1/2 ton vs 3/4 ton

[Piney]

Oh man, this HAS been beat to death, but I can't resist, cause I'm one of the guilty ones driving an 06 double cab Tundra with a pimped-out Hawk. In a weak moment, I sold our 99 3/4 ton GMC 4x4 to get the year old Tundra with only 7000 miles on it, before the FWC was even a glimmer in our eyes. I immediately installed Hellwig overload springs on the Toyota, which I have done on previous 1/2 ton trucks. We were way overloaded on our camping trips with four of us, a big dog, two kayaks on top of the shell, 20 gals. of water, two weeks of food, etc,etc., long before the glimmer. Kids are grown, now mostly two of us camping, with a new 80 lb dog and the Hawk. I took the rear seats out, makes up for the dog weight. I am very conscious of what we throw in on the longer trips. The truck does fine on the highway, but it certainly has that maxed-out feel, I won't be locking the brakes up to avoid hitting someone's cat. Cruising at 70 + mph is out of the question for my style of driving, but hitting 80 mph to briefly pass is not. On rougher dirt roads and bad washboard I'm creeping. There's a whole lotta swaying going on, (some of that is due to lowered tire pressure), and I hate it when stuff breaks away from our driveway. Highway headwinds suck, I'll back off so the 4.7 liter doesn't have to stay above 3000 rpm to push against it. Basically I'm very conservative traveling with this loaded rig, I'd like to get a quarter million miles out of the truck before upgrading, and it probably won't be another Tundra as we now know them.
Wait a minute, let me put my helmet on. When Toyota came out with the new "smokeandmirrors" Tundra body style in 2007, it sure looked all mondo and tough, but it was still just a half ton pickup, and immediately became the ugliest truck on the road. I've been disappointed in Toyota's priorities ever since. When is someone going to come out with a gas powered 3/4 ton truck that can get 30 mph lightly loaded? Ok, fire away!

 

[Kispiox]

Yes to death it has, but here is some definitive information instead of hearsay and opinion. If you do not want to read it don't. This is important to me because I have been subjected in the past to civil claim in an injury accident regardless the fact that I was not at fault. It was thrown out of court and my insurance company defended me. Here is what I found....

Okay, I did an inquiry into the vehicle code for California. It would appear that operation in excess of GVWR is a violation and the fines assessed are provided below based upon a graduated scale net of court costs. That's the bad news. The good news is CA does not levy a fine until you are 1,001lbs over GVWR. This is the Socialist Republic of California mind you. Hopefully this is not the case in America, but if I were you, would not bet the ranch on it.

However, since that is where FWC is located (sometimes I am certain much to their chagrin) and where my vehicle is licensed, then I thought a good place to research. While there is no fine associated with the delta between GVWR and 1,001lbs over, should we assume there is no violation? Okay so, my little voice advised me probably not a good assumption in the Socialist Republic of California, so then I called the CHP.

The officer told me "personally there is no way on gods green earth he would even give a second look at an F250 with a FWC as it relates to gross weight". He went on to say that technically one pound over is a violation but fines are not assessed until 1,001lb over. I then asked what would happen if he appeared on the scene of an accident with my involvement. He indicated that, "my rig would not cause him to further investigate weight". He went on to caution that, "attorneys are going to come after everyone from every angle".

So the remaining question is insurance. A previous poster indicated their carrier said they were insured as long as not in code violation? It is clear to me this is a violation. The remaining question is will we be insured and will they defend us against civil liability? This statement seemed in conflict to me because we are still insured even if at fault like running a red light for instance?

Sowa, next call insurance agent.. He said no worries, "the company is behind me, that's what you are paying for". He did say, "if I were in gross violation and in fact the cause of an accident, I may be dropped after the fact, but with my coverage they would both disburse against the claim and defend against civil liability".

Conclusion: I'm not going to get fined and my insurance is intact. Not-to-worry! For whatever it's worth I only spent one month last year in CA. Spent seven in BC Canada. I need to move to America.


Here is the link:
https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/?1dmy&urile=wcmath:/dmv_content_en/dmv/pubs/vctop/vc/d18/c1/a2/42030.1

Here is the statute (sorry fine table tabs didn't paste):
V C Section 42030.1 Declared Gross Vehicle Weight Limit Violations Penalties

Declared Gross Vehicle Weight Limit Violations: Penalties

42030.1. (a) Every person convicted of a violation of any declared gross vehicle weight limitation provision of this code, shall be punished by a fine that equals the amounts specified in the following table:
[Fines imposed for a conviction of a violation of operating a vehicle in excess of it's declared gross vehicle weight.]*
Pounds in Excess of the Declared Gross Vehicle Weight Fine
1,001-1,500 $ 250
1,501-2,000 300
2,001-2,500 350
2,501-3,000 400
3,001-3,500 450
3,501-4,000 500
4,001-4,500 550
4,501-5,000 600
5,001-6,000 700
6,001-7,000 800
7,001-8,000 900
8,001-10,000 1,000
10,001 and over 2,000
(b) No part of the penalties prescribed by this section shall be suspended for a conviction of any of the following:

(1) Section 40001 for requiring operation of a vehicle upon a highway in violation of any provision referred to in this section.

(2) Any provision referred to in this section when a second or subsequent conviction of a violation thereof occurs within three years immediately preceding the violation charged.

*The bracketed information has been added editorially to meet accessibility requirements and is not part of statute.

Added Sec. 58, Ch. 861, Stats. 2000. Effective September 29, 2000. Operative December 31, 2001.

 

[Piney]

Sorry, that was 30 mpg, not mph. Just trying to make light of a potentially serious discussion, and tweak some noses at the same time. Yup, I used to tease my sisters too.

 

[ntsqd]

I've been thinking to weigh ours anyway. First I gotta get it back from the transmission shop....

 

[Bill D]

Truck camper magazine has a good article about determining your payload
http://www.truckcampermagazine.com/newbie-articles/the-payload-match-challenge-part-2

Know the weight of your truck, camper, full tank of gas and 20 lbs of propane.
Know how much your essential and discretional items weigh.

know your
GVWR (gross vehicle weight rating)
GAWR front (gross axle weight rating)
GAWR rear (gross axle weight rating)


If you are pulling a trailer you also need to know the tongue weight of the trailer loaded and the weight of the trailer and load.

know your
GCWR (gross combined weight rating)

It doesn't cost much to gain this knowledge. A couple trips to the public scales and your done.

 

[idahoron]

The thing I thought was most interesting was that pickup by itself weighs the same as my truck does with the camper on it. That is a heavy truck.

 

[Bigfoot]

Bigfoot,

XKCD is one of my favorite black holes for time. How'd you find that one?

Paul

I know, it makes the internet tolerable.

 

[Bigfoot]

Yes to death it has, but here is some definitive information instead of hearsay and opinion. If you do not want to read it don't. This is important to me because I have been subjected in the past to civil claim in an injury accident regardless the fact that I was not at fault. It was thrown out of court and my insurance company defended me. Here is what I found....

Interesting. I wonder under what conditions the weight fines apply? I looks like they are written for commercial vehicles and for roadway weight limitations. I doubt that these sections are relevant to RVs although I could be wrong.

 

[Kispiox]

Interesting. I wonder under what conditions the weight fines apply? I looks like they are written for commercial vehicles and for roadway weight limitations. I doubt that these sections are relevant to RVs although I could be wrong.

Are you serious? I mean you're yanking my chain,...Right? Good one! Beers on me if we ever meet.

 

[leadsled9]

Yes, this topic has been discussed a lot before. It's been a while since I posted on this forum. My 2 cents.

I started out with my Hawk mounted on my half ton Tundra. I'm a Toyota fan from way back. Owned several Toyota trucks in the past with great reliability and value,

I installed Hawk on the Tundra because that is the truck I had at the time and got by with it for a while. Lots of folks end up putting their camper on what ever truck they happen to own at the time.

The newer Tundra may handle the load better, but the first generation Tundra could not. The performance was dismal....struggling to make it up any grade....gas mileage went in the crapper...but the most disturbing issue was the increased braking distance. Stopping had to be a "planned" event.

I ended up buying a 3/4 ton truck for the camper and now it is a totally different world. The 3/4 ton truck handles the load with ease. The new truck gets way better mileage, has plenty of power and stops when I want it too.

About 4 months after I purchased the new truck I was in Arizona with my son on vacation. I was on the freeway near Tucson when a motorcycle rider decided to change 4 lanes at once to catch an off ramp he was passing. He failed to clear a flat bed truck and came off his bike...bouncing down the freeway right in front of my truck. I slammed on the brakes and stopped 3 feet short of him. I was lucky that day for being able to stop before hitting him.....and that the vehicle behind me was able to stop without hitting me. I had vehicles on both sides of me so swerving to avoid the man was not an option.

The cyclist suffered serious but not life threatening injures. Had I been driving my half ton truck that day I would have certainly ran over him.

If you are planning to purchase a truck for hauling a camper, you would be much better served getting a 3/4 or 1 ton truck. I will never go back down to a half ton truck. YMMV.

 

[Bill D]

Leadsled, I agree with what you are saying. I'm glad you didn't squish the biker. What a horrible experience that would have been. I ran over a cat 10 years ago (with a 1 ton) and I still feel bad.

Like you said though, half tons have improved and they continue to improve. The new Fords can handle 2200lbs or more. I have a 2009 regular cab 2wd so I'm within my payload specs. Not everyone gets a full load hawk either. Shells aren't that heavy.

I cruise at about 58 mph by choice. I could do 80 mph all day long if I wanted to. I've found my fuel economy to be about equal to what I used to get on the highway doing about 70 mph without the Hawk.

As far as braking goes, I've always been cautious, but I allow myself more distance as well.

Isolated circumstances like the biker are going to happen.

To OP of this thread stated that FWC was misleading people by allowing them to beleive a 1/2 ton was adequate to haul a Hawk. I beleive it is. Yes a 3/4 ton is better in some instances.

 

[enelson]

The current Tundra and other brand 1/2 ton models have really stepped it up in terms of braking performance. The torque and horse power numbers for 5.7L Tundra engine is close to the 6.2L Ford gasser, but the Tundra is lighter. The difference is full floating axles and stiffer frame on the 3/4 and 1 tons and the time / money spent to get the 1/2 ton to carry the load with reasonable handling. The 3/4 and 1 ton gassers are a better deal in a camper ready rig, but I like drive the Tundra better than my old 2001 5.9L Cummins Dodge 3/4 ton as a daily driver.

The point of the OP was about the Tundra's ability to haul a FWC versus a 3/4+ ton rig. Yeah, the 800 lb/ft torque diesels blow the 5.7L Tundra away but the Tundra does fine compared to other gassers. Anyone out there shopping for a camper rig should note that the suspension on 1/2 ton trucks is marginal for a camper. Air bags work but are but don't help handling compared to heavier springs and a rear sway bar. So by the time you spend the time and money on suspension you would be out less money on a 3/4 or 1 ton that is completely camper ready. I just like the Tundra better though.

 

[fuzzymarindave]

I started in 2009 with a used 1/2 ton F150 super crew 4 x 4 followed by a used Hawk. I made the usual upgrades tires and suspension and during use the combo seemed to function pretty good. With seating for five and my kids getting bigger I knew my cargo could get heavier still. Plus I didn't like that the camper hang off the back by 1 foot. For peace of mind I switched then F250 super cab 4 x 4. Now I have seating for six and my payload has increased by 1000 pounds. Braking distance has improved. Both trucks have the same 5.4 gas motor and of course the F150 performed much better because it was lighter. The F250 is noticeably rougher ride. All said I am much happier now.

I think a 1/2 can work particularly when the truck does not have backseats and does not have 4 x 4. Available payload takes a nosedive with those features. I always thought it would be nice to use more advanced technology to build lighter camper and lighter accessories. However that will never help with the other stuff we carry around like people, water, food, fuel, etc.

 

[Kispiox]

Here are findings for BC, Canada....

Under third question; What are the penalties for driving a motor vehicle loaded above GVWR? Read down about half way as it pertains to Light trucks and RVs below 5,500kg (12,125lbs.).

Further reading and you will find that an RCMP officer does not even need to have you weighed. It is his discretion as to appearing heavily overloaded such as back end lower than front, tires appearing deflated and vehicle tipping.

Here is the link:

http://www.th.gov.bc.ca/cvse/references_publications/pdf/MV3231%28082003%29GVWR.pdf

Here is another handy government link specific to RVs, Tuck Campers and Towing:

http://www.th.gov.bc.ca/CVSE/vehicle_inspections/PDF/080530_Rec_Vehicle_GVWR_brake_DL.pdf

Must say however, I have seen just as many overloaded truck campers in Canada as the U.S. Many of them were from the U.S. Like here, I do not think that it is enforced for anything other than a severe violator. Also, there are far fewer RCMP Officers per 1,000 square miles than HP Officers in the US.

I FIND NOTHING FOR OREGON OR WASHINGTON. There appears to be no concern or enforcement for anything other than a commercial vehicle. So, everyone from California can now move to Oregon. Never mind, they have already done that. Have fun!

 

[Ramblinman]

I suspect to that our Mounted Police are burdened with more pressing issues other than interrupting an honest citizen on Vacation in their personal domestic RV - stranger things have happened but I hope and pray that that they would focus their enforcement activities on the overloaded commercial vehicles - but stranger things have happened.

 

[Wrinklie44]

I apologize for posting in the wrong place to start, but today I had someone tell me that they never paid any attention to the GVWR and didn't see any problem with being over. Would you buy an RV of any sort from them?

 

[Bill D]

I apologize for posting in the wrong place to start, but today I had someone tell me that they never paid any attention to the GVWR and didn't see any problem with being over. Would you buy an RV of any sort from them?

No I would not. I'm a by the book sort of guy. I looked into the payload on my truck and the weight of a FWC before I decided to make the purchase.
Do I think it's okay to go over GVWR by a little bit, once in a while... sure... but I wouldn't make a habit of it.
I certainly wouldn't purchase a unit that I knew was over GVWR.
I would want to make sure I was under GVWR wet. I want allowance to haul my gear and clothes.
I also want the ability to be able to purchase something and bring it home with me and a holiday trip.

We live in a world where people take emission controls off vehicles, have illegal tint on window etc. etc.
Personally when I go on vacation or even day to day. I don't want to have to worry about breaking the law and getting fines.
With as many options as there are on the marker today for RVs, trucks, campers etc. It's unnecessary and in my opinion irresponsible.

 

[Bigfoot]

I apologize for posting in the wrong place to start, but today I had someone tell me that they never paid any attention to the GVWR and didn't see any problem with being over. Would you buy an RV of any sort from them?

I would look very closely at what they were selling and take a test drive to see for myself. "Never paid any attention to the GVWR" begs the question as to what else they ignored.

GVWR is not standardized and is only one of several key factors to consider in a truck camper. People have been successfully upgrading stock trucks for many decades, although that takes knowledge of the given vehicle and potential mods. I have even had a couple of camper manufacturers tell me that going over GVWR is common and not a problem if properly done (low COG, suspension and tire upgrades, better cooling, etc.). Always tradeoffs with truck campers.

 

[Bill D]

Who needs a 3/4 ton when you can haul all this on a 1/2 ton with passenger tires.

I parked next to this guy today and had a coffee. I thought of this thread and just had to take a pic.

 

[super doody]

**I decided to add a few more comments in my original post here as you can see that this thread has gotten a lot of attention. It is a divisive issue. But there is sound advice and good information to be gathered if you look beyond the emotional reactions. As I state below please feel free to PM me if I can help with your research on this issue. Hopefully this thread will be easily found in the future for someone who is searching for answers on this issue.**

This thread may create a stir and I want to preface it by saying that I am sharing this strictly to give information from my experience. Perhaps there are others out there in the same situation I was in and are looking for some advice. This is not a rant, I just want to help. Some of it is my opinion and other parts are facts. I did some research ahead before making these decisions but the information was not really easy to piece together and thus I got myself into a bind. Here goes...

If you are buying a Hawk camper (or any for that matter) and it has a lot of the premium options AND you have or are considering a 1/2 ton truck then you need to be aware of the weight and possibly consider a truck with heavier payload capacity. There are many configurations of these campers (and trucks) so you will have to defer to your specific camper and truck combo. But one thing is pretty ubiquitous with 1/2 ton 4x4 trucks and that is payload capacity averages from 1300 to 1800lbs (+ or - depending on your truck)

So here are the FACTS

I had the following:

2015 Tundra Double Cab Limited TRD 4x4 with 5.7L FFV engine - Payload capacity is 1595lbs - GVWR is 7100lbs

I added these accessories:
3 inch leveling kit
18inch alloy wheels with 275 70 R18 E rated tires
Amp research power steps
TRD dual exhaust
Firestone Ride rite airbags with onboard compressor

This is a damn beautiful truck! But here is the kicker which unfortunately I did not completely consider ahead of time - Anything you add to the vehicle adds weight. Total payload includes all of these things PLUS the people in the vehicle and anything you are carrying. The accessories above added around 275lbs.

Factor this in and Payload is now at 1320lbs (1595 - 275)

My 2014 Hawk weighs in DRY at 1257lbs - I know this because I called FWC and asked. They weigh each unit before it is delivered so if you call and give them your serial number they can tell you the weight.

It is configured with the following in addition to standard items:
Camper Jacks
80 Liter fridge
Hot water and shower package
Side Dinette
Power roof fan
Solar system - single panel
2nd battery

Fill the 20 gal water tank and you add 166lbs (1 gal = 8.3lbs)

So with a full water tank and before I put anything else in the camper the weight is 1423lbs. I am now 100lbs overweight BEFORE myself, gear, girlfriend, dog etc is loaded up.

2 weeks ago I was on my first roadtrip with this camper and truck and I weighed in on a certified scale at 7600lbs (500 overweight) This was with the girl, dog, climbing gear, and food. No water. Jacks removed.

**Another thought I had after this thread took off was looking at the numbers in a different way. Consider this: 500lbs overweight as stated above is 33% over Payload Capacity of this truck. If really loaded for a long trip with water, gear, etc then I would be well over 50%. 500lbs or whatever may not sound like so much but when you consider the percentage values to me that seems far more eye opening.**

With this weight the truck could not maintain speed on the highway above 68ish without straining the engine. Now perhaps you should not drive much faster than that with a load but that is for you to decide. The truck suspension actually handles the weight pretty well which I was happy about. However the performance is lousy. Riding into a headwind I felt like I was pushing the engine way too hard just to keep speed around 65. This is where we get into the gray areas of fact vs opinion and your driving preferences so I wont go any farther into that.

Now really pack for a serious trip with all your gear, supplies, and people and you can start to get very heavy.

Another FACT - helper springs and airbags DO NOT INCREASE payload. They simply help the suspension carry a heavier load than it is designed for normal use.

I have read articles that suggest if you are driving overweight and are involved in an accident you can be held liable even if it is not your fault. I am still searching to know if this is in fact true. Certainly seems logical.

** I spoke to my insurance agency and it seems that in my state of WY that I would still be covered in an incident even if I was overweight. This is only in regards to my auto policy and specific to WY. It sounds like it is a state issue and regardless of the customer service agent's response at Progressive insurance I still dont feel good about operating over the specs. If something really goes wrong and the lawyers get involved you can be certain they will use any info that would help argue their client's case.**

**I also think wear and tear should be considered. If you are constantly running your vehicle at or beyond the capabilities at which it was designed it seems reasonable to suggest that you will cause premature wear resulting in higher maintenance costs. I drove my 2002 Tundra for 13 years and I plan to drive my new Dodge at least that long (assuming it will last! its my first Dodge)**

Now my thoughts...

I am not bashing Toyota or 1/2 ton trucks. And I am only commenting on this truck, perhaps other brands would perform better with such a load. I really loved that truck and I bought it with the intention of using it with my camper and the expectation of great performance. To rewind a bit I used to have a 2002 Tundra and a 2006 model Hawk. It was lighter but looking back I was certainly overweight then, I just didnt realize it. Payload of that truck was around 1300lbs. I was really happy overall which is why I decided to get a new Tundra. About the same time I happened into a deal I couldnt refuse on the 2014 Hawk. Turns out it weighs slightly more than the 2006. During this process I did ask around about the Hawk Tundra combo as I was actually considering a 3/4 ton diesel. The person who I purchased the camper from swore by his 2014 Tundra as well as several people on this forum with the same combo. So with that in mind I decided on the Tundra. And I pretty quickly felt that I made a mistake. Some of that has to do with my personal feelings about the truck but primarily it has to do with the weight factor. There could be several different things to address which might improve the performance including not having the accessories I added and keeping the load as trimmed down as possible when packing for a trip. But the fact remains that there is only so much room for error when it comes to the payload of your vehicle. I am a little disappointed that FWC isnt as forthcoming with the weight issue and that is likely b/c the primary truck market is 1/2 ton trucks. Technically this camper does not exceed that weight so it is not any fault of theirs and I imagine they would advise you accordingly if you were ordering a camper. Since I bought mine from a private seller I can not comment on how FWC handles this. This information is available but you do have to dig for it and want to know it. I can only imagine how many people with truck campers are running dangerously overweight. If you are a weekend warrior and do light travel then perhaps this article is irrelevant. You can certainly get away with driving a slightly overloaded vehicle if you are careful. But I use my camper frequently for long trips with lots of gear and it turns out I need a truck with more payload capacity and a bigger engine to handle it. So with that I have decided to upgrade to a RAM 2500. Unfortunately this is a costly mistake as I have lost some value in the new Tundra but in the long run I think it is the right decision for me. I am sure people will have a lot to say and I think that is a good thing. I wish this thread had been written a couple of months ago when I was beginning this process. If you have any questions please feel free to PM me and I will gladly share any info from this if it will help you make a good decision for your needs. I will also do a follow up once I have had some time with the new setup. My advice is to look real hard at the specs and consider all the factors to make an educated decision so you wont find yourself in my situation. I hope this will be helpful to someone else.

Cheers..

Aside from the GVWR I don't see how the current generation of Tundras with 5.7L V8 380 Hp and 400 lb.ft of torque would be straining the engine loaded with a camper. As a comparison I drive a 2006 Tundra Double cab (4.7L, 270 HP and ~313 ft. lb of tq) with a fully load Hawk (1390 Lbs) with over sized tires, it drive fine in normal situations but I would agree its under powered in certain situations i.e. steep grades.

I talk to guys with big hardside camper such as Arctic Fox and Eagle Cap, even with a 2500 trucks, these guys are thousands of pounds over the GVWR. I'm not saying this is is the right thing do but its just another perspective.