How to Heat Water Tank

I just bought two pair of heavy duty tire chains (one specifically for off road) and am having a front limited slip installed Wednesday. I downloaded my GPS route on my computer, tablet and GPS and have the appropriate maps. I've got a route that is 80-90% off road, with fuel stops every 150 - 200 miles for an approximately 700 - 800 mile total. The snow level just dropped on my side of the Cascades, but I'm sure it'll be back up again. On the east side I'm guessing it will be colder but drier. I'll be ready though for one to two feet of snow the entire way. I hope to leave Nov 20 or 21 and be back a week later, with maybe one stop at a campground in the middle to have a plug in for the batteries and laptop/GPS, etc.
 
I talked to FWC and if you run the heater on low, 44 degrees, your water storage and lines should not freeze. No 100% surety, but heating the inside of camper even in sub-zero temps should protect the plumbing. How much battery power and propane is needed I have no idea. We are getting the twin battery pack with double solar panels.

Condensation I assume can be controlled with vent fans and heater should not produce vapor inside the camper as it is vented to outside. Combustion vapors can't enter the camper.

Has anybody actually used their Hawk, with a heater, in sub-zero temps and with water on-board in plumbing and storage tank?

Surely somebody must have first hand experience to address this question.

Appreciate the discussion.

Phil
 
On our last trip we had Temps in the 30's. We set the thermostat at 60 and it kicked on and off all night. Interesting thing in the morning there wasn't any frost or condensation. Fluke?? I don't know.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Wander The West mobile app
 
I'll have the thermostat set at whatever the lowest setting is to keep the interior from freezing. I have slept comfortably in the teens while tent camping. I figure half way through the trip, probably day three, I'll hit a campground with electrical and plug in to top off the batteries and if I need to refill the propane, I'll do that when stopping for gas. I don't imagine I'll run out of propane or battery, but we'll see :) What I did in my previous trailer was use one propane bottle (edit: tank) and when it ran out switch over. That way I knew roughly how much propane I had left (at least when I hit the half way point). I assume I can do that in the Hawk.
 
Ace,

Sounds like you have it covered. Have a great trip and I am looking forward to your report.

Snowing out here now; seems winter has arrived.

Phil
 
Ace! said:
I've got a route that is 80-90% off road, with fuel stops every 150 - 200 miles for an approximately 700 - 800 mile total. The snow level just dropped on my side of the Cascades, but I'm sure it'll be back up again. On the east side I'm guessing it will be colder but drier. I'll be ready though for one to two feet of snow the entire way...
Click to expand...
Well, be careful. I too am known for pushing the envelope on four wheeling in snow. In fact, we hit Moab, UT last year over Thanksgiving with our Jeep Rubicon. I mean, hey, how much snow can there be in the desert? Right?

So we just were having a ball and entered a slot canyon running down to the Colorado river. It quickly turned into a slalom run with huge dropoffs. And 4WD even with the Rubicon's low range and locked in don't work too good DOWNHILL on steep ice/snow on a 8 to 10 degree slope!

So I literally backed out for three miles uphill. There wasn't room to turn around. I still get the shakes thinking about it. So drifted snow and ice can humble just about anything on wheels. Have fun and be careful! (There are worse things than freezing up your water!) :)
 
I get it Durango. I've been in those situations. I built a TJ before the JK came out and was part of a 4x4 club that did snow runs. You're absolutely right though, things can go sideways real quick in adverse conditions. I once almost slid in the snow into a reservoir. Very humbling to stop just shy of sliding off a snow bank through the ice and under enough water to probably never be recovered. I now am much more cautious, but still like to make sure I push the envelope when the Grim Reaper isn't looking.
 
I'm not endorsing this product in any way, but happened to came across these tank heaters.
http://www.annodindustries.com/shop/holding-tank-heaters
The smallest heater supposedly pulls 4.1 amps when it's on. I believe their regulated to 44 degrees or so?
If you have a good charging system it would be ok to run when traveling, but I would be much less worried about the water tank freezing than I would the water lines touching exterior surfaces, or the exterior shower hook up.
 
http://www.wanderthewest.com/forum/uploads/gallery/album_957/gallery_4974_957_133262.jpg
It's not a water heater but it prevents the pump from freezing. It's a swamp cooler valve cobbled to some hardware store bits. If it's going to freeze I just reach into the cabinet and open, and then re-close, the valve before going to bed. This allows the water in the pump to drain into the tank which has enough thermal mass that it hasn't seemed prone to freezing. We don't have a furnace so this has been a real boon.
 
Shady,

Very inventive and nice photo. Looks like a minimal mod for some peace of mind...and it do get cold in Bishop! How much water drains down?

Good work.

Phil
 
I don't winterize my camper since here in Sacramento it doesn't get cold enough to worry about it. My winter trips are usually just overnighters and I've never had an issue with the pipes freezing over a short duration. I think if I were to do a week long trip in freezing temps I'd drain the pipes.
 
Wallowa said:
Shady,

Very inventive and nice photo. Looks like a minimal mod for some peace of mind...and it do get cold in Bishop! How much water drains down?

Good work.

Phil
Click to expand...
Not very much as the lines aren't that big nor long. We do a lot of winter Death Valley trips and, as you say, the desert can get pretty cold. We had to replace the pump once when it froze up before I did the mod, fortunately we were at home. I had just forgotten to empty the tank and run the pump to empty it. That's what inspired the drain valve. Now I can empty the pump without emptying the tank, and I really don't want to empty the tank in the middle of Death Valley. I'd get thirsty.
 
I did have my water system freeze up one night during an elk hunt but that was because I ran out of propane in the midle of the night and when I woke up it was 12 degrees inside -5 outside. I switched bottles and got the heat going then warmed some old coffee that was on the stove to pour on the pump to get it working. No damage done to anything but now I make sure I have enough propane to last the night. On that same trip my thermostate failed so for a day or two I had to clip the wires together to run the heat. I now have replaced it with a digital and now can run the heat even lower which works great
 
First our experience. We've done a multiday trip in British Columbia mid winter with the water system charged. We left the furnace on a low and the cabinet doors open around the sink when away from the camper. No problems with freeze up. Temps were probably 20 to 35 deg. Just finished camping for a few days over New Years in the Warner Mountains of Northern CA and things took a different turn. Temps were as low 0~-5 deg F with highs of 15 deg F. We left the heat on low when not in the camper and kept the heat around 60~65 deg f when in the camper. This time the water line exiting the water tank froze. I think it froze where the line exits the water tank into the compartment where the power cable comes in though this area is not easily accessible. We melted a bunch of snow to make up for the lack of water.

For us, we use our Fleet Camper for backcountry skiing trips so having access to our water system really helps with managing space in the camper. When you figure clothes, skins, ski boots, winter clothing, etc there's not a lot of extra room for car boys when you're on the road for a week or so.

Like the original person's post I'm looking for ideas to better protect the water system from cold temps. Thoughts I have are to place closed cell foam between the water tank and outside walls, heat tape the water lines, install a light bulb in the compartment where the water line exits the water tank, and heat tape on water tank. Any other ideas others have done?
 
Just tossing out an idea; if the water in the tank is warm it will take that much longer to freeze it. Perhaps a liquid to liquid heat exchanger to couple it to the engine's coolant? There are lots of considerations in the proposal and it's not going to be for everyone, but it may work for some.

What I'm thinking of is something like one of these:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#heat-exchangers/=10iwct7
35115kp1l.png


or perhaps one of the Helton heat exchangers:
http://www.cruiseroutfitters.com/helton.html

hotwaterunit.jpe
 
I recently bought some bayonet mount LED lights with built in aluminum heat sinks. They draw nothing in amps, but the heat sinks get hot enough to sizzle a wet finger. Too hot for a plastic dome light. Maybe a few of them inside the cabinet.

cwd
 
Great thinking outside the box! Heat exchanger is indeed intriguing; but I am always leery of plumbing in potential leaks from my engine cooling system. They do look very simple and should be reliable. If you run your motor up to temp and assuming you heat the FWC water tank to at least your thermostat temp that should prevent freezing for an 'undetermined' time. Other issue is how much pressure the heated water would create in the camper water system.

LED...diodes, I forgot they can generate heat...for this application fire is my only trepidation...

Someone mentioned using "heat strips"..I have an 'automatic' heat strip 3 feet long that generates 21W @ 120V/.2 amp if I read it correctly...since we do not get our Hawk until Feb, I have no idea if the electrical system [inverter] will support this heating wire. Longer wires are available but use more amps.

Phil
 
Damn...another bright idea...agitate the water with bubbles and lessen the freezing point...like moving water in a stream. Correct?

Test this and post your results! :D

Phil
 
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