectix under the mattress and winter rated sleeping bags. We were plenty warm.

They had 2-3 feet of new snow over the weekend when we arrived Sunday night and we got another foot at least overnight while parked. I was glad to have the 4WD on the Tacoma as I had to back into an unplowed area that the ski area allows for overnighters. Temps were near freezing with a slight wind so it was a pretty good test of snow load. I didn't have a Sno-jo like you mentioned, so I tried the tilted roof approach-- lowering the door side of the roof which made it difficult to get in and out of the bed. The pitch of the roof in this configuration is not enough to get heavy snow to slide off so I may try coating the roof with wax or Rain-X to see if this helps. Anyone know if this helps?

The other thing I noticed is that even with the vents just barely cracked the snow blows in causing drippage when it comes in contact with the warmer camper air- very annoying. Anyone have experience with this? Ideas to make some sort of a cap to place over the FF and vent to prevent snow from blowing in? Or, just choose your poison-- condensation okay, dripping from snow not okay.

Sometime in the middle of the night, I decided that I wasn't comfortable with a building snow load on the roof (probably 9-10 inches) so I collapsed the roof and we slept in the cramped lower portion by rigging a platform using bins and benches. Not very comfortable but I felt better that the roof wouldn't collapse on us in the middle of the night. Slept well until the vent above us started pouring water down onto our bags once again.

Thanks for starting this thread-- I would also love to hear from folks with FWC pop-ups winter camping here in the Pacific Northwest where we get heavy and often wet snow loads .

 

[Randonneur]

West Coast-

Thanks for the great ideas-- I like the 6 foot ladder that can be put into a PVC pipe. It sounds like you able to reach the roof to clear the new snow with a Sno-jo. I'm only 5ft 6, though, so this may be a stretch for me.
I also noticed you have a collapsible step for the rear too-- did you get that from Camping World? Any issues with that? I think I read on another thread that some people had some issues with these.

 

[Randonneur]

WestCoast,

I am hopeful of making a transition this year, from a large outfitter wall tent with wood stove, to FWC, for an upcoming elk hunt in Colorado, at 8500 ft. Wall tents are hard to beat for comfort and warmth with a few people to share the work. ( Ex. You get warm twice with a wood stove, once chopping the wood, once burning it!)

Because snow sticks quite well to canvas, most people with this arrangement throw a blue tarp over top, and tie it down. With a pitched roof, the snow slides off. Although our campers are not built with a sloped roof, I've considered doing two things this year in preparation for a snow load.

I picked up a poly tarp (8'x11'), and plan to tie ropes on all four corners of the tarp. If there is any chance of snow, I'll throw it over top of the camper, tying it off on the pickup, and I'm thinking it might be possible to pull the tarp one direction or the other, and the snow will drop off as I go, or pull the tarp back over itself rolling the snow with it. The main thing is not dropping the roof with all the extra weight, something is sure to break, maybe even you! Might take several times before a storm passes, but it's a way to manage the the snow depth on top, just replace the tarp each time.

The second thing I was planning to do in combination with the above, is make some 6" wide braces out of plywood, that I can place midway on each side of the camper body, wedging them in place along the sideliner up to the ceiling edge, to provide additional support in the middle, not just the two ends of the camper, to reduce sagging.

Still can't allow too much snow to build, but that's the thoughts I've given to it. Maybe someone's already tried this and can respond?


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Great ideas--
Did you get a chance to try the tarp trick? This sounds interesting although a bit of a struggle in the middle of the night in a blizzard.
Did you try to make some 6" braces as well? If I understand this idea correctly, you would place them on the inside between the windows from the frame up to the roof. Do you know if the roof has a frame around the edge to catch the support?

 

[WestCoast]

Hey guys! glad to see your finding this thread useful. I am actually out as of last week due to planned ACL surgery from blowing my knee out last spring.
As for wha I do for snow removal, I use the 6'foldable ladder that goes in the conduit carrier I put on the top of the truck. I am able to reach it from the back steps easily with the top down, after the top goes up, I can just barely put it in and get it out, so I usually just stash it under the truck. The snow joe is the only way Ive found to get the snow off reliably. Its a pain in the ass that I'd rather not do in the middle of the night but then again, neither is being crushed to death by the roof load. Yes, for these classic winter PNW jet stream conditions I am quite diligent in my snow removal. A typical day may start something like this.

Get to the ski area the night before and set up,
Wake up around 7, get dressed for the day and let the dog out.
Go out, start up the generator and carefully pull the snow down from the ladder. (I try not to do this in ski boots)
Feed myself and doggo, pack up and head to ski to get 1st chair.
If it has snowed more than a foot by lunch, I have lunch in the camper and pull off more snow (in ski boots, carefully)
Come back to camper around 430 if desnowed at lunch, if not, return as ASAP after lifts stop and pull load off.
Make dinner, run generator and just before settling into bed around 800, pull snow off.
Now, if its snowing HARD overnight, (and it does) I will check on the telemetry site and if since my last snow shed its snowed more that 8" i get up and do it all again.
Its a pain in the ass to be honest. This actually has me looking at buying a bigger truck and a hard side camper. The tacoma is awesome and I love that truck but it cannot pull two sleds and have the camper on at the same time. So, after my wife finishes school, I might be liking at a new rig...

 

[Wallowa]

Wow! Great ideas and descriptive information...appreciate it...not comfortable lowering top on our Hawk with a snow load, too easy to tweak a panel or using internal braces to bolster the roof to beyond the advertised max of 1,000 lbs roof load...bracing for me is iffy since it will transfer the load to roof support or internal structures in an unpredictable fashion...those end panels are not that stout especially if lowered or stressed with a large load..the tarp suggestion is unique and I will try it if we ever get any snow out here in NE Oregon this year...ladder does not work for us,since we have no place to stow one but an etrier attached to the steps on the back wall of the Hawk works for me...

https://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en_US/big-wall-climbing/etrier-BD3900300000ALL1.html

Last question, hope I didn't missed an answer already offered for it: "How do you protect and use the plumbing in a FWC in below freezing temperatures"....I get leaving the internal doors open and FWC propane heater on, heating up the 6 gals in the hot-water heater then transferring that to the main storage tank and then keep the hot water heater on...but will all that stop any plumbing from freezing when temps are seriously low [single digits or below zero]??? Really, really do not want to drain and pressurize out all water in the system every winter and go to 5 gallon carboy water jugs if I can avoid it....hassle vs risk I guess...busting a water line or tank would not be acceptable!

Thanks for any more insights and suggestions.

Phil

 

[Randonneur]

Hey guys! glad to see your finding this thread useful. I am actually out as of last week due to planned ACL surgery from blowing my knee out last spring.
As for wha I do for snow removal, I use the 6'foldable ladder that goes in the conduit carrier I put on the top of the truck. I am able to reach it from the back steps easily with the top down, after the top goes up, I can just barely put it in and get it out, so I usually just stash it under the truck. The snow joe is the only way Ive found to get the snow off reliably. Its a pain in the ass that I'd rather not do in the middle of the night but then again, neither is being crushed to death by the roof load. Yes, for these classic winter PNW jet stream conditions I am quite diligent in my snow removal. A typical day may start something like this.

Get to the ski area the night before and set up,
Wake up around 7, get dressed for the day and let the dog out.
Go out, start up the generator and carefully pull the snow down from the ladder. (I try not to do this in ski boots)
Feed myself and doggo, pack up and head to ski to get 1st chair.
If it has snowed more than a foot by lunch, I have lunch in the camper and pull off more snow (in ski boots, carefully)
Come back to camper around 430 if desnowed at lunch, if not, return as ASAP after lifts stop and pull load off.
Make dinner, run generator and just before settling into bed around 800, pull snow off.
Now, if its snowing HARD overnight, (and it does) I will check on the telemetry site and if since my last snow shed its snowed more that 8" i get up and do it all again.
Its a pain in the ass to be honest. This actually has me looking at buying a bigger truck and a hard side camper. The tacoma is awesome and I love that truck but it cannot pull two sleds and have the camper on at the same time. So, after my wife finishes school, I might be liking at a new rig...

Thanks West Coast. You are right-- that sounds like a lot of monitoring during the day. Still trying to find the sweet spot for the truck/camper, but going out into the teeth of a PNW blizzard doesn't sound like the best use of the rig. Looking at the ladder that you suggested now. If I put a lightweight pod up on top I can throw it in there and access it while the top is down. I may try a more limited routine than you and just collapse the roof while I go out skiing. Do you know what the snow load rating is for when the top is down? FWC says 1000 lbs when the top is up which they say works out to 4-5 inches evenly distributed across the top. I know we were past that before I put the roof down and with the new struts it wasn't a problem.

 

[Wallowa]

Thanks West Coast. You are right-- that sounds like a lot of monitoring during the day. Still trying to find the sweet spot for the truck/camper, but going out into the teeth of a PNW blizzard doesn't sound like the best use of the rig. Looking at the ladder that you suggested now. If I put a lightweight pod up on top I can throw it in there and access it while the top is down. I may try a more limited routine than you and just collapse the roof while I go out skiing. Do you know what the snow load rating is for when the top is down? FWC says 1000 lbs when the top is up which they say works out to 4-5 inches evenly distributed across the top. I know we were past that before I put the roof down and with the new struts it wasn't a problem.

Great question about max load when down...and 4-5 inches of snow can weigh a lot or a little...depends on water content...out here 5" of snow is fluff and weighs very little..

Was good to hear you could lower the top with 1,000 lbs snow load...that would break my neck! I put my head against the front board to control lower the top..

Phil