Wow. Ranger shot just outside Moab.

I'm not against lead; just pointing out there are some options for those who aren't comfortable with it. It's not perfect or best maybe, but spray is better than nothing if push comes to shove.

------

leadsled9- does your affinity for lead have anything to do with your username? Those things make my .357 look like a toy.
 
I'm not against lead; just pointing out there are some options for those who aren't comfortable with it. It's not perfect or best maybe, but spray is better than nothing if push comes to shove.


Another option is to go unarmed, as I do.
I've been many places in the West over many years, I've gone camping mostly solo for decades -- in the middle of nowhere as well as more-visited areas, and I've NEVER run into any hassles with anyone, never felt like I needed a gun or chemical spray or a sharp stick to make myself feel safe.
Please tell me where these places are where dangerous characters abound because apparently I haven't been there yet...figure I might as well continue to avoid those places. :D

When backpacking in Denali National Park a number of years ago a grizzly bear ambled by near my camp, 200 yards away (I paced it off later) in mostly open country, so I could see it well. It was close enough to be exciting and yet not so close as to be scary. I didn't have a gun (which are banned in the Park anyway), and I didn't wish I had a gun.

For me, it's not a matter of being uncomfortable with firearms. I don't have a gun in my truck for the same reason that I don't have a parachute: I don't need one.
 
One alternative to firearms is bear spray. Much more powerful than mace in both projection and strength; it will protect you; you can't miss; and if you made a mistake you won't kill anyone and end serving time.


I've heard that you can differentiate grizzly from black bear scat by the pepper smell and bell in the grizzly scat.
 
leadsled9- does your affinity for lead have anything to do with your username? Those things make my .357 look like a toy.


My username, leadsled9 is in reference to my first truck....a 1972 Ford F100 4X4 that was an absolute pig. It had a 360 cu. in. motor and was the slowest vehicle I ever owned. My buddies nicknamed it the "lead sled" because it was so sloooooowwwww. It only had a 2 barrel carburator and the gears were way too tall. It was an absolutely reliable vehicle though. I still think fondly of it.
 
Statistically bear spray (pepper spray but usually in fog pattern with more range than that used for humans) is more effective than a gun. Some argument over why but my guess is most people aren't too terribly accurate when a bear is charging. They've done studies with humans and they found if you are within 21' a person can charge and reach you before you have a chance to use your holstered weapon. Why you see cops keep threatening people at a distance. You can only imagine the distance you need for a bear.
 
You can only imagine the distance you need for a bear.


That may be....I may or may not be able to defend myself with a firearm depending on the specific circumstancces.....but I still prefer a gun to bare hands. We are no match against a bear.

My brother has lived in Anchorage for the past 25 years....he and all the locals always go armed when they are fishing....and yes....every year some unforunate bear/people and people/people interactions occur. I feel it's best to be prepared.

I've been within spitting distance of several bears in my life....I've been false-charged by a black bear sow in Colorado because I was too close to her cubs...but she never committed to a full charge. I've never had a really bad experience with bears and am always excited to see them.
 
It's on Line 11 e....

http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473.pdf

Either way, pods, I don't have the same RIGHTS as you simply because I choose marijuana over the oxycodone I was addicted to for over 5 years (and the 5 years prior to that I was "in training" for addiction).

Check the highlighted text below. The first highlight is the penalty for merely lying on the form. The second is the penalty for possessing a weapon AND marijuana in the same locale.

FYI....

Most MMJ growers will never face Federal agents because...while cultivation of even ONE plant is illegal under Fed law, there's a cut off of 99 plants where Federal Minimum sentencing enters the picture and MOST growers will not exceed these numbers for exactly that reason. Below 99 plants it usually isn't "worth it" (not enough property to forclose on/forfiet etc. to fill the Gov't coffer) for the Fed to prosecute the case ansd it is usually a "State" matter.


Drugs & Guns

Unintended consequences of medical marijuana and federal gun laws create a conundrum.
By Seth Richardson

Steve Sarich fought his way free of a home invasion robbery, nearly killing an armed intruder in the process, by exercising his right to keep and bear arms. But Sarich no longer has that right, according to Washington state’s King County Sheriff’s Office, merely because Sarich is also a lawful medical marijuana user. Sarich, a law-abiding citizen, did nothing more than defend himself, but now he potentially faces 10 years in federal prison and a huge fine.

After police seized his firearms as evidence in the home invasion, Sarich tried to buy a shotgun and pistol to replace them, only to find the purchase denied because he failed the state’s background check. Investigators performing the background check searched the medical marijuana patient registry as a part of the check, and found Sarich’s name on the list. The gun purchase was denied because his registration as a medical marijuana user identified him as an “unlawful user” of a controlled substance because marijuana is illegal under federal law, even if not under state law.

But worse than the denial of his purchase are the federal charges he could face for falsifying the federal Form 4473, which must be filled out whenever someone purchases a firearm from a dealer. One of the questions on the form asks “are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic or any other controlled substance?” Falsifying an answer to any question on the form can bring 10 years in federal prison and a $250,000 fine. Answering that question honestly will prevent the sale from proceeding, and the dealer is prohibited from transferring the firearm to the buyer.

The authority of the federal government to infringe on the right to keep and bear arms when it comes to illegal narcotics use has been thoroughly litigated, and the courts have upheld the restrictions of 18 USC 922 regularly as applied to criminal drug addicts. But never before has this question been presented in the context of drug use that is legal under state law, but not under federal law.

For other types of drugs, like narcotics, the restriction in the law includes “unlawfully” and “addicted to” any controlled substance, which includes addictions to otherwise lawful narcotic prescribed for medical conditions. The intent is to prohibit the transfer of firearms to people who have narcotics addictions that might result in misuse of the firearm.

But marijuana is treated differently, and no addiction is required, all that is required is that you “use” it, and that the use is unlawful. According to federal authorities, there are no lawful uses for marijuana, period, so no user of marijuana can buy a gun, period. Moreover, simple possession of a firearm along with illegal drugs, including any amount of marijuana, is an automatic five year federal prison sentence.

The answer to the Form 4473 question is ambiguous when it comes to Colorado residents, because our state Constitution makes possession and use of medical marijuana lawful. Therefore, the question arises if one can answer the question truthfully by saying “no” to the question “are you an unlawful user…”

The question does not ask which law one might be violating, and the question of the supremacy of federal anti-narcotics laws over state Constitutions is an unanswered one. Certainly Sarich, if charged, should argue that he answered honestly according to his state’s laws, however unlikely he is to prevail in federal court using such a defense. But the larger question of Federalism, the power of the states to regulate commerce in firearms and medicine that does not cross state lines, remains unresolved, and one of the most important questions of our age.

Upon which law are citizens permitted to rely? In Colorado, there is an explicit statute, based on a common law principle, that a citizen may not be held criminally liable for violating a law when a state official tasked with interpreting that law says that the conduct involved does not violate the law. This reliance on the official acts of the state arguably extends to amendments to the state Constitution, which is the fundamental, organic law of the state, and should exempt people who act in obedience to it from criminal prosecution.

But this brings up questions of state sovereignty and federal power. When considering such issues, we should ask who is better suited to regulate individual conduct and medical practice? The states, or the central government?

Should a person’s fundamental, individual Supreme Court approved 2nd Amendment rights be infringed by the federal government when the legality of the conduct is expressly affirmed by a state Constitution? Should otherwise law-abiding medical marijuana patients be denied their right and their ability to be armed for self defense, or duck hunting for that matter, based on a judgment by federal bureaucrats that using marijuana is socially undesirable? Does the desire of the federal government to suppress illegal marijuana use constitute a compelling need to disarm legal medical marijuana users? Is the existing regulation the minimum necessary regulation that will achieve the legitimate governmental purpose of preventing criminal users of marijuana from obtaining firearms without unduly infringing on the gun rights of medical marijuana users acting in accord with state law? Arguably not.

More importantly, should state authorities conducting background checks for firearms purchases be permitted to access medical marijuana registries as a matter of state policy, or should the states interfere with potential federal abuses by refusing to allow either state or federal law enforcement to access medical marijuana registry information?

Would Steve Sarich have survived the initial home invasion if he had obeyed the law and disposed of his firearms as soon as he became a lawful medical marijuana user, as federal law requires? Would that have been a fair and just result?

Illegal drug use aside, these questions must be resolved quickly, because millions of law-abiding medical marijuana users nationwide are being wrongfully disarmed and subjected to the threat of federal prison merely for treating their illness according to their state’s laws.

This is yet another example of the tension between state laws and federal laws surrounding medicinal marijuana, and why it needs to be resolved authoritatively by amendment to the U.S. Constitution. Far easier, and more quickly accomplished would be a simple revision to 18 USC 922 adding a provision that use of medical marijuana in accordance with state law shall not be considered “unlawful use” as applied to federal gun control regulations. This could be proposed in Congress as the “Medical Marijuana Patient Gun Owner’s Protection Act” in a few days, and passed in a few weeks, if the will of the People demanded it.

Medical marijuana, along with mandatory health insurance purchase are likely to be the genesis of a test of Federalism and a final determination of whether the federal government is a limited government of enumerated powers and a creature of the states, or if it is a plenary general government that has arrogated all power and control to itself.

And that determination will reveal whether we still live in a Constitutional Republic or whether we now suffer under tyranny. The answer to this question will dictate the necessary response of the People, who have both the power and the authority to revoke any and all authorities they have granted to the federal government, at their will, and return to governance by consent, not by fiat.



fun stuff, huh?

mtn
 
I've got to go with MarkBC on this one. Warning - rant about to start.

Are you carrying when camping to protect yourself from whacko's out in the middle of nowhere? Then I can only assume you are even more heavily armed and wearing bullet proof vests when you are in cities, seeing as they have a higher rate of crime in proportion to rural areas even after taking into account the population difference. Say some meth head needs to rip somebody off to get some cash. Is he going to hang out in BLM land and hope some random guy in a camper comes around, are go to a suburban area and choose from 10,000 homes to break into?

Or maybe you are carrying to protect yourself from wild animals. Three people killed by bears so far in 2010. 19 since 2000. See data here
Again, you must be even more afraid in cities seeing as 176 people have been killed by dogs since 2005. more data

And if you are so concerned about self preservation, absolutely none of you must ever, ever, ever get in a car since over 30,000 people die each year in auto accidents. link But seeing as this is a forum for people that go to the outdoors, that can't be the case.

I'm a Traffic Engineer. We get calls regularly from people that want stops signs here or speed limits lowered there. We are told that people will die if we don't act quickly and it will be our fault. But we make our decisions on what devices go where based on statistics and logic, not emotions. Is it perfect? No, accidents still happen and people suffer. In much the same way, if I don't feel a need to carry to protect myself from people or animals in the city, there is statistically and logically absolutely no reason to carry when camping. And since there are always exceptions, I may suffer for that decision, but the odds are in my favor.

End of rant.
 
I was in Moab over Thanksgiving and they still have not found this guy.

That just seems ridiculously impossible to me. There is nowhere to hide out there for long. With choppers, dogs, infrared- they still can't find him? Maybe ol Ed Abbey was on to something eh?
 
Then I can only assume you are even more heavily armed and wearing bullet proof vests when you are in cities, seeing as they have a higher rate of crime in proportion to rural areas even after taking into account the population difference.



You just described my co-worker. He can not function normally in society, as he is so in fear of the world. He carries a gun everywhere but work. He is more of a danger to the world than what he is 'protecting' himself from...


Anywho -- I have a small child with me at most times and I do not carry/transport a gun as long as he is around. The potential for an 'accident' far outwieghs the risk of being a 'victim'. The stats on children and accidental shootings is sickening. My stuffs stays locked up and put away.

When I am by myself I don't have anything either as I'm not worried about it.

My gun collection sits at home collecting dust. Now if I where backpacking in real bear country (i.e. not around here) I'd consider taking something along to even the odds.
 
...
Please tell me where these places are where dangerous characters abound because apparently I haven't been there yet...figure I might as well continue to avoid those places. :D
...

Well, for now, I would advise you to stay away from the Poison Spider Mesa Trail near Dead Horse State Park.
 
Been reading some of these books http://www.gamewarden.net/terry.html

Lots of nasty people out there in the woods.
 
I've got to go with MarkBC on this one. Warning - rant about to start.

Are you carrying when camping to protect yourself from whacko's out in the middle of nowhere? Then I can only assume you are even more heavily armed and wearing bullet proof vests when you are in cities, seeing as they have a higher rate of crime in proportion to rural areas even after taking into account the population difference. Say some meth head needs to rip somebody off to get some cash. Is he going to hang out in BLM land and hope some random guy in a camper comes around, are go to a suburban area and choose from 10,000 homes to break into?

Or maybe you are carrying to protect yourself from wild animals. Three people killed by bears so far in 2010. 19 since 2000. See data here
Again, you must be even more afraid in cities seeing as 176 people have been killed by dogs since 2005. more data

And if you are so concerned about self preservation, absolutely none of you must ever, ever, ever get in a car since over 30,000 people die each year in auto accidents. link But seeing as this is a forum for people that go to the outdoors, that can't be the case.

I'm a Traffic Engineer. We get calls regularly from people that want stops signs here or speed limits lowered there. We are told that people will die if we don't act quickly and it will be our fault. But we make our decisions on what devices go where based on statistics and logic, not emotions. Is it perfect? No, accidents still happen and people suffer. In much the same way, if I don't feel a need to carry to protect myself from people or animals in the city, there is statistically and logically absolutely no reason to carry when camping. And since there are always exceptions, I may suffer for that decision, but the odds are in my favor.

End of rant.


Ted, my friend, Bravo! We teach outdoor skills and questions always comes up about safety and the dangers. As a bottom line we ask the participants to put it in perspective and do a little seat of the pants risk analysis of the amount of risk we all assume in our daily lives. You did a great job! Getting to the outdoors is the dangerous part of the trip. The further we are off the beaten path the safer we are.
 
do a little seat of the pants risk analysis of the amount of risk we all assume in our daily lives.



Yep, exactly the point I made in my first post a few days ago: People don't do risk analysis well...or at all...so they make decisions that don't make objective sense.
(And yet, despite that irrationality, we are still the dominant species on this planet...so far, anyway.
rolleyes.gif
go figure...)

And thanks to Ted for adding some actual facts-and-figures/statistics to this. :)
 
It's on Line 11 e....

http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473.pdf

Either way, pods, I don't have the same RIGHTS as you simply because I choose marijuana over the oxycodone I was addicted to for over 5 years (and the 5 years prior to that I was "in training" for addiction).



Thanks for the links. You won't hear any argument out of me against MJ or the rights of users to have guns (in case you were getting the wrong idea). It was just the first time I heard of that and wasn't aware of it, definitely something to factor in for now, unfortunately, if considering a medical MJ card.
 
Sadly,
sad.gif
most folks see "marijuana" and simply cancel out the rest of the conversation or fall into the stereotypes that are associated with the drug. Thanks for the respect and for not going "there", pods.
smile.gif


The only weapon I've ever owned was stolen in a home burglary and was never replaced. In all reality I didn't make the choice to own/not own a weapon when I got my MMJ card, I made the choice not to own when I had one of my guns fall out of my control and end up on the street almost 40 years ago.

Ultimately, chronic pain isn't a choice, so "choosing" between owning an unnecessary weapon and some semblance of relief from the pain was no choice whatsoever.
biggrin.gif


be well

mtn
 
Sadly,
sad.gif
most folks see "marijuana" and simply cancel out the rest of the conversation or fall into the stereotypes that are associated with the drug. Thanks for the respect and for not going "there", pods.
smile.gif



I advocate legalization and not just from a medical perspective (that part should be a doctor/patient issue only and the feds/pharmaceutical lobbyists need to stay the hell out).
 
i just read through all the posts and decided to put my 2 bits into the convo : )

My wife and i live in black bear country on the oregon coast. It's not to bad in our actual town, but they are around and i've looked them in the chest a time or two (HA! but never in the eyes!). I do carry bear spray when i visit the beach or go across the river in our backyard as there are cougars and also wild dogs there. Better safe than sorry and only had to use it once agaist a pack of 5 hungry dogs that did pursue/attack.

Now when we go out gold panning? My wife and I always have our spray. And they are the large canisters that put out a ~30ft fog. I can't see any animal/human coming out of that fog and being in any condition to want to do anything other than get the heck out of there as fast as they can!

I had the (now humorus) unpleasant experience of having a cansister hit the ground with the safety off. It sprayed less than a 1/2 second along the ground...I spent the next 10 minutes trying to catch my breath (i was about 5 1/2+ feet above the spray on a calm morning) burning in amazing pain. By 5 minutes into the ordeal my eyes swelled shut and remained so for about 30 minutes and my i wanted to rip my skin off. I was nearly 100% incapacitated for about 45minutes. I can gurantee if a human were hit with this level of bear spray (the stuff rangers are issued in Glacier Park and others) that they are down for the count. I would high tail it back to camp and be gone before they got there to cause any _pay back_...or that would be the plan anyway!

I'm not against _Lead_ i've had plenty of enjoyment blunking with the mossberg and 9mil : ) but i believe the spray will do a better job in an emergency in the country i visit with the things i would encounter (bear/cougar), not worried about the hippies in the PNW hills.
 
i just read through all the posts and decided to put my 2 bits into the convo : )

My wife and i live in black bear country on the oregon coast. It's not to bad in our actual town, but they are around and i've looked them in the chest a time or two (HA! but never in the eyes!). I do carry bear spray when i visit the beach or go across the river in our backyard as there are cougars and also wild dogs there. Better safe than sorry and only had to use it once agaist a pack of 5 hungry dogs that did pursue/attack.



I live in black bear and cougar country, too. Every few years a Dept. of Fish & Game guy comes to where I work to go over basic safety around wild animals. The last time, I asked him about bear spray, and he was very much a believer in it as a deterrent against black bears, cougars, and, yes, people. It may take a lot of lead and time to kill a bear, but at least with black bears, the spray deters them quickly almost always, and the bear gets to live. I carry a can with me when I go on hikes. Haven't had to use it yet, not surprisingly. But, you can always use it to spice up your beans and rice;)
 

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