Winter Camping Advice

[FreezingMan]

I had the lift assist shocks installed externally by FWC a couple of years ago. They definitely help once you get the roof up a little ways. In the beginning the shocks are such an angle they don't help. They don't interfere with Yakima box. Last summer I bought a jack from Home Depot. It's called a KargoBar. It really helps get the top up when the ski box is on.

 

[bmiracle]

Loving this topic! One thing that I have to add is for condensation I have been using this with great results! It will not help when it freezes, but these campers are so tight it sucks the water right out! I have it held to the counter to the right side of the stove with adhesive velcro. I have the bench seat and during the winter I sleep with the top down to maximize heater use. I also use the refrigerator in the winter for the opposite use. It really works well to keep a collapsible water container from freezing

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000PDUV60/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&th=1

 

[Wallowa]

Late to this party...some of my thoughts...do appreciate the exchange of ideas.

#1 Any combustion inside a FWC is toxic...including my FWC stove; always vented when using it.

#2 Using webbing to access the roof to remove snow is a great idea; I will attach mine to the upper FWC step on back of Hawk.

#3 Ladder is fine if you have the space to carry one; I don't.

#4 I added 3" insulating foam to the exposed sides of my Hawk above truck bed; '05 Tundra has 17" bed, I used Velcro.

#5 When did, if they have, FWC start using PEK plumbing? Hope my '16 Hawk has it.

#6 I would check with FWC before side loading the roof by dropping only the rear of the roof to shed snow.

#7 If temps seriously low, below zero, then I will drain my Hawk water system and use jugs.

#8 For minor low temp spikes I intend to carry the large chemical hand/boot warmers and pack around pump and pipes.

#9 I have Velcro located a temp sender inside box with water pump to monitor the temp during the night.

We just completed 18 days in Escalante area of Utah, first long trip with new Hawk; temps to 26 degrees; furnace did great!

Phil

 

[craig333]

Not sure when they started using PEX but my 2004 hawk has it.

 

[Wallowa]

Not sure when they started using PEX but my 2004 hawk has it.

Thanks Craig; I am not a good judge of components but the couplers seem to be PEKs so hopefully the pipes are also..

Gives you a little latitude with pipe expansion if the water freezes.

Phil

 

[ntsqd]

Technically the RV type heaters (as opposed to the catalytic type) have their combustion occur outside of the camper's interior, there's a thin high heat metal wall between the hot combustion gases and the air being heated. Prudent to have a CO detector, but if it goes off because of the heater it means that the heater is now junk.

 

[camper101]

SnoJoe is good, but I got a roof rake to clear snow from my roof (maybe $40 on Amazon). You can reach everything without having to get on a ladder on uneven/snowy/icy ground.

For condensation, I've toyed with ways to get fresh/dry air in and force out moist air. My latest idea (don't know if it works) is to draw air into the heater from outside and keep windows open. In other words, the cold air return draws from outside. Then you heat the air and and it pushes moisture out. Depending on what kind of heater you have, some tubing and creativity could make it possible.

 

[Wallowa]

Technically the RV type heaters (as opposed to the catalytic type) have their combustion occur outside of the camper's interior, there's a thin high heat metal wall between the hot combustion gases and the air being heated. Prudent to have a CO detector, but if it goes off because of the heater it means that the heater is now junk.

Spot on..when I referred to my "FWC stove" it was in reference to the cooking stove which does not vent combustion products outside unless you open up the FWC to outside air....as you pointed out my heating furnace and hot water heater in the Hawk both do vent to the outside of the Hawk.

Phil

 

[Wallowa]

Couple of more ideas...I previously mentioned this, it may work in a pinch...if you have a hot water heater, crank it on, heat up the 6 gals and then [makes certain the main tank is down by 6 gals], turn off the hot water heater and open the valve to drain the now hot water from the hot water heater into the main storage tank...then open both hot and cold water valves and flow the warm water through all lines with the pump [open faucets] and drain a small out the rear drain spigot. This will put 'warm' water into all the lines and valves to hold off a hard freeze...repeat the process as needed to prevent freezing in the plumbing. Only works for a set period and can't be used while driving; but if you are caught in a serious freeze and need to keep water in the system it might protect it from freezing

Otherwise drain all the water from the system.

Someone mentioned using LEDs to heat the water lines and/or main storage tank...I may be wrong but I believe that LEDs are "cold light"...no real release of heat when on...

Phil

 

[ntsqd]

I concur, I'd be surprised if the minimal heat from an LED is enough to do much of anything. Even an 1156 incandescent bulb doesn't generate that much heat, though in a dire situation a couple of them may be enough.

The way I read the post above made it sound like both the stove and the heater were all inside combustion and I was looking to separate the catalytic type (inside) from the "RV" type (outside).

Seems to me that a "Cold Plate" in the hot air flow could condense ambient moisture out of the air much like running the AC while on defrost dries that air. How to effect it and capture or drain the condensed water I don't know.

 

[camper101]

Seems to me that a "Cold Plate" in the hot air flow could condense ambient moisture out of the air much like running the AC while on defrost dries that air. How to effect it and capture or drain the condensed water I don't know.

Interesting. To throw out an idea... you could have some kind of copper (tubing?) that has outdoor air in it, then set it up to drip wherever you want.

 

[JaSAn]

. . . This will put 'warm' water into all the lines and valves to hold off a hard freeze...repeat the process as needed to prevent freezing in the plumbing. Only works for a set period and can't be used while driving; but if you are caught in a serious freeze and need to keep water in the system it might protect it from freezing

Surprisingly this doesn't work (and their doesn't seem to be any scientific consensus as to why and under which conditions). It's called the 'Mpemba effect': warm liquid freezing faster than cold.

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/General/hot_water.html

On purely personal experience: I have hot and cold copper pipes going to my kitchen sink (some Einstein decided that he could run the pipes OUTSIDE the wall insulation, in Minnesota). At about 0ºF I need heat tape around the hot water pipe to keep it from freezing, not the cold. This holds from ~ 0ºF to -20ºF; after -20 I must heat both pipes.

jim

 

[Wallowa]

Surprisingly this doesn't work (and their doesn't seem to be any scientific consensus as to why and under which conditions). It's called the 'Mpemba effect': warm liquid freezing faster than cold.

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/General/hot_water.html

On purely personal experience: I have hot and cold copper pipes going to my kitchen sink (some Einstein decided that he could run the pipes OUTSIDE the wall insulation, in Minnesota). At about 0ºF I need heat tape around the hot water pipe to keep it from freezing, not the cold. This holds from ~ 0ºF to -20ºF; after -20 I must heat both pipes.

jim

Wow...interesting article...BUT it raises many questions about the applicability to an application within a FWC water system....the lack of evaporation, non-existant dissolved gases differences, mixed convection currents and 'surrounding environment' are factors named that well might slow down the freezing process by introducing warm water into the pipes and storage tank when freezing temps are reached. Our systems are closed, evaporation and dissolved gases should be the same through out the system. No cold vs warm distinction. Convection currents will occur but to what specific affect in our mixed system? Lastly the heating of the area around the storage tank/plumbing will raise the air temperature in these areas just like our heating furnace would; slowing down the cooling of all water in the system and thus the freezing of water that in our systems will still occur at 32F..

Like you stated the science or lack there of for this effect is unknown; but some of the potential variables are named in the article and from what I see our closed system negates the influence of at least three if not four of the proposed factors. This article addresses separate containers of water while in our closed system it is essential one container that we mix warm water into colder water.

What the hell, I still feel it is worth a shot!

Phil

 

[PaulT]

Phil,

For what it's worth, periodically heating 6 gallons of water, then mixing it with the cold water tank to keep the tank temp above freezing is not like comparing the freeze time of two still containers of water starting at different temps.

Just sayin'.
I say try it.

Paul

 

[Wallowa]

Phil,

For what it's worth, periodically heating 6 gallons of water, then mixing it with the cold water tank to keep the tank temp above freezing is not like comparing the freeze time of two still containers of water starting at different temps.

Just sayin'.
I say try it.

Paul

Paul thanks...I agree...my long winded statement pointed that way...

Phil

 

[FreezingMan]

With the idea of keeping the water system inservice during the winter I installed rigid foam insulation on the outside of the shell. The insulation is only covering those parts of the shell with the exception of the floor. I also covered with complete floor with the idea it might make the dog a little more comfortable on really cold nights. I'm also installing pipe insulation right where the the water line exits the tank. That's the spot that has frozen on two of my in past winter trips.


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I'm thinking like Wallowa that the conditions in the FWC water system make the Mbemba Effect unlikely though this winter may prove me wrong. As a matter of practice I've always drained the hot water system at night for fear of the tank freezing if the tank doesn't light off. I may try recirculating some warm water through the main tank and water line in the evening with the idea of adding some heat to the insulation around the water line.

 

[Wallowa]

With the idea of keeping the water system inservice during the winter I installed rigid foam insulation on the outside of the shell. The insulation is only covering those parts of the shell with the exception of the floor. I also covered with complete floor with the idea it might make the dog a little more comfortable on really cold nights. I'm also installing pipe insulation right where the the water line exits the tank. That's the spot that has frozen on two of my in past winter trips.





I'm thinking like Wallowa that the conditions in the FWC water system make the Mbemba Effect unlikely though this winter may prove me wrong. As a matter of practice I've always drained the hot water system at night for fear of the tank freezing if the tank doesn't light off. I may try recirculating some warm water through the main tank and water line in the evening with the idea of adding some heat to the insulation around the water line.

FM,

Great job of insulating! Very comprehensive and professionally completed. Please list the type and sizes of insulation you used and did you bolt all of them to camper?

I have strips currently 'velcroed' using 3" foam above the Tundra rails on the exposed vertical sides [4"] of the Hawk and above the rail [to bottom of window] behind the cab...after seeing what you have done and awaiting your evaluation...I may well remove the Hawk and velcro on insulation on the same surfaces you have...since my existing insulation will stay in place [no room [3/4"] between Hawk side wall and bed rail] and I can remove these pieces I will just add new sections...we have a really good outdoor carpet material already inside on the floor but under the Hawk and between the ribs is another big time heat loss area...

Again thanks for the outstanding photos and ideas...appreciated.

Phil

Ps...How did you get to the pipe coming into and out of the storage tank?

 

[Bseek]

As I pack for a little winter jaunt, I realized I need to pack more books, etc. The days are mighty short and chilly, so I retreat into the camper earlier than in the summer. So you must have some form of entertainment or you will go stir crazy.

Not quite the direction of the post, but my two cents.

 

[cdbrow1]

As I pack for a little winter jaunt, I realized I need to pack more books, etc. The days are mighty short and chilly, so I retreat into the camper earlier than in the summer. So you must have some form of entertainment or you will go stir crazy.

Not quite the direction of the post, but my two cents.

My entertainment of choice is an 8 inch color Amazon Kindle. Can download books, but also download and play videos - even when out of cell phone range. Real lifesaver when Donner Pass closes with you on the wrong side of it.

 

[Edgewood]

I also use a Kindle. Around fifty bucks allows me plenty of reading materials and videos. Watching episodes of "Vikings" on a cold, snowy night just seems right.