Electrical confusion...

[DonC]

After installing 300w of solar I've had two great trips, the first my camper has worked as expected in over three years of ownership.

Well, I just got back from a week trip where everyday there was something else.

Here are a few observations. I have a Trimetric so I can tell what's going on.

Charging with the truck running. A few times there was no increase in amps/hr, so no charging at all from the truck. Another time it spiked to 8 amps/hr and then over the course of 5 minutes I watched it count down to no charging. A couple of times I saw 2 - 3 amps/hr.

One of the weirdest things is I was sitting in the camper and unlocked my truck doors with the remote. I saw an immediate drop of 1 amp/hr when the cab light went on. Click again to lock the doors and the cab light goes out, and 1 amp increase. I could do this at will, cab light on and it drops, cab light off and it increases. Now that I'm home I can't replicate it.

Solar. Full mid-day sun and my solar charging light on my controller is not on, zero amps of charging. A few times I saw 3 - 4 amps/hr, and it should be 9+ amps.

Bottom line, after three days I was dead and frig not cooling.

Absolute total frustration.

All wires seem to be tight, all fuses ok. Any ideas on where to start?

 

[buckland]

I am no electrician but sure sounds like a bad ground.... Loose. On again off again with surges.. Check theconnections at the battery in camper first then all the nuts. Moisture in a cap can do it too. Good luck.... Don't feel alone.... I hate chasing electrical headaches!

 

[Wandering Sagebrush]

Don, it sure seems that you have an open connection somewhere in the system, or a really failed part. How good are your batteries?

Your keyless remote operation seems pretty interesting. I learned recently (yup, a few sparks) that the line to the camper is always hot. FWC puts the separator in the charging line, so I am going to assume that the truck battery is at a higher potential than the camper, and that clicking the remote puts more/less load on the truck, so that is being seen as a change in potential (voltage) by the Trimetric, hence the change in load.

Edit: Mulling a bit. If you have a bad battery(ies), the separator may have clicked off/failed, not allowing any current to get to your camper. That could explain no charging from the truck now. The battery could also be the source of the issue for solar. Maybe... I am just an old one wire electrician, so perhaps someone else could chime in.

 

[Advmoto18]

My 2 cents...

1. Unusual charging numbers AND the display backlight not illuminated during daylight sounds like a possible faulty (loose) ground.

2. Alternator charging. Sounds like the truck's voltage regulator and alternator output are normal and properly functioning. Alternator output is determined by the voltage regulator based on alternator RPM, how hot the alternator is and demand from truck's energized/activated electrical components/accessories.

Nothing strange at all about the problem going away once home! As a retired airline pilot, I can't count the number of times I had a problem airborne, and once on the ground, the maintenance technician was unable to duplicate the problem. Gremlins have a way of disappearing only to return when least expected.

 

[DonC]

I think the batteries were replaced last year by FWC

 

[brianjwilson]

My 2 cents...

1. Unusual charging numbers AND the display backlight not illuminated during daylight sounds like a possible faulty (loose) ground.

2. Alternator charging. Sounds like the truck's voltage regulator and alternator output are normal and properly functioning. Alternator output is determined by the voltage regulator based on alternator RPM, how hot the alternator is and demand from truck's energized/activated electrical components/accessories.

Nothing strange at all about the problem going away once home! As a retired airline pilot, I can't count the number of times I had a problem airborne, and once on the ground, the maintenance technician was unable to duplicate the problem. Gremlins have a way of disappearing only to return when least expected.

Oh the good old sideways look from the mechanic and the "could not duplicate" write up.


Curious, what is the voltage at your camper battery now? Some isolators and controllers will completely block out charging if the battery is discharged below a certain voltage. I don't know what you're using or if it's possible but just another thing to look at.

Definitely have a good look at all of the wiring connections. Make sure there are no bad crimps on the battery terminals or anything. It just takes one poor crimp somewhere to make a mess. Just because all of the bolts or wing nuts are tight, doesn't mean the wires are tight in the terminals.

 

[Wandering Sagebrush]

Please post the cause when you get it figured out.

After installing 300w of solar I've had two great trips, the first my camper has worked as expected in over three years of ownership.

Well, I just got back from a week trip where everyday there was something else.

Here are a few observations. I have a Trimetric so I can tell what's going on.

Charging with the truck running. A few times there was no increase in amps/hr, so no charging at all from the truck. Another time it spiked to 8 amps/hr and then over the course of 5 minutes I watched it count down to no charging. A couple of times I saw 2 - 3 amps/hr.

One of the weirdest things is I was sitting in the camper and unlocked my truck doors with the remote. I saw an immediate drop of 1 amp/hr when the cab light went on. Click again to lock the doors and the cab light goes out, and 1 amp increase. I could do this at will, cab light on and it drops, cab light off and it increases. Now that I'm home I can't replicate it.

Solar. Full mid-day sun and my solar charging light on my controller is not on, zero amps of charging. A few times I saw 3 - 4 amps/hr, and it should be 9+ amps.

Bottom line, after three days I was dead and frig not cooling.

Absolute total frustration.

All wires seem to be tight, all fuses ok. Any ideas on where to start?

 

[DonC]

Gladly! I've not had time to look at it today.

 

[Ethergore]

Its a little hard for me to follow online but I live in Redlands too. I wouldn't mind coming over and giving a hand and second opinion. I'm far from expert but have my own solar setup and lots of wiring bits. Two heads are better than one.

 

[DrJ]

Don,

A few ideas for you:

1- The battery isolator in your camper could have failed or occasionally not working. You can tell this is the case by measuring the voltage in your truck batteries and then checking your trimetric to look at the camper batteries. If the voltage is above the set point of the isolator and still no amperage is being transfered that would indicate a failure.

I've replaced mine once before. They do break, although fairly rare.

2- You may have a bad battery. I would recommend having camper and truck batteries tested. It could be that they are not taking a charge.

I think the two problems you stated are separate, but a grounding problem could also partially explain them as well.
Grounding faults can be very hard to find.

I'd start with #1 and #2 first and see what happens.

 

[DonC]

thanks for the suggestions. Ethergore - thanks for the offer, I'll send a PM.

 

[Ethergore]

I had a chance to help DonC this weekend and wanted to share my observations for an update in case anyone else has input.

Charging from the truck, in my observation, seems to be working correctly. Battery was at 65% of charge according to trimetric and was taking in between 7-10 amps with the truck at idle. I'm thinking the low amps Don has seen before likely occurred with battery closer to full charge which should reduce amperage to battery from the increased resistance. Like most of our rigs, there was significant voltage drop between truck and camper with 13.8 volts at truck battery and only 12.9 at camper batteries. This leads to pretty poor charging as battery gets closer to full charge.

Solar is where I found some concerns. During cloudy sun with 300 watts of solar Don was only getting 1.9 amps of charge. I checked each panel individually and found as follows:

Panel 1-Outputting 19.8 volts and when plugged into trimetric by itself had an output of 1.9 amps
Panel 2-No voltage output what so ever and no amps when plugged in by itself
Panel 3-Outputting 19.8 volts but when plugged into trimetric had no output of amps

To rule out bad wiring I used my Renogy Bendable panel and plugged into the two "bad" panels wiring inputs and had an increase of charging amps. Also with my panel plugged with panel 1 we saw a doubling to 3.8 amps as expected. Other wiring seems correct since we are seeing correct charging and monitoring parameters. Charge controller seems to be working fine since we get a charge. Trimetric seems fine because we are monitoring as expected.

In my opinion Don has 2 bad panels. This is a little concerning since many of us have these panels, including me. Don says he ordered his panels from Amazon and they do look different than mine that I picked up from Renogy in person. I am not suggesting anything but presenting all observations. Don says his packaging all looked authentic. He says he will email Renogy about our observations and see what they suggest. Its really hard to believe 2 panels would go bad when all 3 are not even a year old.

 

[Squatch]

I'm interested in this because I'm not far from ordering a couple of these panels.

Did you guys super check the connections and wiring at the panels? I've heard that the wiring interface right at the panels is a little flimsy.

You might try disconnecting a panel and putting a small load like a 12 volt fan or light right at the panel and then checking the output at the panel itself with a meter.

You can poke a dressmakers pin through the insulation into the wiring to get a point to attach a meter. One for each leg.

I'd also inspect each panel carefully for hairline cracks ect. Maybe it got over flexed in shipping ect.

 

[Casa Escarlata Robles Too]

In my opinion Don has 2 bad panels. This is a little concerning since many of us have these panels, including me. Don says he ordered his panels from Amazon and they do look different than mine that I picked up from Renogy in person. I am not suggesting anything but presenting all observations. Don says his packaging all looked authentic. He says he will email Renogy about our observations and see what they suggest. Its really hard to believe 2 panels would go bad when all 3 are not even a year old.


A year ago I ordered a 60w panel from Renogy and installed it. That brought my output to 105w total,but I was only seeing about 35w total even on a full sun period.
I removed both panels and checked them out separately. The new 60w panel was not putting out anything.
I called Renogy and talked to the service/return dept, they told me to return the old panel when the new one comes with the e-mail return slip.
They sent the new one out before I could even get the old one to the UPS driver.
Now the new one works great. Their return policy is great,just call and talk
with them.
Frank

 

[Ethergore]

I think I actually quadruple checked the wiring in every place I could. I opened the mc4 connectors and tested there but I did not pierce any of the wire farther back. I didn't want to expose the wire to the elements as these live on the roof. Plus if this is the problem it should be a warranty issue.

The panels did not appear cracked but I did not look closely as they are glued to the roof. I did jiggle the plastic where the wires exit the panel with no change observed. I doubt the panels were damaged during shipping as they worked for a period of time.

I did check panels directly at the main leads so I don't see a reason to test with a fan.

 

[DonC]

I can't thank Ethergore enough... After his help over the weekend I walked into typical Monday crises at work that have consumed me and may need to go to Nepal for a few days, but I will keep everyone posted so that you have feedback from your ideas and help.

 

[brianjwilson]

I hope you get it worked out.

I had been planning to try to use some sort of Velcro to secure mine, but finally convinced myself to just use the 3m adhesive you guys have used. 300 watts sitting at home, four wheel camper to be picked up Thursday morning.. You're making me have second thoughts now.

Has anyone removed a panel from the thin aluminum roof yet?

FYI it appears that the leads on the panels are now much shorter than they use to be. This could be why appearance has changed, some changes may have been made. Interesting observation though.

 

[DonC]

Renogy responded that both panels may be bad. Luckily I'm only an hour from their office and they invited me to visit and they will diagnose. Scary that 2 of 3 panels could be bad after 6 months.

I'll let everyone know.

 

[Casa Escarlata Robles Too]

Renogy responded that both panels may be bad. Luckily I'm only an hour from their office and they invited me to visit and they will diagnose. Scary that 2 of 3 panels could be bad after 6 months.

I'll let everyone know.

DonC,they are a great company and seem to stick by their product.As I said in my cane it was all over the phone and handled quicker that i had expected.
From the call to having the new panel on and operating,5 days.
I think that's pretty good service.
Will be interested to hear what they find out about your panels.
Frank

 

[DonC]

Ethergore (he has not divulged his name here so I will keep using using his very interesting screen name) had an idea of just snipping off the wire connector and gluing the new panels on top of the old panels. Not a bad idea. I'll ask Renogy about that too.