FWC changes over the years?

DTH

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Been a member here since 2014 but this is my first post. I’ve been looking at an older 2001 FWC and was wondering if there are design changes or different materials that would make it beneficial to wait and spend a little more for a newer model? Are some years better than others or are they all about the same?

Thanks!
 
DTH said:
Been a memeber here since 2014 but this is my first post. I’ve been looking at an older 2001 FWC and was wondering if there are design changes or different materials that would make it beneficial to wait and spend a little more for a newer model? Are some years better than others or are they all about the same?

Thanks!
Major changes. Our 2014 has the new synthetic lift panels, outside roof struts, rounded entry door, larger bed over, compressor fridge, solar, stronger tie-off points, front dinette, LED lights inside and out, AGM batteries, new under coating starting in 2015, upgraded appliances, 2018/19 choice of color campers with flat aluminum adhered to aluminum frame with 3M tape,
 
Hi, DTH. From what I have seen the campers have changed in both small, incremental amounts and in huge steps forward depending on technology availability and FWC's decision that a change makes sense. I have not seen a definitive model year change guide and I think some changes have happened mid year..
 
Also note, though, you can get the lift panels and gas-strut lift assists and add them yourself to an older camper. Pricing everything out is probably the biggest hurdle in deciding if the cost/time effort is worth it.

I had an old Fleet from the 80s and now have a new Fleet from 2016. Big difference in layout, particularly over the cab. It's a full bed up there!
 
Both FWC and ATC have made upgrades over the years. Enough to make me buy a new camper? If I were made of money maybe. I'm still satisfied with my old camper and the upgrades I've done to it over the years. Many of the items like solar, led lights, compressor fridge can be added on to any camper. Paint, upholstery and such can make an older camper feel newer. Structural upgrades are a bit different.
 
DTH, I'm assuming you are considering a 2001 because of the price. As you probably know by now, each pre-owned unit has it's own unique history, which IMO is a bigger determinate of your purchase, unless you are dead-set on certain features. I believe the exterior window flaps were discontinued beginning with 2005. Although rolling them up/down on the outside can be a pita, I enjoy the flexibility to create awnings with the flaps with the proper self-made supports.

Somewhere around 2011 (?) a one-piece roof came into production. Others can clarify the year for you. There is active discussion whether people have had oil-canning issues with the new roof, but overall I consider it a good feature however you may have to pay up to get into those model years.

Since you've been a member for 4 years you probably have seen various discussions on different features, so I see no reason to go into details on the many items that longhorn and subsequent posts have mentioned. But I can give you my two cents about my experience after I expand on my opening statement: each pre-owned unit has it's own unique history which includes how the unit was maintained, stored, modified, upgraded, climate where kept, etc, which I think should be a greater consideration in your purchase.

When I purchased mine I had decided I wanted an Eagle which were no longer being made and which limited my available pool of potential acquisitions. And I didn't want to upgrade my truck until I figured out if I really liked this new type of camping (I mostly backpacked). So my first and only purchase so far is my 2001 Eagle. From looking at other models/units of the same vintage, there seems to be little or no changes from the late 90's until about 2005 (window flaps gone). This coincides with the owner who bought the company (Tom) around 2001 and probably kept things as-is for several years until he was comfortable with making production changes (now there's new owner's since Nov 2017).

I paid $4,500 for the Eagle several years ago and paid an equivalent amount in factory-performed upgrades, plus some of my own. I have at least $10k into my unit. In retrospect would I have been better off with spending the $10k on a more recent model? Possibly, but I have had fun figuring out how to customize it to fit my needs, and it's still a work-in-progress whenever I'm not using it. If I ever sell it to upgrade to a newer model, I will have a wealth of knowledge to guide my next purchase decision that could have only been obtained by prior ownership.

In my case I was the third owner, and while the prior owners seem to take care of things, there were a couple of modifications that were a little shoddy. I ended up paying the factory to install a new one-piece roof, lift boards, exterior lifters, and roof fan. The old roof leaked and probably could have been saved with resealing, but it was disheartening to chase down one leak and then find another and another (water travels in some strange paths). I did not change the pop-up fabric when the roof was being replaced as it is still in good condition (and would have cost another $2k). All systems work, with 3-way frig and furnace and plumbing. Although I'm mechanically inclined and do all my own work, I wanted to factory to do it right instead of me trying to learn on the job (and I live within an hour of the factory).

Many model changes can easily be done on an older unit by the owner. LED lighting, undercoating, etc. A friend who posts on wtw also has replaced the exterior siding on portions of two units. In some cases I think these things can be better executed by the owner as it gives you the chance to upgrade materials, insulation, flooring, etc, which is why many people buy a shell model and start from there. I have upgraded the turnbuckle anchor points on my camper too. It was a relatively easy and low-cost upgrade with factory parts and self-installation. I'm in the process of adding light-weight flexible solar panels and maybe, possibly, I might upgrade to a new frig, but the 3-way seems to meet my needs when running on propane.

The only thing I don't like about my 2001 model is the way all the weight is placed on one side. The galley, frig, LP tank, water tank and furnace are all on the driver's side, with the other side being a couch. I think this is a common layout until later years. This is somewhat a concern on my prior-century small Tacoma, which I have offset to a major degree with air bags (higher inflation on that side). Still, I would rather have a more balanced unit. Until I'm ready to do some significant changes (or buy a newer unit), I'll live with it and drive cautiously around corners.

This has been a rather long-winded missive. Hope it helps. Short answer is consider the condition of the roof and pop-up fabric, and lift panels (since they are a pita to replace unless you remove the roof). And of course stress cracks and other items mentioned in the buying guides. Anything else can be upgraded/changed as needed, depending upon your ability. You have to do the cost/benefit analysis yourself each time you consider a unit for purchase. But don't discount the value of the experience of owning one. After you know what you like or dislike the rest falls into place.
 
I'm like Wildcat but I bought my older Eagle about 6 or 7 years ago. I basically stripped my Eagle down and rebuilt it. Some things I just cleaned, etc. but other things I replaced (counter tops, etc.). Some things needed fixing or replacing but the price was right. I've probably spent a total of $7500 but I pretty much have a new camper (still older technology but that's ok).

I've replaced the vinyl/fabric sides and inside roof (did the roof fabric myself), lift panels (ATC did that for me) and I've done the flooring, added large "spacers" and grade 5 eye bolts (camper and truck), electrical (LEDs, AGM battery and ACR, furnance electrical board, bed mattress, all the fabric covers, curtains, etc., etc.).

Soooooo, it was fun for me as I could do most of the stuff.

I'm sure the newer models have a better layout (furnace doesn't sit by the refrig?), stove not under the bed when extended, height (that I wish I had the extra 6" and if I'd been thinking when I did my fabric and lift panels I would have had them raise it), one piece roof (not sure that's better), bench seat (nice storage but not ideal if you have to sit in the camper for very long and with a dog, that's her spot).

For me, I'm happy with the older generation but the new units sure are nice. Just not nice enough for me to spend the extra $'s.
 
I'm trying to think of design / option changes you may want to look into in making your decision.

- A deadbolt lock on the door was optional in 2001 (my 01 Hawk shell doesn't have one)
- The door latch on my 01 didn't have two cylinders (i.e., the second one is a small deadbolt). (Replacement is very easy.)
- Extended cabover was optional in 2001. My 01 has the option and it gives me a 48" cabover. I'm not sure of the standard size but 30" sticks in my mind.
- The cabover floor on mine is vinyl-clad plywood (both sides of the plywood) while I believe modern units have some type of engineered plywood with a plastic surface. Some owners of the former have had problems with the vinyl peeling from the underside of the cabover. (And I've seen a report or two of cracking of the plastic surface at screwheads on the latter).
- My 01 has a painted Douglas fir plywood floor pack while modern units use a skid-resistant plywood developed for docks and other wet environments.
- The door frame of my 2001 is rectangular while modern ones have a curved top.
- Screen doors were optional in 2001.
- The 01 may have a manual water pump/faucet at the sink while modern units use electric water pumps.
- My lift panels are vinyl-clad Baltic birch while modern ones are composite.
- The windows in the vinyl soft-sides have storm flaps before the mid-2000s. Some people like storm flaps, some don't. In 2001 the velcro strips for those flaps were installed with an adhesive backing (and then sewn through). Unfortunately, the adhesive didn't have a high-enough operating temperature and we often see staining from melted adhesive around the windows in campers of this era. (Adhesive remover can take care of most of it.)
- My 01 doesn't have a powered roof vent. I believe the roof was pre-wired for it but I haven't looked.
- The 01's roof wouldn't have been pre-wired for solar (If in doubt, you should be able to tell by looking at the wires coming down from the roof at the front lift-panel. If you just have one pair, it's not wired for solar). Also-- an 01 wouldn't have a port for a portable solar panel.
- There were no lift-assist struts on an 01.
- The roof on the 01 was a two-piece, screwed-down one. Modern FWC ones are one-piece attached using very-high-bond tape.
- Lights were incandescent automotive-style bulbs in 01, now LED (but those can easily be replaced)
- My 01 has a one-piece front window. I'm not sure if opening ones were an option at the time.
- I believe bed slide-outs were an option in 01 as mine appears to have been built by a previous owner.
- Mechanical thermostat in 01, now they're digital. (Easily replaced)
- Horizontal 20-pound propane tank on an 01, twin 10-pound verticals now.
- An 01 propane tank may need to be re-certified to get it filled. Check date stamp on tank.
- LPG/CO detector may be out of date.
- Water tank: May be mounted up on the driver's side 'wing' behind the cabinets with a drain exiting under the side of the camper. Modern ones are floor-mounted with drain in back.
- Plumbing setup on modern FWC allows winterization by draining hot-water tank back to main water tank and then out.
- Furnace draw most is likely higher on the 01.
- Truck-bed plug/receptacle changed from Marinco to an Attwood trolling motor one in the early 2010s (and of course owner-installed ones could be different). Not sure what was used as far back as 01.
- 01 may have come with an icebox instead of a fridge (or in my case, neither)
- More layout options (side-dinette, front-dinette, for example) in modern units
- Mine doesn't have shorepower or a converter. I've read that FWC did a short run of Elixir converters back in the early 2000s and within a few months decided they weren't good. Hopefully that one has an Iota DLS-30 converter (if it has one at all). But even if it does, it may not have an IQ4 smart controller. I don't know if an IQ4 could be added as far back as 01. Iota also makes a model with an internal IQ4. I believe FWC switched to those in something like 2015.
- AC and DC power distribution panels have changed over the years. Now using Blue Sea Systems units. But the older ones should still be fine.
- Camper-side tie-downs in 01 were eyebolts attached to what are called 'elevator bolts'. I found several of my elevator bolts pulled partially through the plywood. I replaced them with Grade-8 bolts through backing plates and FWC did something similar for a while. Then they switched to three-bolt stainless-steel brackets (with a backing plate).
- Back in 2001 FWC wasn't using a sealing tape under the jack brackets or siding trim, which led to corrosion problems.
- FWC also wasn't using sealing tape under the roof trim in 2001. I had a roof leak which I eventually traced to the failed silicone sealant used to seal the gap at the top of the roof trim. Modern units have a sealant tape under the trim and are less likely to leak when that sealant deteriorates.
- Jack brackets in 2001 were one-piece steel. Those are different length and different screw-hole pattern than the later two-piece ones. Both rust easily. FWC offers an aluminum jack bracket option but it's not a direct substitute for the one-piece ones. The steel ones can be re-habbed but screw-heads tend to snap off during removal and become a problem to remove. (Ten of the 48 screws broke off during my bracket re-hab)
- Battery installations varied in 01, including the option not to have one at all. The unit may or may not have truck-to-camper wiring and a battery isolator. Also, some owners chose to charge the battery off the truck's trailer-wiring connector... possibly leading to insufficient charging.
- The vinyl soft-sides material on my 01 is still in good condition. I've fixed a few pinholes but I'm actually kind of surprised how good it is.
- My 01 didn't have bumpers to keep the camper away from the truck bed's front end.

(Holy frijoles. I started typing with three or four things in mind and all that came out!)

.
 
I'm thankful I bought a project 1979 Grandby and was able to build it just the way I want it. If you are handy, sometimes it's better to buy something older and build it the way you want it.
 
2001, measure the tailgate area to be sure it fits. Some of the older Hawks were too wide for newer trucks. If going in a Chevy may need a notch.
 
Old Crow, I'm very impressed with your comprehensive list. It would be a great start for expanding the wikipedia page with a FWC section as Bill D suggested. The factory doesn't even provide a comprehensive list of model year options and changes because prior owner Tom indicated that documentation was frequently spotty and kept on different media during the years such as paper file cabinets and employee memories. The new owners are upgrading the current production and documentation process but have no reason to go back in history. Even for people who currently own a FWC it is sort of a moot point, so it's really just a labor of love for somebody who wants to try it.

My 2001 had a factory power roof vent, but it had a vertically mounted motor with a domed fan cover on the roof. I upgraded to a new fan (which is available on newer model years) that uses a flat roof cover because I needed an extra inch clearance to get into my garage.

The eagle also had only one roof vent. I think that was true for all model years of eagles but I'm not sure when a second roof vent became available on the larger models. I was able to install a second vent over the sleeping area. The factory was initially doubtful there would be enough room, but they did the installation and all is good.

Mine also has the slide-out couch which was factory installed. Sort of a pain to deal with, and I just removed it yesterday to reconfigure that area.
 
Thanks, Wildcat, but I don't think my info is up to wikipedia standards. What would I cite as sources? "Old Crow's sometimes-creaky memory"?, "Stan said it on WtW"?

Also- the info is mostly about the 2001 model year as compared to modern (whatever that means) practice at FWC. I don't have nearly enough info about what was happening in other model years.

Having said that, I don't disagree with the idea that it would be great to have easily-accessible info on older model years. At this point the only way I know to find it for a particular year is Google searches and WtW is by far the richest source of info.

.
 
For comparison:

We have a 2007 (build year) FWC Keystone. Previously we had a 1984 FWC Keystone.

I recall Terry Budd at FWC telling me that 2007 was either the first or second year of pre-wire for solar. Ours had the pre-wire and an aluminum plate in the ceiling but no junction box.

Our roof is two piece. We have had no issues with it.

All the cabinets and the end lift panels have the faux wood grain paper over the plywood (water damages it easily - as in a few wipes with a wet sponge). The 1984 Keystone cabinets had similar faux wood grain paper over particle board (paper degraded and came off when trying to wash it with a wet sponge and the particle board broke down). I think that faux wood grain is poor quality. It looks good when new but scuffs easily and breaks down easily from contact with any liquids.

The popup side material is the Grey vinyl with fold down solid, and clear panels inside. It is holding up well. The pop-up material in the 1984 Keystone was a thinner tan material with a fuzzy interior "insulation" layer bonded to it. It aged over time in the sun and started cracking and leaking. Also the interior surface stained easily.

There are two roof vents in the 2007, one of the sink which is a multi-speed reversible fantastic fan and one manual vent the cab over bed. There were two un-powered roof vents in the 1984 Keystone. All of the vents have flat metal lids.

The water tank in the 2007 is against the forward bulkhead and centered under the window. In our 84 Keystone it was under the refrigerator.

We have a IOTA DLS-30 Charge controller. It did not come with the IQ-4 so I added the plug in IQ-4. The 84 Keystone had a Newmark controller as I recall.

There is no built in toilet or inside shower in the 2007 camper and the old camper did not have a toilet or shower. However, we have hot water and an outside shower in the new camper but the old camper did not have hot water or a pressurized system it had a manual pump sink faucet..

Over cab bed floor looks to be vinyl over plywood. The over cab bed floor in the 84 Keystone was particle board (and it eventually failed).

The 2007 over cab bed has a slide out to make it a "queen" size. The 1984 Keystone had a fold up extension with hinge line above the front window and aluminum fold down legs to support it.

The 2007 couch has a roll over back. The roll over fram is sturdy and attached to the floor pack. The 1984 Keystone had a back that was detachable (actually just sat in place with two aluminum legs that folded down to support in when the couch was converted to a bed

The lift panels look very similar in both campers.

IN the 2007 we have interior lift struts on the front only (no rear lift struts). The older camper had no lift struts.

The camper has a FIamma awning on the passenger side and 4 steel 2-piece lift brackets (one on each corner).

I think the floor pack in 3/4" thick plywood with some kind of brown stain on it. The floor pack on the 84 Keystone was also 3/4" plywood. It was degrading due to water damage when we sold it.

The 2007 Keystone has several 1" wood strips crewed to the plywood floor which lifts it off of the truck bed and helps keep water off of the bottom of the floor pack.

Rear door is rectangular and we have a screen door as well. The old camper also had a rectangular door but no screen door.

The side windows on the 2007 slide open. The large window on the side is an emergency escape window. The old camper had louvered windows on the sides that opened.

The front window in the 2007 is fixed - cannot be opened. The front window in the old camper was a sliding window and was handy for being able to reach into the cab of the truck from the camper.
 
This info used to be listed on the FWC website which was very handy...but I don't see it anymore. Did they take it down with the last website redesign or am I just missing it?
 
Lots of info on the older campers has been omitted from the latest update of the Four Wheel Campers website.

For example, the manuals for the components in the old campers are gone (e.g. Instamatic refrigerator, pre-IOTA 110v to 12v power controller, etc) however many of these manuals can still be found elsewhere on the internet by searching on the name and model number.
 

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