ramblinChet
Gone Traveling
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ri-f
Senior Member
Replace the turnbuckles with Derringer Fast Guns and use large, heavy-duty aluminum plate under the bed, preferably under a rib or strong part of the frame (not directly under the bed sheet metal) to spread the load. Once you get the fast guns set, they will not vibrate loose or need readjustment.ramblinChet said:
https://www.amazon.com/Torklift-S9528-FastGun-Derringer/dp/B003VARKVI
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Hi Chet,ramblinChet said:
You can also use external tie downs, they are very secure, but do have the risk of catching on brush/rocks if you’re in tight terrain. I use the Torklift system on my hardside.
If you don't plan on removing it often or at all, then a bolt though option seems like easiest and most secure bet. Use large (M12 or 1/2") bolts with locking nuts and either backing plates or heavy fender washers to spread the load on both sides.
The stress on the bolt is entirely axial and having one bolt loosen or fail won't loosen the others, unlike a turn buckle or similar attachment. This is how the flatbeds are attached (and your truck bed for that matter). I have checked mine once or twice in the past 5 years and they have not moved or loosened at all.
The stress on the bolt is entirely axial and having one bolt loosen or fail won't loosen the others, unlike a turn buckle or similar attachment. This is how the flatbeds are attached (and your truck bed for that matter). I have checked mine once or twice in the past 5 years and they have not moved or loosened at all.
Jon R
Senior Member
Are the slide-in FWC versions designed to be attached by bolting the floor down?
DavidGraves
Senior Member
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Howdy
I also have my FWC Hawk shell thru bolted to frame at front and the forged turnbuckles at the rear.
I did this because I REALLY wanted the front fender well space uncluttered by the turnbuckles.
I positioned the camper just where it needs to be then thru drilled up through existing holes in the frame and bed and then thru the camper floor after fitting a solid wood filler under camper in the area of the hole.
A lot of measuring before hand but have been pleased with the results.....of course used adequate 1/2 inch bolts, wide wishers and locking nuts.
I would not have done this if the camper came off often but that is not the case for us.
YMMV
David Graves
I also have my FWC Hawk shell thru bolted to frame at front and the forged turnbuckles at the rear.
I did this because I REALLY wanted the front fender well space uncluttered by the turnbuckles.
I positioned the camper just where it needs to be then thru drilled up through existing holes in the frame and bed and then thru the camper floor after fitting a solid wood filler under camper in the area of the hole.
A lot of measuring before hand but have been pleased with the results.....of course used adequate 1/2 inch bolts, wide wishers and locking nuts.
I would not have done this if the camper came off often but that is not the case for us.
YMMV
David Graves
DavidGraves
Senior Member
- Joined
- Mar 24, 2016
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- 1,270
Howdy
I also have my FWC Hawk shell thru bolted to frame at front and the forged turnbuckles at the rear.
I did this because I REALLY wanted the front fender well space uncluttered by the turnbuckles.
I positioned the camper just where it needs to be then thru drilled up through existing holes in the frame and bed and then thru the camper floor after fitting a solid wood filler under camper in the area of the hole.
Made a sleeve to center in frame holes to guide drill.
A lot of measuring before hand but have been pleased with the results.....of course used adequate 1/2 inch bolts, wide wishers and locking nuts.
I would not have done this if the camper came off often but that is not the case for us.
YMMV
David Graves
I also have my FWC Hawk shell thru bolted to frame at front and the forged turnbuckles at the rear.
I did this because I REALLY wanted the front fender well space uncluttered by the turnbuckles.
I positioned the camper just where it needs to be then thru drilled up through existing holes in the frame and bed and then thru the camper floor after fitting a solid wood filler under camper in the area of the hole.
Made a sleeve to center in frame holes to guide drill.
A lot of measuring before hand but have been pleased with the results.....of course used adequate 1/2 inch bolts, wide wishers and locking nuts.
I would not have done this if the camper came off often but that is not the case for us.
YMMV
David Graves
pvstoy
Senior Member
I have owned 2 FWC over the years and all of them were bolted through the floor. Never did I have any issues.
Two slide-in models and one flatbed model. 1983 Fleet was factory designed to be bolted through the bed at the time.
You'll have to weigh in all your mounting options and go with the one you want. You want clamping force to keep the camper from moving. Having something like spray in liner adds roughness and helps hold the camper from sliding. And with a clamping force system that does not come loose there is not much allowance for the camper to shift.
Some have even made wood frame system around the camper base that does not allow the camper to slide around and this helps if you don't have any friction material on the truck bed.
With just turn buckles at four corners and a smooth truck bed you are going to get shifting and forces pulling and relaxing, that might be the biggest reason that stock turn buckles loosen and back off.
*And as Andy has mentioned below.. He has used nylocks wingnut on the turn buckles and now it is captative not allowing the nut to back off.
Two slide-in models and one flatbed model. 1983 Fleet was factory designed to be bolted through the bed at the time.
You'll have to weigh in all your mounting options and go with the one you want. You want clamping force to keep the camper from moving. Having something like spray in liner adds roughness and helps hold the camper from sliding. And with a clamping force system that does not come loose there is not much allowance for the camper to shift.
Some have even made wood frame system around the camper base that does not allow the camper to slide around and this helps if you don't have any friction material on the truck bed.
With just turn buckles at four corners and a smooth truck bed you are going to get shifting and forces pulling and relaxing, that might be the biggest reason that stock turn buckles loosen and back off.
*And as Andy has mentioned below.. He has used nylocks wingnut on the turn buckles and now it is captative not allowing the nut to back off.
Lighthawk
Weekend warrior
Our current setup has 10 years of use with factory turnbuckles, using a nylock wingnut on one side. The camper stays put.
I can see deformation on the front passenger corner of the Tundra truck bed, with fender washers beneath. I'll be using larger aluminum plates or equal in the future.
I can see deformation on the front passenger corner of the Tundra truck bed, with fender washers beneath. I'll be using larger aluminum plates or equal in the future.
fish more
Senior Member
X2 on the the under bed plates, my F150 had fractures in the bed from flex. So on my F250 plates were installed with the Fast Guns, no problem.
DavidGraves
Senior Member
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- Mar 24, 2016
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- 1,270
With Respect, you are thinking WAY too hard.
Happy Easter.
David Graves
Happy Easter.
David Graves
As a recovering over-thinker myself, I would have to say you may be overthinking this. There are hundreds (thousands?) of FWC running around on all sorts of roads, bolted to truck beds, I have never seen or heard of any sort of 3-point mount. We have around 35,000 miles with our bolt down Fleet on a Tacoma (which certainly has a more flexy frame than F350), including plenty of rough roads with zero issues or retightening required.
To answer your specific questions:
1. Using bolts you can essentially get as much clamping force as you want by torquing the bolts appropriately and all that force is normal to the camper bottom, which is a major advantage to using bolts.
The issue is more likely to be too much clamping force. Here is a useful table of clamping force vs torque for various bolts. If you are worried about the camper moving laterally, you could add a high friction surface such as rubberized bed liner to the truck bed, but this is not necessary.
2. Again really not a problem, there are plenty of examples in service with no apparent issues. The more complicated mount you are suggesting is likely to be less secure, as you will have little clamping force holding the camper down, leading to reduced friction and higher lateral forces on the hold down system.
To answer your specific questions:
1. Using bolts you can essentially get as much clamping force as you want by torquing the bolts appropriately and all that force is normal to the camper bottom, which is a major advantage to using bolts.
The issue is more likely to be too much clamping force. Here is a useful table of clamping force vs torque for various bolts. If you are worried about the camper moving laterally, you could add a high friction surface such as rubberized bed liner to the truck bed, but this is not necessary.
2. Again really not a problem, there are plenty of examples in service with no apparent issues. The more complicated mount you are suggesting is likely to be less secure, as you will have little clamping force holding the camper down, leading to reduced friction and higher lateral forces on the hold down system.
camper rich
Senior Member
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2016
- Messages
- 363
My first FWC was a Ranger II Shell Model on a 1998 Dodge Dakota. Right after it's first Baja trip I discovered that the camper had slid forward in the bed to the point it had colapsed the front of the bed to the point it was leaning against the cab of the truck. It had been installed by the original FWC in Sacramento and had all four turnbuckles pulling it forward into the bed. I wrote a letter to the factory and they since changed the mounting so the turnbuckles were pulling against each other to keep it from moving fore and aft. After several more trips I found that one of the bolts they used for a tiedown had pulled completely through the plywood. fixed that by using a 4" steel plate inside the camper to spread the force over a much larger area. I then put large washers on the other three tie downs and never had a problem until I found the original bolt had broken which I just replaced with a new bolt (I forgot what grade). That camper made 15 Baja trips in the 18 year I owned it.
In 2016 we bought a new fully loaded Grandby which we use on a 2008 Dodge 2500 SB so it is hanging out over the tailgate. The new FWC had changed the tiedowns to the plates they now use and it is a much stronger system. When our Dealer installed the camper I wanted them to use the eyes installed already in the truck which went through the crossmembers under the bed. They insisted they install new eyes in each corner, just through the sheetmetal with a 3 x 5 inch plate on the underside to spread out the load. Now, after 4 more trips to Baja I have found that the sheetmetal has popped up, in some cases breaking spotwelds. I pounded the metal back in to shape and took the truck to my welder who agreed with me that the sheetmetal is simply not strong enough and that the camper needs to be tied to the frame. This is what Toyota does with the brackets FWC sells for the composite beds. My welder made some big L brackets out of 1/2" steel and welded them to the frame and the eyebolts are run through the existing holes and tied to them.
I do not use my truck and camper for rockcrawling, only driving the dirt road is Baja which do have rough spots to get over. One of the roughest thing is accidentally hitting the frequent speedbumps at too high of speed which can be really jarring. Since I usually have a trailer with me, I do not drive fast on rough roads.
No matter how you tie the camper down, when it is really stressed something has got to give unless there is movement designed into your tiedown system.
Here is some more reading:
https://www.wanderthewest.com/forum/topic/19746-backing-plates-pulling-through-truck-bed/?hl=damage#entry231738
In 2016 we bought a new fully loaded Grandby which we use on a 2008 Dodge 2500 SB so it is hanging out over the tailgate. The new FWC had changed the tiedowns to the plates they now use and it is a much stronger system. When our Dealer installed the camper I wanted them to use the eyes installed already in the truck which went through the crossmembers under the bed. They insisted they install new eyes in each corner, just through the sheetmetal with a 3 x 5 inch plate on the underside to spread out the load. Now, after 4 more trips to Baja I have found that the sheetmetal has popped up, in some cases breaking spotwelds. I pounded the metal back in to shape and took the truck to my welder who agreed with me that the sheetmetal is simply not strong enough and that the camper needs to be tied to the frame. This is what Toyota does with the brackets FWC sells for the composite beds. My welder made some big L brackets out of 1/2" steel and welded them to the frame and the eyebolts are run through the existing holes and tied to them.
I do not use my truck and camper for rockcrawling, only driving the dirt road is Baja which do have rough spots to get over. One of the roughest thing is accidentally hitting the frequent speedbumps at too high of speed which can be really jarring. Since I usually have a trailer with me, I do not drive fast on rough roads.
No matter how you tie the camper down, when it is really stressed something has got to give unless there is movement designed into your tiedown system.
Here is some more reading:
https://www.wanderthewest.com/forum/topic/19746-backing-plates-pulling-through-truck-bed/?hl=damage#entry231738
ri-f
Senior Member
First off, there is nothing inherently wrong or risky about turnbuckles. Same holds true for thru-bolts. There are, however, reasons why turnbuckles fail, and there are also reasons why stainless bolts fail. The primary reasons are 1) shock loading, and 2) undetected crevice corrosion in stainless components. Crevice corrosion typically occurs in a salt air environment. But shock loading causes stress fractures too. If the stress from shock loading is severe it will result in metal fatigue and break a fitting. A turnbuckle could break in half. A bolt head could snap off as well. You know what they say about stainless: it is great until it's not.
A hot-forged galvanized fitting, such as a quality turnbuckle, or eyebolt, etc. will hold up better under severe stress than a stainless or aluminum fitting.
The other very important factor in avoiding fitting failures, is spreading the load over the ribs of the frame by using an appropriate sized heavy-guage flat plate. A washer is not appropriate.
Any of the mentioned attachment methods will work well, even in rough conditions if the component parts are up to the task.
Tuning the turnbuckles, or bolts, or fast guns, is as simple as not overtightening, and not leaving too much slack either. Too much tightening doesn't allow for any movement and can stress the metal when it approaches a breaking load. Too much slack will cause stress loading as abrupt shock continually snaps at the metal. The bottom line is to snug up the fittings well, by hand, but don't continue to crank on them until you can't move them any further - just take it easy.
One other cause for concern with non locking turnbuckles is vibration that can loosen a fitting. A cotter pin or some threadlocker 'blue' on thread or nut will take care of that issue. One of the features of the 'fast guns' is that they can't vibrate loose. They will lock in place. And they are intuitively easy to snug up correctly (again, not too tight, not too loose). And of course they are fast to connect/disconnect, as the name implies.
As far as thin stainless piano hinges go, do you really think they can handle the stress and shock loads of a 1,500 pound or more camper, attached to a sheet metal truck bed? I can appreciate the innovative idea, but in this case the method appears to be approaching a Rube Goldberg design. Just don't think it's necessary.
I can tell you that after 20 years and 35,000 open-ocean nautical miles, including numerous trans-Pacific crossings, on a small cutter-rigged sailboat, often enough in big rolling seas, we never had a rigging failure due to stressed out stainless turnbuckles. Stainless thru-bolts, on the other hand, did fail in a corrosive salt-water environment (something that is not at all likely with your camping rig on forest service roads). The ocean is a harsh environment and oftentimes extreme stress is exerted on the fittings. The way you tune turnbuckles on a sailboat rig is exactly how I would tune them on a camping rig, once again, not too tight, not too loose. And equally as important - use appropriate backing plates where necessary.
Don't stress out over attachment techniques on your new camper, any of the method mentioned will work just fine as long as you use quality hardware of the correct size, and suitable backing plates. Good luck with the new rig.
Rich
A hot-forged galvanized fitting, such as a quality turnbuckle, or eyebolt, etc. will hold up better under severe stress than a stainless or aluminum fitting.
The other very important factor in avoiding fitting failures, is spreading the load over the ribs of the frame by using an appropriate sized heavy-guage flat plate. A washer is not appropriate.
Any of the mentioned attachment methods will work well, even in rough conditions if the component parts are up to the task.
Tuning the turnbuckles, or bolts, or fast guns, is as simple as not overtightening, and not leaving too much slack either. Too much tightening doesn't allow for any movement and can stress the metal when it approaches a breaking load. Too much slack will cause stress loading as abrupt shock continually snaps at the metal. The bottom line is to snug up the fittings well, by hand, but don't continue to crank on them until you can't move them any further - just take it easy.
One other cause for concern with non locking turnbuckles is vibration that can loosen a fitting. A cotter pin or some threadlocker 'blue' on thread or nut will take care of that issue. One of the features of the 'fast guns' is that they can't vibrate loose. They will lock in place. And they are intuitively easy to snug up correctly (again, not too tight, not too loose). And of course they are fast to connect/disconnect, as the name implies.
As far as thin stainless piano hinges go, do you really think they can handle the stress and shock loads of a 1,500 pound or more camper, attached to a sheet metal truck bed? I can appreciate the innovative idea, but in this case the method appears to be approaching a Rube Goldberg design. Just don't think it's necessary.
I can tell you that after 20 years and 35,000 open-ocean nautical miles, including numerous trans-Pacific crossings, on a small cutter-rigged sailboat, often enough in big rolling seas, we never had a rigging failure due to stressed out stainless turnbuckles. Stainless thru-bolts, on the other hand, did fail in a corrosive salt-water environment (something that is not at all likely with your camping rig on forest service roads). The ocean is a harsh environment and oftentimes extreme stress is exerted on the fittings. The way you tune turnbuckles on a sailboat rig is exactly how I would tune them on a camping rig, once again, not too tight, not too loose. And equally as important - use appropriate backing plates where necessary.
Don't stress out over attachment techniques on your new camper, any of the method mentioned will work just fine as long as you use quality hardware of the correct size, and suitable backing plates. Good luck with the new rig.
Rich
ri-f and camper rich have summed it up nicely. I wish I had their advice when my camper was first mounted.
I've had a FWC Ranger on a 2004 Tundra Double Cab for 16+ years now and the original FWC hardware pulled through the plywood and the flimsy original aluminum turnbuckles self-destructed on trails in the southwest and Baja in the first year.
After repairing the ripped out plywood with resin filler and fiberglass, I replaced the FWC eyebolts with forged steel lifting eyebolts rated for lifting heavy machinery. They were available from an industrial supplier at the time. Yes, they were overkill, but the 2" eyes with ⅝" bolts were just what I was looking for. I used ¼" stainless plate cut to 4x8" as backing plates behind the plywood on the top, and below the bed on the bottom. I finished the fix with bronze turnbuckles rated at 5 tons each sourced from a boat chandler. More overkill. Each of the turnbuckles' threaded sections has a cotter key to stop any loosening from vibration.
This fix has been bulletproof for 150,000 miles of rough treatment and when I had the camper off this year everything looked just like the day I installed it. No breaks, no bends, no pulled up sheet metal on the bed or broken plywood on the camper. I REALLY did not want a repeat of the 'camper breaking loose in the truck bed' experience and this has been accomplished.
You probably don't need to go to these lengths, but do make sure the hardware you have will survive the treatment you expect to give it and do something substantial to spread the load behind the mounts on the sheet metal and the plywood. The vibration and loads on the camper mounts are easy to underestimate.
I've had a FWC Ranger on a 2004 Tundra Double Cab for 16+ years now and the original FWC hardware pulled through the plywood and the flimsy original aluminum turnbuckles self-destructed on trails in the southwest and Baja in the first year.
After repairing the ripped out plywood with resin filler and fiberglass, I replaced the FWC eyebolts with forged steel lifting eyebolts rated for lifting heavy machinery. They were available from an industrial supplier at the time. Yes, they were overkill, but the 2" eyes with ⅝" bolts were just what I was looking for. I used ¼" stainless plate cut to 4x8" as backing plates behind the plywood on the top, and below the bed on the bottom. I finished the fix with bronze turnbuckles rated at 5 tons each sourced from a boat chandler. More overkill. Each of the turnbuckles' threaded sections has a cotter key to stop any loosening from vibration.
This fix has been bulletproof for 150,000 miles of rough treatment and when I had the camper off this year everything looked just like the day I installed it. No breaks, no bends, no pulled up sheet metal on the bed or broken plywood on the camper. I REALLY did not want a repeat of the 'camper breaking loose in the truck bed' experience and this has been accomplished.
You probably don't need to go to these lengths, but do make sure the hardware you have will survive the treatment you expect to give it and do something substantial to spread the load behind the mounts on the sheet metal and the plywood. The vibration and loads on the camper mounts are easy to underestimate.
In my own experience and reading here on WtW, I have not heard of anyone having issues with deformation or damage to the bed with a bolt down installation. But please share if you have seen this. If you are still worried, use 6 or even 8 bolts.
I obviously can't know the circumstances of every failure, but most seem to be related to either turn buckles loosening, which then leads to off axis and dynamic (ie higher G force) loads, or poorly installed eye bolts in thin sheet metal. Properly installed, neither of these should be a problem.
I personally don't think the torklift mounts are a great idea, unless you plan on removing the camper often. Besides being ugly as sin, if you plan on using your camper on narrow brushy roads they seem like magnets for getting caught up on brush and branches.
I don't think this is as big an issue as it may appear as you only hear about the problems, not the installations that are working well.
I obviously can't know the circumstances of every failure, but most seem to be related to either turn buckles loosening, which then leads to off axis and dynamic (ie higher G force) loads, or poorly installed eye bolts in thin sheet metal. Properly installed, neither of these should be a problem.
I personally don't think the torklift mounts are a great idea, unless you plan on removing the camper often. Besides being ugly as sin, if you plan on using your camper on narrow brushy roads they seem like magnets for getting caught up on brush and branches.
I don't think this is as big an issue as it may appear as you only hear about the problems, not the installations that are working well.
pvstoy
Senior Member
I agree with Rando. Based on my experiences with bolt through the floor mounting I never saw any damage or problems. Two slide ins on a custom Toyota 4x4 that saw plenty of rough washboard roads, a lot of off road crawling on rocks etc that caused flexing and twisting. Then the occasional unexpected airborne adventures. Even hitting a 500 pound cow elk at 60 mph and driving over it. So much twisting that the small block Chevy 400 engine intake manifold twisted enough to suck in the gasket between fuel and oil.
Originally FWC designed through the floor bolting, but changed because people wanted a convenient way of putting a camper on and off. Done properly bolt through is bullet proof.
As Andy and others have done with keeping the turnbuckle captive, use a friction interface and have the hardware properly mounted to the bed also have had good long term success.
The fast guns and what you are leaning toward are good, but no experience with them, as you just what we read. Choose your method for you and for your capabilities putting the camper on and off. Lining up bolt holes is not for everyone along with crawling under the truck. It is easy for me but maybe not for you.
Originally FWC designed through the floor bolting, but changed because people wanted a convenient way of putting a camper on and off. Done properly bolt through is bullet proof.
As Andy and others have done with keeping the turnbuckle captive, use a friction interface and have the hardware properly mounted to the bed also have had good long term success.
The fast guns and what you are leaning toward are good, but no experience with them, as you just what we read. Choose your method for you and for your capabilities putting the camper on and off. Lining up bolt holes is not for everyone along with crawling under the truck. It is easy for me but maybe not for you.
DavidGraves
Senior Member
- Joined
- Mar 24, 2016
- Messages
- 1,270
Hi Again Chet
By way of a reference for you, the folks involved in this thread are very experienced and very interested in you having success with mounting your camper.
The FWC factory, while stupid busy now, also has your very best success in mind.
As an example of this, a longtime FWC employee and enthusiast himself often chimes into these posts in a helpful and straightforward manner.
It is all gonna be good and you have met up with a good crowd of folks.
Feel free to PM me your contact info or ask for mine if you want to talk some of the mounting issues thru.
Again welcome,
David Graves
By way of a reference for you, the folks involved in this thread are very experienced and very interested in you having success with mounting your camper.
The FWC factory, while stupid busy now, also has your very best success in mind.
As an example of this, a longtime FWC employee and enthusiast himself often chimes into these posts in a helpful and straightforward manner.
It is all gonna be good and you have met up with a good crowd of folks.
Feel free to PM me your contact info or ask for mine if you want to talk some of the mounting issues thru.
Again welcome,
David Graves
From what you were describing earlier (needing lockers and a winch), I really don't think external tie downs will be a great option for you. One of our camping buddies uses these to tie down his Alaskan camper in his F250, he had issues with hitting rocks, even on the relatively mild (but rocky) White Rim Trail in Canyonlands and ended up bending one of them.
Only you know how you plan on using your camper. But for context, if you plan on driving roads where you could be concerned about leaving the camper jacks on, or having running boards, then these are probably not a great option as they stick down and out even further. As 'Mellow Mike' says, they are a good product, but better for the pavement:
https://www.truckcamperadventure.com/torklift-tie-down-installation-for-2013/
Only you know how you plan on using your camper. But for context, if you plan on driving roads where you could be concerned about leaving the camper jacks on, or having running boards, then these are probably not a great option as they stick down and out even further. As 'Mellow Mike' says, they are a good product, but better for the pavement:
https://www.truckcamperadventure.com/torklift-tie-down-installation-for-2013/
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