Low Temp LiFeP04 and Interview with battleborn CEO

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makalutoo

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I stumbled across this interesting interview with the CEO of battleborn batteries, he really knows his stuff!



I am in the market for a lithium battery and I am interested in some of the newer low temp batteries that have internal heaters. I see a couple of different manufactures offer them. Relion, LifeBlue, maybe Battleborn? Anybody know of any other ones?

The video talks a-lot about low temp charging. I thought that charging below freezing was a hard no on LiFeP04 batteries, but battleborns will charge down to 25F.

Anyway, I'll be in the lesser 48 this winter, so it is a great time for me to get a new battery, since shipping batteries to Alaska can be difficult. I am planning on using one of my old batteries as a starting battery for my Tacoma, since it was struggling last winter. Plus it will be good to remove battery weight from the camper.

Here is some info from the Lifeblue site on how the heating works.

+++++
https://www.lifebluebattery.com/ewExternalFiles/Low Temperature.pdf
Irreversible damage can happen to any Li-ion battery that is charged when frozen.
LiFeBlue PCLT and HCLT model batteries have an internal heater and controller that is managed by the BMS.

How It Works
When you begin to charge the battery and the cell temperature is below 26°F, charge current is diverted to the heater and cell charging is inhibited. The Event page will display "Low-Temp when charging”.
After the cells reach a safe temperature to begin charging, current is redirected to the cells.
No current for the heater is taken from the battery during Standby or Discharge modes.
Each battery in parallel requires a minimum amount of power for the heaters.
The heater will attempt to power on but if current is too low, the BMS will start a 5 minute delay and then retry.

This will continue until the following power levels are available to each battery:
12V100Ah: 78W (about 6A)
12V150Ah: 96W (about 8A)
12V200Ah: 128W (about 10A)
12V300Ah: 192W (about 15A)

Standard Batteries
All other LiFeBlue Battery models have freeze protection built in. If the cells are below 26°F, charge current will be inhibited until the cell temperature is safe to recharge.


Thanks for all of your input!
 
I got a response from battle born:

Thanks for reaching out to us and for your interest in our new products.

At the moment there is no specific release date but there has been talk about
getting them out this winter. I would be surprised if they didn't come out before the
end of the year.

Let me know if you would like to use our standard batteries with the external heating wraps...

I wonder how the external blanket ties into the battery management system? I did not see any info on their website that describes it at all. Does anyone use a lithium battery with external heating for the winter?

Thanks
 
Here is a link that I just found to their heating pad.

After a quick read of the description, it does not look like it is an ideal solution for me at all, since it runs off of an external tempurture switch. I like the idea of internal heaters that run when the core battery temp is too low.

https://battlebornbatteries.com/product/heat-pad-for-bbgc2/?afmc=rvt_01%2F

This is a heat pad that provides uniform heat and is sized for our BBGC2 batteries.
It has adhesive that sticks directly onto the case, wrapping around the battery. It runs off of 12V. This can be off the battery itself, or another 12V source, like engine alternator. It takes a total of 30W of power, when it is on, so it can run for about 40 hours off of a full battery without a charging source.
Included with the heat pad is a temperature switch that turns the pad on when the temperature falls below 35 degrees Fahrenheit or 1.6 degrees Celsius, and stays on until the temperature rises above 45 degrees Fahrenheit or 7 degrees Celsius. This ensures that the heat pad is only on when needed.
Free Ground Shipping in the US.
Email us info@battlebornbatteries.com for more information or technical questions.

Here is a link to another forum that has a whole thread on this issue. I will gladly delete it if it is against the rules to post it. It is a long thread but has some interesting discussion, i skimmed most of it.

https://diysolarforum.com/threads/lifepo4-heating-pad-for-cold-temperatures.5/
 
Thanks Dave, I checked their website out and it does not appear that they have a low temperature charging solution. Glad to see another lithium battery option.

Take Care,
Chris
 
Just build your own. I built one 120ah, bms, etc. for about $375. There's a thread in the forum somewhere. It doesn't have the "heating" part though :-(
 
I'd like to add heating to my BBorns. Temps are below freezing now, and when the camper sits for a few weeks without using it, it sure would be nice for the solar to be topping up the camper/truck batts....
 
Vic if you are home just put a space heater on them to get them up to 35-40 degrees and let the solar charge them. If you are not using them I would not keep them topped off. My understanding is they do better at about 50-60% charge when being idle.... Others might know more about how the cold weather would affect that:)
 
That would work, but automation is a wonderful thing. Right now my batteries are at -1*C. If I use my remote starter on the truck I will be feeding 30A into the batteries, which is not good. It would be wonderful if the truck started, and the charge current went into a heating pad for the batteries until they were +3*C.
 
I have a small 700 watt electric oil-filled space heater. It has a simple thermostat. I set the temp to keep the camper about 35-40 degrees F and leave it plugged into the internal AC outlet. I open the battery compartment and those doors where water pipes are located. I leave it on with the camper plugged into shore power. This to ensure that my Battleborne batteries remain in the chargeable range. With the main power switch off, the Iota will not be used to charge the Battleborne batteries.

With the top down, there is only a small space to heat. The oil filled heater never gets all that hot so no fire hazard. If the camper is moving, I need to keep the heater from falling over so I use a large milk crate and place th heater within the crate. A couple of blocks of wood keep the heater from wobbling.

Most of the big box stores or local Ace HW or other HW stores carry these heaters. The price of the smaller units is usually well under $100US. The heat will also protect your plumbing in case you didn't get all the water out.

Paul
 
Can't you take the fuse out of the charging circuit and throw a small solar panel on them? A couple amps should not damage them at 32ish degrees. Sorry I'm only good at …fahrenheit :)
 
I was concerned about the low temperature charging when I first designed/installed my LiFePO4 battery. I added a thermal switch that would shunt the power from the solar panels into a battery heater, until the temperature was above 5C, then switch the solar panels back to the solar controller. In the end, I never ended up using it, so I eventually removed it to reduce complexity. However I did leave the heaters installed with a simple standalone thermostat if I ever wanted to use them.

As with most things, it turns out that the issues with low temperature charging of lithium is a continuum, based on the temperature and the rate of charge. It is not like everything is great when the temperature is > 0C and goes to pot when the temperature is < 0C. At low charge rates (< 0.1C) and with a lower charge voltage (less than 3.5V per cell or 14V per pack) there is insignificant harm done charging down to at least -10C.

For my setup, I have my BMS set to stop charging at -5C, my maximum charge rate is 0.1C and I only ever charge to 13.8V. I leave the battery connected all winter (in CO day time winter highs are usually ~5C, but we will have weeks with highs below -5C), and the battery seems to stay around 80% SOC and I have not seen any capacity fade over 3 years.

For colder locations (ie Vic out on the frozen prairies) then either disconnect the battery to keep it about full or if you expect some warmer days, just rely on the BMS to stop charging when it is too cold.
 
rando said:
I was concerned about the low temperature charging when I first designed/installed my LiFePO4 battery. I added a thermal switch that would shunt the power from the solar panels into a battery heater, until the temperature was above 5C, then switch the solar panels back to the solar controller. In the end, I never ended up using it, so I eventually removed it to reduce complexity. However I did leave the heaters installed with a simple standalone thermostat if I ever wanted to use them.
Click to expand...
Can you share a few more details on this thermal switch and how you had it wired in?
 
The question I have wondered about is, would it be best to have the lithium battery charged up, then remove it from the camper and bring indoors to store over the cold months, since it’s said that lithium batteries will keep a charge for a very long time? Or is it okay to leave them outdoors, but prevent any charging that might go on in very cold weather below freezing?
 
It was this:
https://smile.amazon.com/Taiss-Temperature-Thermostat-Controlled-Controller/dp/B079CBXJVN

Take the +ve wire from your solar panels and wire that to the common terminal. Then wire the NO terminal to the +ve solar input of your solar controller and the NC to the heater on the batteries. The other end of the battery heater goes to the -ve solar panel output, in parallel with the solar controller. When the battery temperature is lower than the set point (say 0 C), then the power from your solar panels is going into the battery heater. When the temperature gets to a degree or two above 0C, the thermostat switches, returning the power to your solar controller. While a bit clunky, I liked that one because it uses no power and the contacts are rated at 16A.
 
PokyBro said:
The question I have wondered about is, would it be best to have the lithium battery charged up, then remove it from the camper and bring indoors to store over the cold months, since it’s said that lithium batteries will keep a charge for a very long time? Or is it okay to leave them outdoors, but prevent any charging that might go on in very cold weather below freezing?
Click to expand...
Most drop in LiFePO4 batteries and stand alone BMS already have a low temperature charge protection function built into the battery. They won't accept a charge if the temperature is too low, and they won't be damaged. There is no reason to bring them inside.
 
rando said:
It was this:
https://smile.amazon.com/Taiss-Temperature-Thermostat-Controlled-Controller/dp/B079CBXJVN

Take the +ve wire from your solar panels and wire that to the common terminal. Then wire the NO terminal to the +ve solar input of your solar controller and the NC to the heater on the batteries. The other end of the battery heater goes to the -ve solar panel output, in parallel with the solar controller. When the battery temperature is lower than the set point (say 0 C), then the power from your solar panels is going into the battery heater. When the temperature gets to a degree or two above 0C, the thermostat switches, returning the power to your solar controller. While a bit clunky, I liked that one because it uses no power and the contacts are rated at 16A.
Click to expand...
thanks for that rando. I wonder if this would work:

1) Since I have an all Victron setup, I am inclined to use the relay output on the BMV712, which uses the temperature probe already installed onto the +ve terminal of the battery bank.

2) That relay would fire a SPDT 80A relay I have on hand - to do the heavy lifting. It would sit between the positive terminal of the battery bank and all the various charge sources... DC-DC charger, MPPT output, Victron AC/DC shore power charger.

I'm wondering about surges that might happen during switching from "run the battery warmer" to "charge the batteries". Do we need to worry about that?
 
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