Electric Power- Lots of ?'s

Brad's Dad

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55
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Northern Wisconsin
Howdy,

I have 2004 Hawk shell model that has been modified on the interior by the previous owner. Cabinets were added to enclose the LP cylinder and LP heater pretty much where I think they came from the factory (left rear of camper). I plan to add a 110V outlet inside as I may be using it for an extended period of time in a campground with electricity next summer.

To get ideas on how to add electric power, I looked over the 4WC website pictures and it looks like new models have an exterior plug and an interior GFCI outlet.

Is there a converter unit to run accessories and charge the camper (and possibly truck) batteries or just to plug in other items inside? Both the converter and charging converter really aren't necessary I feel but would like to consider the options and how much work would be involved to install.

Short of modifying the interior to run wiring from the exterior plug to the interior outlet (or converter) how has this been done by others adding 110V power themselves?

Ideally. just one cut thru the exterior to add the power inlet in a location where the interior outlet would be located seems simplest. Are the inlet and outlet just one unit making this possible? Or is this all not as or more complicated than I imagine?

Thanks for the help in advance!

Fred
 
Howdy,

I have 2004 Hawk shell model that has been modified on the interior by the previous owner. Cabinets were added to enclose the LP cylinder and LP heater pretty much where I think they came from the factory (left rear of camper). I plan to add a 110V outlet inside as I may be using it for an extended period of time in a campground with electricity next summer.

To get ideas on how to add electric power, I looked over the 4WC website pictures and it looks like new models have an exterior plug and an interior GFCI outlet.

Is there a converter unit to run accessories and charge the camper (and possibly truck) batteries or just to plug in other items inside? Both the converter and charging converter really aren't necessary I feel but would like to consider the options and how much work would be involved to install.

Short of modifying the interior to run wiring from the exterior plug to the interior outlet (or converter) how has this been done by others adding 110V power themselves?

Ideally. just one cut thru the exterior to add the power inlet in a location where the interior outlet would be located seems simplest. Are the inlet and outlet just one unit making this possible? Or is this all not as or more complicated than I imagine?

Thanks for the help in advance!

Fred


How about running an extension cord through one of the slider panels on the floor? Much easier and cheaper than cutting a hole in the wall and putting in AC-DC converters etc. etc. If you are worried about DC recharging get a solar panel. That is probably less money and easier to hook up that a full shore power system.
You could also get a small battery charger for topping up the battery (If you don't want to run the truck). But we went for a full month this summer just on solar without input from the truck. If you plan to camp in full shade you may want to have the solar moveable so it can be in the sun.
 
How about running an extension cord through one of the slider panels on the floor? Much easier and cheaper than cutting a hole in the wall and putting in AC-DC converters etc. etc. If you are worried about DC recharging get a solar panel. That is probably less money and easier to hook up that a full shore power system.


Yes, I am with you. Specially after doing a search here and seeing how complicated converters have become for others (should have searched before posting-sorry)!

The extension cord thru the slider panel is what I am currently using but would like to pursue at least getting an interior outlet mounted (insect dust and weather control).

And no, I am not that concerned about battery recharging. Just thought it might be an easy plus if I were to go the converter route. And with my very simple owner built cabinet set up I doubt there would be room for a converter of any significant size to be mounted. But maybe they aren't all flush mounted to the interior of the camper?

So many questions, so little time!!

Fred
 
Yes, I am with you. Specially after doing a search here and seeing how complicated converters have become for others (should have searched before posting-sorry)!

The extension cord thru the slider panel is what I am currently using but would like to pursue at least getting an interior outlet mounted (insect dust and weather control).

And no, I am not that concerned about battery recharging. Just thought it might be an easy plus if I were to go the converter route. And with my very simple owner built cabinet set up I doubt there would be room for a converter of any significant size to be mounted. But maybe they aren't all flush mounted to the interior of the camper?

So many questions, so little time!!

Fred


I was thinking about insect and dust control. A simple through the wall plug with male on outside and female on inside would be easy to use but some work to construct.
A less easy to use but simpler to make system would be to punch an extension cord through some fabric that had velcro on the edges and place velcro around the slider door.
By the way we have the newer system with the external plug and built in AC-DC converter. I rarely use it. The converter is tucked well away and wiring even more so. I hate to think what would be involved if I ever had to work on it.
Better many questions and little time than lots of time and few questions.
 
I just completed my build out of a FWC Hawk shell unit. I mounted a weather proff box under the wing on the pasenger side with a plug and box inside behind the couch this required only a 1/2" hole through the wood for the electrical wire. On the out side I used calking between the box and the wood. I also ran wire mold around under the window to the driver side with another box and plug. Good luck and enjoy your FWC Hawk Larry....
 
Howdy,

I have 2004 Hawk shell model that has been modified on the interior by the previous owner. Cabinets were added to enclose the LP cylinder and LP heater pretty much where I think they came from the factory (left rear of camper). I plan to add a 110V outlet inside as I may be using it for an extended period of time in a campground with electricity next summer.

To get ideas on how to add electric power, I looked over the 4WC website pictures and it looks like new models have an exterior plug and an interior GFCI outlet.

Is there a converter unit to run accessories and charge the camper (and possibly truck) batteries or just to plug in other items inside? Both the converter and charging converter really aren't necessary I feel but would like to consider the options and how much work would be involved to install.

Short of modifying the interior to run wiring from the exterior plug to the interior outlet (or converter) how has this been done by others adding 110V power themselves?

Ideally. just one cut thru the exterior to add the power inlet in a location where the interior outlet would be located seems simplest. Are the inlet and outlet just one unit making this possible? Or is this all not as or more complicated than I imagine?

Thanks for the help in advance!

Fred


I'm upgrading a 2007 Eagle Shell. It only had lights and fantastic fan, and those have no fuse protection in the camper. I highly recommend you plan out all you might ever add to your camper in the way of electrical load, routing and handling it now. Buy parts and install them according to that. You will save money in the long run and hassle of reinstalling things. Here is kind of a summary of all that's involved in mine, you are talking about only a part of this.

A 110 volt outside connection will be mounted (you need a connector and converter plugs to match the connections in the campgrounds you go to Most campgrounds have high amp connectors and some have nothing a regular extension cord will connect to. You can get this from FWC or probably your local RV parts supplier. It's independent of whatever you wire inside the camper. In my case this was the external unit and a pigtail to adapt that plug down for using a extension cord and I got it from FWC. It has no wires, you supply, route and connect those separately. And you have to figure out where the frame of the camper is when cutting the hole.

The inside 110 volt plug you talk about is just a standard item from the electrical section of lowes or wherever, CFCI are available. Make sure to match entire circuit components to the ratings to whatever you plan to plug in. If all you are doing is that for 110 volt you can wire it directly from the outside supply plug, though I'd recommend having a fuse or circuit breaker in the line which is preferably near the outside plug, it only protects what's past it. Most campgrounds have fuses or circuit breakers on their hookups, but tend not to like it if you blow those too often.

Going beyond the simple 110 volt install gets complex quickly. And if you go beyond simply you end up with things like something that kills batteries frequently or whatever, which is extra ongoing cost.

The 110volt and 12 volt wiring on the Eagle will be managed by a distribution panel (Iota IDP-30) which holds circuit breakers and fuses to protect the wiring beyond that from burning in case of a short or such you should always protect the wire. Add a Iota 30 amp 110 volt to 12 volt converter that will be plugged into the distribution panel (the panel has a connection for it) to both supply 12 volt appliances with power via the distribution panel and contains a charger for the "house" battery bank I'm putting in the Eagle to supply power to the 12 volt appliances when not connected to shore power. This supplies up to 30 amps for either use. It's also a modern computerized charger which optimizes charging and the life of the battery bank. From there wiring is sent to each appliance, and to all 110 volt using units (like your plug). You can handle this stuff by lots of little bits here and there, but I decided the two unit system was more desirable.

You are right, the furnace and propane unit sounds like how they do the option for that on shells, look at their option list for the shell and clicking on the option brings up a photo of how it's installed. If you are adding more 12 volt items you would route the power for the furnace from your distribution system. And you may have to design and build more cabinets. It's probably now just hooked up to your 12 volt plug from your truck if you have no house batteries. (and may not have a fuse on the 12 volt, something you should check.)

My house battery bank will be rated 200 amp hours, is the center of self contained power supply source and supplies waeco fridge, Propex heater, lights, fantastic fan, inverter that supplies independent 110 volts, pump for water for the shower. A Microwave will run off a big 1500 watt inverter (can only be used for short times with this size setup). A smaller inverter will supply laptops and any other small load 110volts. Most camera battery charging I use 12 volt chargers. It connects through the distribution panel for all this.

In addition to the 30 amp charging from the shore power above the battery bank will be fed from the Ranger's alternator system. The sequence is a large circuit breaker feeds a voltage sensitive relay that when the voltage is high enough on the starting battery energizes the wire to the camper and it's house batteries. That protects the starting battery from discharge. I'm running 8 or 10 guage wire to the plug in the Ranger's bed (a Attwood trolling motor socket) and the plug on the camper's external 12 volt supply wire will plug into that.

When I add solar it runs from panels through a panel charging and load controller to the same battery bank. With relatively heavy wires to minimize voltage loss from the wire resistance. It independently charges the house battery setup with the controller monitoring and setting the charge voltage to keep the batteries maximally safe, and with maximum life.

Note all this adds up to several "lumps" that have to be put somewhere and add weight, it's not insignificant space usage. Ideally you try to limit wire lengths doing this and balance the weight. In my case I also have a water tank and pump to install. Propane tanks and fittings. Cooktop, tankless hot water with outside shower, and propane to the heater. Water tank and the heavy battery bank will be in a compartment on the floor and as far forward and toward the passenger side as possible. Propane and fridge end up on driver's side rear.
 
I certainly don't see why you couldn't do one just FWC does. The hole is easy, the wiring may be less so. I have to admit though, in the eight years I've had my camper, I've hooked it up to outside power a total of zero times. Your mileage may vary.
IMAG0104.jpg
 
I certainly don't see why you couldn't do one just FWC does.


FWC standardizes their camper electrical on 30 amps. A standard extension cord plug is not rated for 30 amps, so to be legal the system is set up with a larger plug system rated for 30 amps 125 volts. Then because few use such plugs other than campgrounds and such they supply a foot long adapter plug to adapt to standard extension cords. (in reality that means you should not draw the full 30 amps through the cord)

My primary use for the 110 volt plugin is to connect the camper at home to power the 30 amp converter to run appliances and charge the "house" battery bank. I'm virtually never at a campground supplying power.

Here is a composite photo of three views of the plug and adapter plug that FWC supplied to me this fall. Every one of the campers I saw there were using this plug if it had the 110volt connection. The plug was mounted in a circular hole in the aluminum frame on the driver's side. If you look in the dust thread at the photo I supplied there you can see the hole at the right edge of the photo. (note it's unlikely to be the same in a shell frame)
Composite.jpg
 
FWC standardizes their camper electrical on 30 amps. A standard extension cord plug is not rated for 30 amps, so to be legal the system is set up with a larger plug system rated for 30 amps 125 volts. Then because few use such plugs other than campgrounds and such they supply a foot long adapter plug to adapt to standard extension cords. (in reality that means you should not draw the full 30 amps through the cord)

My primary use for the 110 volt plugin is to connect the camper at home to power the 30 amp converter to run appliances and charge the "house" battery bank. I'm virtually never at a campground supplying power.

Here is a composite photo of three views of the plug and adapter plug that FWC supplied to me this fall. Every one of the campers I saw there were using this plug if it had the 110volt connection. The plug was mounted in a circular hole in the aluminum frame on the driver's side. If you look in the dust thread at the photo I supplied there you can see the hole at the right edge of the photo. (note it's unlikely to be the same in a shell frame)
View attachment 15613


Thanks everyone! Got some good ideas and know more about how others have their campers set up.

The factory plug-in ((thanks WaltK) looks quite deep to be mounted on the wall of my shell unless I could find a location behind the existing owner built cabinet which I doubt but will be looking into that.

The idea of a weather proof box (thanks Perry) sounds appealing from the simplicity standpoint and think the easiest mount location would be on the driver's side. I could use the same hole externally and internally hopefully. Anyone know the wall thickness in this location to see whether a one box unit could be made to work which would house the external plug in and an interior outlet in one unit? If a one box unit that would mount flush on exterior and interior isn't possible cuz of wall thickness dimensions, maybe I will try to figure a way to try and mount either in or out flush and the other not-flush if that makes sense?

And yes, I will take into account future electrical additions to my unit before proceeding.

Hopefully with 4WC's help I can locate where the frame is located so as not to compromise the structural frame integrity and make installation more difficult whatever route I take.

Fred
 
The factory plug-in ((thanks WaltK) looks quite deep to be mounted on the wall of my shell unless I could find a location behind the existing owner built cabinet which I doubt but will be looking into that.

The idea of a weather proof box (thanks Perry) sounds appealing from the simplicity standpoint and think the easiest mount location would be on the driver's side. I could use the same hole externally and internally hopefully. Anyone know the wall thickness in this location to see whether a one box unit could be made to work which would house the external plug in and an interior outlet in one unit? If a one box unit that would mount flush on exterior and interior isn't possible cuz of wall thickness dimensions, maybe I will try to figure a way to try and mount either in or out flush and the other not-flush if that makes sense?

And yes, I will take into account future electrical additions to my unit before proceeding.

Hopefully with 4WC's help I can locate where the frame is located so as not to compromise the structural frame integrity and make installation more difficult whatever route I take.

Fred


The factory plug in mounts in a hole that goes through the wall. It's not a surface mount item. The aluminum frame of the upper camper is made of 1" thick tubing with a thin aluminum skin plus the thin inside wood panel. So the plug, if put in the aluminum wall would extend it's backside little more than a inch inside the wall to where the wires would connect. Only the weather seal door of the plug unit shows on the outside when it's closed. It's a weatherproof unit and only sticks out about a inch on the outside. On the third photo of the composite the black gasket on the plug represents where the wall you mount it on goes.

Yes locating the aluminum frame tubing inside the wall is a challenge. And shell frames are not the same arrangement as fully equipped models.

Yes you will need room behind the wall of your inside unit to mount the wall plug as well. Typically it's a few inches, the plug is not left with bare wire exposed behind the wall so mounts in a box to enclose those wires. Normally those plugs are flush on the inside side.

You run wire between the two units, even if it's a few inches, they are not designed as a single unit.

Before going for a box that was described on the lower plywood make sure it will clear your truck bed when the camper is on. And that you can reach in to plug in your extension cord when at a campground. On my Eagle such a box would be awkward to get at and might require jacking up the camper just to access it to connect the power cord. Not a good location to my mind, though I will be putting the 12 volt plug inside the bed as it's only connected when you mount the camper.
 
RV stuff is not the only option, I prefer to use marine hardware when appropriate. I feel that typical RV stuff is pretty low quality and thus far I've not had that impression from any of the marine parts that I've used on a whole slew of different projects.
A search that should offer you some external connection options: westmarine.com/shore power
Our Phoenix was built with a plug-receptacle similar to this one: westmarine.com/charger inlet

On the converter/charger issue, our Phoenix has one of the much vilified Elixer power panel/chargers in it and I'll shortly be replacing it. The camper has no main 12VDC fuse or breaker at/near the battery, so there is an unprotected wire run from the right front corner to the left rear corner of the camper. That will be changed when I change the panel. There are enough satisfactory options for breakers/fuses that this part of the replacement isn't a concern. If I can find the budget for them I'll go with breakers for both the 12VDC and the 120VAC circuits. What to do about charging (solar's budget is ways out yet) is a concern. My temptation is to just use a standard trickle charger like one of the "Battery Tender" units.
 
The factory plug in mounts in a hole that goes through the wall. It's not a surface mount item. The aluminum frame of the upper camper is made of 1" thick tubing with a thin aluminum skin plus the thin inside wood panel. So the plug, if put in the aluminum wall would extend it's backside little more than a inch inside the wall to where the wires would connect. Only the weather seal door of the plug unit shows on the outside when it's closed. It's a weatherproof unit and only sticks out about a inch on the outside. On the third photo of the composite the black gasket on the plug represents where the wall you mount it on goes.

Yes locating the aluminum frame tubing inside the wall is a challenge. And shell frames are not the same arrangement as fully equipped models.

Yes you will need room behind the wall of your inside unit to mount the wall plug as well. Typically it's a few inches, the plug is not left with bare wire exposed behind the wall so mounts in a box to enclose those wires. Normally those plugs are flush on the inside side.

You run wire between the two units, even if it's a few inches, they are not designed as a single unit.

Before going for a box that was described on the lower plywood make sure it will clear your truck bed when the camper is on. And that you can reach in to plug in your extension cord when at a campground. On my Eagle such a box would be awkward to get at and might require jacking up the camper just to access it to connect the power cord. Not a good location to my mind, though I will be putting the 12 volt plug inside the bed as it's only connected when you mount the camper.


Well, it's time go to out in the back corner of the pole barn where the camper is stored and start looking for a spot for boxes. Inlet and outlet that can be accessed easily. Hmmmmmm. Based on my recollection that the LP cylinder housing and heater housing made by the previous owner are very compact around the units, this will be a challenge. But, no pain, no gain.

Thanks Thom for the tip on marine fittings. The thing I hate most is buying something inexpensive, going thru all the install procedures and having something break and having to redo what's been done before. Once is enough for any project for me.

Got some good ideas now and am prepared to attempt a plan. I think!!

Fred
 
RV stuff is not the only option, I prefer to use marine hardware when appropriate. I feel that typical RV stuff is pretty low quality and thus far I've not had that impression from any of the marine parts that I've used on a whole slew of different projects.

On the converter/charger issue, our Phoenix has one of the much vilified Elixer power panel/chargers in it and I'll shortly be replacing it. The camper has no main 12VDC fuse or breaker at/near the battery, so there is an unprotected wire run from the right front corner to the left rear corner of the camper. That will be changed when I change the panel. There are enough satisfactory options for breakers/fuses that this part of the replacement isn't a concern. If I can find the budget for them I'll go with breakers for both the 12VDC and the 120VAC circuits. What to do about charging (solar's budget is ways out yet) is a concern. My temptation is to just use a standard trickle charger like one of the "Battery Tender" units.


Note the plug you listed is rated only 15 amps. Depends on what you hook up in the camper, but FWC seems to have standardized everything at 30 amps, probably for a reason that has to do with the more elaborately equipped units. Otherwise I agree, I use a lot more marine stuff than auto or RV. And there are higher rated marine setups. Do note that even in marine stuff you can find some pretty low quality stuff.

I should repeat, it's not the cost of the charger that should determine which charger you use. There are plenty of poorly designed chargers that will cause a early death of your battery bank. And those batteries, if they have appropriate capacity for the job are the costly component. You want to go with a charger that's got a controller in it to optimize battery life. And preferably can put out enough charge to be worth using space on.

Note there are also differences in how long different batteries will last. The longer lasting ones cost a whole lot more, but may be a better deal. Look at how many recharges is the rated life of the battery you are choosing. My Northstar NSB100FT batteries arrived today, they are rated at 800 recharge cycles if you discharge them 50% each time and charge with a quality charge setup. 50% is the recommended discharge level for optimum battery life for deep charge batteries. By comparison wet cell deep charge batteries get somewhere in the 200-300 discharge cycles on the same pattern of discharge. The Northstar are very expensive but I found a very good deal for them on ebay. My other reason for going with these expensive batteries is they occupy a lot less volume for their ah rating, and they are equipped with vent tube attachments so I don't need to vent the compartment they are in and can put other things in with them. I'll find out if I've made a error over the years, but I doubt it, these batteries are quite popular in marine use. Batteries and how to set them up is another place to do some reading about how these are done in marine settings, especially the live aboard, round the world folks.
 
The sole 120VAC breaker on board is a 15A unit so no need for the higher current capacity versions in our case. It is important to keep an eye on that sort of thing as it can bite you badly.

My next step (have it, need to install it) is a Bogart TriMetric monitor. Once I have some idea of what our use/demands are, then I can size the PV panel & panel controller, and likely any more permanent 120VAC charger.
 

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