Current Spike in Gas Prices

How are gas prices affecting your travel plans?

  • Makes no difference, I'm hitting the road!

    Votes: 73 78.5%
  • Ouch, I'm staying close to home, shorter trips

    Votes: 17 18.3%
  • My wallet is empty, no trips for me.

    Votes: 3 3.2%

  • Total voters
    93
AWG_Pics said:
I really do love you guys! I mean it. Right now I feel good about high gas prices. Thanks friends!

Lighthawk said:
Like Tony, I also love this board and it's neorational members!

Foy said:
I'm happy to add a "me, too" to Lighthawk's comment. While I don't always agree with the opinions of every WTW regular, I am convinced that each is a pretty dang bright and thoughtful individual so I need not always agree in order to listen to and respect their views when different than my own.
My late father, an engineer turned CPA (much like my own geologist to CPA career path), used to tell my sisters and I to "spend as much time as you can with people smarter than you, and as little time as you must among people not as smart as you". I feel like I'm heeding his advice with the regular and robust exchange of ideas here on WTW.
Best regards to all,
Foy
How refreshing it is to have a dialogue without the usual inane rhetoric (that is so woefully uninformed) and among educated, likable, and respectful individuals. Thank you.

Views and ideas need to be tested. One major pet peeve of mine is the statement "looking for like minded people." Why in the world would I want to do that? That would be like hanging out with myself all the time. I'm looking for better company.

Julie and I have been together and best friends for over 40 years. There's been a lot of discussions and debates over those years. We've always had a basic guideline - the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

We taught map and compass, land navigation, and outdoor skills for over 30 years (now gloriously retired from such a incredibly rewarding experience. You learn so much from teaching others). We taught the key to survival is asking the question, "What if I am wrong?"

The causes of our current high fuel prices are many and complex. It is a global issue and difficult for this backcountry traveler to feel confident about understanding. In the big picture, in the words of Mongo, "I'm just little pawn in game of life."

Understanding, compassion, courtesy, and respect is much more important than how much a tank of gas costs me. I'm glad so many here agree with that.
 
Just got back from the FWC rally. Pump shut off at $175. Almost a full tank. I was down to an eighth of a tank but I'm glad I waited. Saved forty cents a gallon by not fueling up along the way.
 
Alley-Kat said:
Makes no difference. My V6, 4.0L, Ford Ranger gets 21 mpg with the help of my ScanGauge II.

I'm taking longer trips, with big distances at the beginning and end of the trip, and lots or smaller moves (or no moves at all) for most of the trip (I'm "lucky" and don't "get to work" much anymore, so I can afford the time away). It's the dollar cost averaging method of wandering the west (average daily costs go down). Plus once I set up a base camp, I can explore a radius of 100+ miles in all directions on my Honda Trail CT110 every day and only use a couple of gallons of gas each day.
I also have a couple of Honda CT's. How do you carry your CT110 with the camper on?
 
ski3pin said:
MarkBC has turned me around and I'll also look for the silver lining. After 2 years of crowded backcountry and disgusting behaviors, perhaps the high prices will keep people out of the woods. I can hope. :)
This is my silver lining and I believe it is happening - at least from what I can see I can see. The lack of traffic is lovely.
 
AWG_Pics said:
Oil companies are free-market capital driven entities. They do not watch Biden or Putin, nor the King of Saudi Arabia. They watch each other. They are in competition, trying to sell as much of their product as possible for whatever the market will bear. They are not intrinsically evil or good. They are for-profit entities that will only drop prices when another significant oil company drops their prices. We set them up that way (the collective we, going back a hundred years or more.)

It is not really any more than 'making hay while the sun shines' and 'hunkering down when times are tough'. They make money while they can, and when profits are high, like now, begin to invest in new prospects, which may take a couple of decades to pay off. When the price of oil falls, they cut back, lay people off and weather out the storm, if possible.

If consumers cut back significantly on buying gas and diesel, soon thereafter the prices would fall.

Meanwhile, people like me that do not consider fuel cost as a major impediment to my travel plans, ought not to complain.
I've mentioned to a couple of complainers and finger pointers that this is capitalism working exactly as it was intended and if we want the price to drop we need to cut back on our purchasing.

I don't drive much. I am much more concerned about people who HAVE to drive - especially to a low paying job.
 
I added my additional 5 gal cans to the Jeep today. Pump shut of at $100 and I was still a gallon or two short. I'm thinking I might need to hire security :)

I certainly understand making a profit but isn't there a point where enough is enough?
 
Pump prices fluctuate due to many factors, not just pure supply & demand. Oil futures, stock market anticipation/fears, etc. It has been mentioned that this is capitalism at work. Unfortunately, a 300% increase in profit during tough inflationary times for consumers is the dark side of capitalism.
 
Mighty Dodge Ram said:
Unfortunately, a 300% increase in profit during tough inflationary times for consumers is the dark side of capitalism.
A 300% increase in profit can only mean one thing.............or does it?

I'm in the odd (OK, strange) position of having earned a degree in geology, with a minor in economics, way back in 1978. After just 6 years on the road on mineral exploration projects, I decided having a home life with my wife and our infant son was more important than the joys of bombing around in trucks breaking rocks for a living. Returned to my hometown of Raleigh, NC, went back to college, and two years later emerged with a CPA certificate. All of that is to say that the inner workings of accounting and tax law have been my focus for 38 years now.

It's impossible to draw many, no, any conclusions with a single fact such as a 300% increase in profit. Over what time frame? A 1% of gross revenue profit grows to a 3% of gross profit? A $10 profit in a year's time grows to a $30 profit? Context means everything when it comes to financial statement analysis.

I like to tell a little story about Company A and Company B, then ask what the listener's (reader's) think about the companies involved. These are real-world large publicly traded multinational corporations based in the US. While they're in wildly different industries, each is a vertically integrated enterprise which produces a product line formed by their efforts and processes from raw materials to retail sales. As publicly traded corporations based in the US, there are no shenanigans as to how gross revenue, costs of goods sold, overhead expense, and net income (profit) are computed. All large US corporations are required to play by the same rules as to how income, direct costs, and overhead are computed, and all must submit to annual financial statement audits by independent CPA firms in order to demonstrate that they're doing exactly that.

So, from the beginning of 2013 through the end of 2021, Company A saw gross revenue increase in 8 of the 9 years, with the one year of revenue decline of about 9% from the prior year's gross. By year 9, 2021, the gross had more than doubled from year 1. And Company A was producing strong profits, expressed as a percentage of gross revenue, in each of the 9 years. The lowest level of profit was 20.9% of gross while the highest profit rate was 25.9%, with a 9 year simple average of 22.4%.

From 2013 through 2021, Company B saw gross revenues swing through a broad range of values, with the lowest revenue years coming in at less than 50% of the highest year's gross. In 5 of the 9 years Company B's gross was greater than Company A's. Company B's profits, expressed as a percentage of gross revenue, varied widely, with highest annual profit being 8.1% and one year showing a 12.4% loss. Their 9 year simple average was 4.7% of gross revenue. The difference between the highest profit year and the loss year was around 250%.

The dollar volume of profits earned by Company A, with its much greater degree of profitability, ranged from a low of $41.7B (billion) to a high of $94.7B. There were no loss years, and the smallest annual profit was in 2014 when it earned $39.5B. Company B, with its widely varying gross revenue and a profitability of around 20% of Company A's, earned a high of $23.1B in one year and had a low of a $22.4B loss in their worst year of the 9.

Company A's profit nearly doubled in terms of dollars of profit from 2020 to 2021, leaping from $57.4B to $95.7B. Company B also saw an extraordinary leap in profit from 2020 to 2021, coming out of the $22.4B loss in 2020 to post a $23.0B profit in 2021. So it can be observed that both Company A and Company B rebounded from a less than stellar 2020 to a strong recovery in 2021. It should be observed that Company A still earned a 20.9% annual profit in 2020 and managed to make the aforementioned $57.4B, while Company B suffered a huge loss in 2020 and in some ways was fortunate to survive.

Company A manufactures a product line holding a material portion of the global market for similar products. It has an absolute monopoly on its proprietary goods and intellectual property. The great majority of Company A's manufacturing processes take place outside of the US, primarily in China. A large portion of the raw materials used in the production of components for Company A''s products come from outside of the US also, primarily from China. Company A alone sets the price of its products at the retail level--there is no competition--if you want a product to do exactly what Company A's do, you're buying from Company A or you're doing without.

Company B produces products which are, from the raw material starting point all the way through to the finished retail product, a fungible commodity. Fungible commodity is a fancy economic term for goods or materials available widely, without meaningful distinction among suppliers, and without meaningful differences in suitability for the purposes of the buyer. Fungible commodities also share the characteristic of being bought and sold on markets all over the globe with supply and demand setting the prices, not the producers themselves. Corn and wheat are good examples of fungible commodities. The production of Company B's products require enormous investments in capital infrastructure and there are risks of catastrophic financial loss at essentially every step of the way from the beginning of the process to the retail purchaser. Many years, and in many cases, decades, pass between the starting point of the process until revenue begins to be received, and more years often pass before profits are realized.

Surely by now everybody knows where this is going--only the exact names may still be a mystery. Company A is Apple, Inc. Company B is Exxon-Mobil. The gross revenue figures and net income (profit) figures took me about 120 seconds to pull up courtesy of Google. Yes, Exxon-Mobil saw extraordinary increases in profit, expressed as a percentage of gross revenue and in hard dollars, from 2020 to 2021. So did Apple. Exxon-Mobil clearly needs (at least clearly to this old geologist-turned CPA) a highly profitable year now and then in order to offset the low profit and loss years. It's not so clear that Apple needs 9 successive highly profitable years. Maybe just because they can?

Now just a few words about Exxon-Mobil's "obscene profits" or "windfall profits": Exxon-Mobil and most producers of oil and gas faced investor revolts in the mid- to late 20-teens. Shareholders were tired of modest dividend yields and absence of strong share value growth curves. They demanded curtailment in exploration and production expenditures with higher dividend payouts and stock buybacks as uses of the cashflows, not reinvestment in increased production. Then, in 2020, political pressure began to mount with the stated goal said in so many words to be the outright destruction of their industry. The pressure increased in 2021 with every level of executive power focused on immediate curtailment of increases in production, from cancellation of lease sales to regulatory obstruction at every stop along the way from well to pump. The Treasury Department openly chastised the capital markets for providing debt and equity capital to the industry and spoke sternly of regulatory interference to prevent capital from reaching the industry. With all of that, small wonder that exploration and production expenditures ground to a quick halt, while in the accounting sense, no wonder that with the market forces driving prices and gross revenues up, the cutbacks in exploration and development expenses dropped straight to the bottom line. Ain't nowhere else for it to go!

So, after some careful reading, some independent study, and some individual experiences with Apple and with Exxon-Mobil, or their ilk, which Company do you think is the profiteering price gouger? Please show your work to your classmates, which include all of us.

Thanks for reading. Looking forward to hearing more from this august group.

Foy
 
Foy, thanks for your lengthy treatise to my rant, all good points to consider. My response was essentially a comment re: simple supply/demand and the topic question how are gas prices affecting your travel plans? I believe your response using Exxon/Mobil clearly explains and supports my position that fuel prices are determined by far more than just supply/demand. But from a purely consumer point of view, I think there is a difference between Apple and E/M profit profiles.

I’d offer that purchasing based on discretionary funds between buying a new iPhone and traveling are similar decisions. Despite that there are more options in pricing and features when it comes to buying a mobile phone vs filling your tank for a trip, I still believe it’s a similar decision point; you can either afford to or you can’t.

But stepping outside the survey question, I would submit that the everyday purchasing of gasoline is far from discretionary in real time. Petroleum, mainly in the form of fuel, drives the pricing of products across the board and is one of the contributors (I’ve heard some argue the primary contributor) to the current inflationary environment. I’m not going to debate the causes of inflation but it’s clear that gas prices affect everybody, particularly the “have nots” when it comes to day-to-day living. There are those in real crisis due to gas prices, and their decision is not discretionary.

My wife and I are very blessed in that we’ll weather the current economic environment; and so it is for my two young stepsons. But…when I consider high oil industry profits in the light of real effects on people who can least offset high gas prices, I would still submit that this is the dark side of capitalism.
 
Nice to hear your viewpoint, Richard. But if your take on mine is that I contend that oil companies can set the prices on the fungible commodities which they produce, you're mistaken. See the attributes of a fungible commodity which pertains to global availability, generic nature, sold to the highest bidders on markets all over the world. I steadfastly do not believe oil companies can set the price of their products.

Which is not to say that entire nations, or groups of nations (ie OPEC) cannot and do not attempt to manipulate supply to cause prices to rise in the face of artificially restricted supply. Of course they do. They're cartels and that's their mission statement. But look back into the economic histories of cartels, including OPEC. Cartels fail to exert long-term manipulation of supplies every time out of the box and for one simple reason: Not all producers are in the cartel, and the cartels themselves break ranks. The cartel members go underground to generate additional revenue for themselves. It happens every time. That's why in today's times large numbers of tankers on the oceans mysteriously turn off their transponders, meet up with other tankers offshore to transfer product, enter port facilities quietly, and generally find ways to sell product to markets clamoring for it. The long-term effects of OPEC on oil prices is negligible, pure and simple. As I type this, who knows how many tanker loads of Russian oil are afloat on the world's oceans. As large as they are, they can actually disappear when necessary. And the really fascinating thing, at least to me, is that as much as OPEC wants to manipulate supply to affect prices, there's a definite line of demarcation involved--it's long been said that the last thing OPEC wants is $150/bbl oil. Why? Because at $150/bbl, vast amounts of supply appears on the market, having been made profitable to produce at $150 while having been shut-in at $50. So OPEC's ongoing attempt to manipulate supplies has a very real cap. It's pretty slick, but economic history is unwavering--it doesn't work long term.

I don't think wide swaths of the population, especially those under, say, 40-45 years of age, share the notion that smartphones are any less important than motor fuel. Even the Federal government gives smartphones to low income individuals--a pretty sure sign that the demand is high and the sense of need is strong. Aside from that, the Consumer Price Index surely includes personal digital devices in its basket of goods. With that assumption, and with Apple's flagship products now retailing well in excess of $1,000, surely their pricing is a driver of inflation. Why isn't Apple under assault for profiteering and price gouging in the face of very real and harmful inflation? Yet they put + 20% of gross revenue on the bottom line year in and year out, and nobody seems concerned about their windfall profits.

My wife and I are empty nesters--parents of sons aged 36 and 39. We have not even considered changing our July-August travel plans due to fuel prices, even going so far as to spend lots of time and money getting the old 7.3 diesel Superduty shipshape. We're disappointed about the likely cost of fuel relative to what we expected just a few months ago. But now in our late 60s, we figure we don't have but so many 7,500 mile road trips left in us. Our disappointment in the fuel prices is focused in on the policy decisions which we earnestly believe are behind them, not the oil companies. Taking executive action which can only limit supply, following having campaigned on exactly those talking points, then telling me that it's Putin's fault or price gouging by American oil companies, is a lot like peeing on my leg and telling me it's raining. I'm not buying it. I'm all ears and eyes to hear and see evidence to the contrary, but I haven't seen any yet.

Foy
 
I’m coming from the micro side and it appears you’re coming from the macro. Of course, I could be wrong, I frequently am. As to the political remarks/rationale, I’ll have to agree to disagree. ✌️
 
Fascinating discussion and I appreciate both sides of the discussion although I am firmly in Foy’s camp.
Foy it appears that you and I are of a similar age having received my first college degree in ‘78 as well.. you mentioned a big trip this summer. Can I ask where?
We are going to Newfoundland and Labrador later this summer and it will probably be of a similar mileage.
 
I am enjoying this back and forth. Thanks for all the information. For the time being I will just continue to read, think about what folks are saying and keep my powder dry.

Just one point: there is no enduring mirage more elusive than the notion of 'Peak oil'.
 
Enjoying the civil discussion of the profits of mega corporations.

My 2 cents:

There are other cell phones cheaper than Apple so I have a choice. Many feel the Apple is worth the extra money and some do not.

All oil companies sell gas at close to the same price. IMO they are all the same and in reality we have not choice.

Apples to Oranges.
 
billharr said:
Apples to Oranges.
Vehicles and cell phones are devices; you can get a cheap one or an expensive one.
Gasoline and cell plans are needed to make the device useful.

US gasoline prices are set by supply and demand. Refining has dropped by 1,000,000 barrels of oil per day compared to 2020. Your other options are rationing or shortages.
 
I'm enjoying the discussion. Lots to learn from the learned...

I'm glad we have seemingly gotten past the simple posting of prices. Those are important of course, but there is so much more to this discussion.

Let's keep on with the cause and effect....
 
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