More 3-way Woes..

[wpage66]

I have been working on learning about our new to us (2007) Hawk this summer. The fridge has been a constant battle. I have never had it working where it cools to the point I like. It does cool just not well enough. On our first trip it stayed lit while travelling down the road O.K., and seemed to cool just O.K. not great but acceptable, of course it was our first trip out and still was cool in the early Spring and we were using the buddy heater at night, so it really did not have to work that hard to be cooling just O.K. as the summer went on performance declined to unacceptable.

I followed one of the instructions here for cleaning the burner and was looking at all the tin/baffles behind the fridge and thought they were restricting air flow behind the fridge too much



I removed baffle (15) thinking that the heat building up behind fridge would exit the vent easier. I did this before finding this image in the install manual. Needless to say performance on our Labor day trip to OK was miserable temp in the fridge was up to 80 and nearly all items got moved to an Ice cooler brought along. Temps out side was up to 100 so it was cooling around 20 degrees which seems to be the best performance I have achieved. One of the biggest problems I noticed by doing this was the flame did not stay lit at all while travelling.

So more adjustments. I took the burner apart and cleaned it again, It does seem to work but I question if the flame is strong enough. It does light well with the igniter on the front fridge panel and the thermocouple has a red glow in pict



From the service Manual - found here - http://bryantrv.com/docs2/docs/n300.pdf it states
" The thermostat is not an automatic gas control. .... If the cooling load changes, you must manually change the gas control to maintain the same temperature inside the refrigerator." Where do you make this change to the gas control?

I also cleaned the flue with a bore bush, - be careful of dropping it down there ;-) and put the tin baffle back in place and sealed up the top of the fridge so ho heat/exhaust would get trapped above the fridge.

Original seal on top of fridge,



With 3M tape rated at 300 deg.



Put the baffle back in after trimming it down to 7in cut off about 3in that was just folded over by upper fins on fridge, now it looks more like the diagram. Also taped the edges of it to make all air flow through fins on fridge.



I put in an indoor/outdoor thermometer over the weekend and have been trying to log the temps on gas/electric still only getting about 20 deg cooling vs outside temps. Only seeing modest gains on the adjustments I have made. Did I do something wrong or missing anything, or is this just the limited performance I can get from this 3-way.

I think I have nearly done all I can do short of having a tech check the ammonia levels, or pull the fridge out and roll it around to 'burp' it. I think if it does get pulled out a 24v/110v compressor one will replace it.

Frustrated.

 

[MarkBC]

My experience with a Norcold propane "3-way" fridge: It worked fine for me for almost 5 years. When it stopped working fine I cleaned the burner and it was fine again. A couple of years after that the cooling-system ruptured and died.
But I still was happy with that fridge -- it worked well for me.
Now, I didn't ever try to use it in 90°F temperatures, maybe not warmer than the mid/upper-80s...but I don't camp in places that get that hot (when it's that hot, that's what "higher" and "north" are for ).

You'll hear that 3-ways are just no good...but that wasn't my experience.
Sorry I can't help troubleshoot, though.

 

[Smokecreek1]

Ya, my experience is allot like Marks, worked great for a while (while learning how to use and not use it), then my thermalcouple(?sp) went out while up in Oregon; replaced it and it worked fine until it crashed out in Nevada. To me the semi-secret was how level you parked it and the one thing that never changed, pushing that dang spark button never got easy. After 9 years bought that compression frig and went solar and things seem to work fine.

Smoke

 

[Stan@FourWheel]

From talking to many customers over the years and also listening to customers on the forums, those older 3-way refrigerators will either work great forever, or they will be a pain to get working correctly, forever. Seems like a 50% / 50% situation.

Many of our new customers are going with the 2-way (AC/DC) compressor refrigerators, dual batteries, and a big solar panel. But this also comes at a cost to make sure you have enough power to keep the refrigerator going and not drain the camper batteries.

My parents have the larger 2.9 cu.ft. Norcold refrigerator/freezer in their camper and it has worked perfectly since 2003, in all sorts of weather.

I had a small Norcold 1.9 cu.ft. refrigerator in one of my older campers and I could never get the pilot light to stay lit when driving. The frig. was so small anyway, I just decided to bring a cooler instead of fighting the refrigerator. The cooler worked great for our short weekend trips.

Adding a fan to the upper refrigerator vent REALLY seems to help to get the refrigerator to cool down, better than without a fan.

The larger refrigerators usually have the temp./gas settings on the front / upper portion of the refrigerator, inside the camper.

The smaller refrigerators usually have the gas / temp. controls on the outside of the refrigerator, outside / lower refrigerator vent.


Our dealer in Texas just did a full, hands on refrigerator test. Here is the information in case it helps anyone out there researching refrigerators . . .

______________________________________________________________________________________________________


Just sending this out to everyone as tidbits of information on the 2-way vs. 3-way. Some of you probably know this stuff, but I hope it will be helpful to some of you.

I wanted to get a few questions answered on the operating efficiencies of the various fridges. I had a customer ask if the 3-way cools better on shore power than on propane—it did, by about 5*. I also wanted to see if what I had read was true: that the 3-way can only cool down to about 45*-50* under ambient temperature, which is critical if one is camping in temps above 90* with perishable foods or medicine to keep cold.

With the temperatures in my shop/showroom running from 88*-90* overnight, rising to 100*-104* by late afternoon, I thought this would be a good time of year to test the two types of refrigerators and the ice box against each other—I had one of each type, brand new, sitting in my showroom campers. There was no sun beating on the sidewalls of the campers, and of course all three were operating under the same ambient temps at the same time.

I initially I did not plan to include the ice box, but at the last minute I decided what-the-heck and put 20 pounds of crushed ice in it (I could not find a block of ice). I was surprised to find the ice box held a temperature within 4*-10* of the propane fridge.

A digital thermostat specifically made for checking refrigerator temps was used; the same one was moved between the refrigerators, which would also simulate opening/closing the doors during normal usage.

I started the test by running the refrigerators on shore power and max cool setting for 22 hours for the initial cool-down. (Note: the 2-way was constantly on shore power as I did not have batteries in it, nor any solar gain. I think it would perform the same whether running on 12V or 110V?) And the 3-way was not tested on 12V as it draws over 14 amps in this mode.

After the 22 hours of initial cool-down, I switched the 3-way to propane, and stocked both with 14 pre-chilled water bottles, (but only 6 bottles in the ice box). At this time the fridge section/freezer section temps were 28*/5* in the 2-way; 48*/7* for the 3-way. Thinking I did not want the water bottles in the 2-way to freeze, I turned it from the highest setting (7) down to 6.

About 4 hours into the test, with an ambient temp of 100*, the 2-way was 38*/7* while the 3-way was 43*/15*. The ice box was at 53*.

At about 7 hours, with ambient temp still at 100*, the 2-way dropped to 33*/4* while the 3-way rose to 48*/18*.

At 8 hours, the ice box was at 52*.

I did not want to leave the 3-way running on propane overnight unattended, so I switched it over to shore power and let it run for 24 more hours. And, just for fun, I set the 2-way back on “7” to see how low it could go.

The temps the following day for the 3-way on shore power was 44*, but dropped to 38*/7* an hour later, and then went back up to 44* two hours later. Ambient temp was 104*. The 2-way readings this morning were 30*/LL—the freezer temp had exceeded the capability of the thermometer of -4*, so evidently the 2-way’s freezer was below -4*.

The ice box was still maintaining 55*-58* with the ice almost gone. I found that the ice lasted 30 hours.

The Food & Drug Administration notes that a “safe” refrigerator temperature—to prevent or slow down bacterial growth—is not over 40*. Freezer temps should be 0*-10*.

So, I think if a customer will want proper refrigeration for perishables when they are traveling/camping in temps over 90*, the 3-way and ice box are not quite capable of that. It’s a great selling point for the 2-way and solar!

Scott --- Four Wheel Campers of Texas




.

 

[norcalhawk]

I had a new 3-way Dometic 1.9 cu/ft. that came in my new FWC. It worked ok in cool weather..."once", maybe "twice". In cold temps. most everything in the fridge froze. Most of the time, it struggle and never got cold enough to keep food and milk fresh. Like you, I went through the process of dismantling the burner/baffles and anything else that could be cleaned. It wasn't really dirty...heck, I couldn't keep the burner lit long enough to get dirty, ugh! No improvement!

Perhaps I just got a lemon...That said, I'm sure there are others that have better luck with theirs. There are some great discussions on this site regarding 3-way vs. Compressor fridge's. So after two years of struggling with this and lots of spoiled milk, I made the change...
My solution, I pulled it out and replaced it with a compressor fridge. 100% improvement...cold food and milk again. The inside fridge temps are consistent in cold/warm and hot weather.

Sorry, I can't be much help with yours...you're not alone.

 

[Ace!]

Interesting. I really didn't want or understand 2-way and possible benefits over 3-way but after reading about the significant difference in battery draw decided to go that way. Thanks for passing on the information Stan, seems to be a better product for my needs.

 

[kmacafee]

When you are investing the dollars we do in a truck camper, the truck, etc., the incremental cost difference to add solar and a compressor fridge just isn't that great.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Wander The West mobile app

 

[Ace!]

That's what I figure kmacafee.

 

[PJorgen]

Stan - I've got a 2014 Hawk with the 3-way frig. Haven't used it enough to have a good feel for it but my experience seems to mirror others; it's OK when ambient is 80 or less, not so good when it's hotter.

Anyway - if as you state, an aux fan makes a big difference, why doesn't FWC offer it? Seems a no brainer to me.

In the meantime, can someone point me to a DIY for adding a fan? I need a project for the winter, assuming we get all the rain that they're forecasting for California.

 

[DrJ]

The larger 3-way fridges struggle with air flow. The hot air gets trapped in the upper portion of the back part of the fridge. Just feel the top of the cabinet above the fridge and you will notice it.
The 3 way fridge need more fan power than FWC puts in - at least in my opinion. The other option would put having a vent open at the top of the fridge cabinet. However this would then vent into the camper.
I added 3 extra fans to my setup and it helped quite a bit while I had the 3 way fridge.

I did however still end up switching to compressor and solar. I don't think I'd ever go back.

You might consider adding a stronger or several more fans to your setup. Just feel the top cabinet after running the fridge for a while. If it's hot, it's worth a try.
Replacing the fridge is not easy.

 

[MowFam08]

Thank you Stan@FourWheel for sharing Scott's experiment and results. I agree with your post, those head-to-head results are compelling and lend toward 2-way with solar panel(s)--particularly for those of us in hotter climates.

 

[Casa Escarlata Robles Too]

OK so I have a small fan,from an old computer.Can and how do I use it in the upper vent area of my 1.9cf Dometic fridge?
Does it run off a switch that I would have to turn on when using propane?
I have had good luck with my 3 way,but we don't camp in HOT areas.
And I keep the temp set on the lowest so things stay mostly frozen and use the Truckfridge/comp. cooler for all other food.
This method works well for us.So far at least.
Frank

 

[DrJ]

Frank,
The computer fans would work fine for this application. My hawk had the original FWC fan that is essentially a computer fan. I then spliced in 2 other fans to that same wire.
It is hooked to a switch in the camper. I turn it on when I'm running the fridge and it's warm outside.

I noticed an improvement even when I switched compressor fan setup. More air flow keeps the compartment cool. Even the compressor creates heat - just nothing like the 3 way does.

I think FWC should install 2-3 of them as standard options for any fridge setup. They are cheap and make a big difference.

 

[Casa Escarlata Robles Too]

Frank,
The computer fans would work fine for this application. My hawk had the original FWC fan that is essentially a computer fan. I then spliced in 2 other fans to that same wire.
It is hooked to a switch in the camper. I turn it on when I'm running the fridge and it's warm outside.

I noticed an improvement even when I switched compressor fan setup. More air flow keeps the compartment cool. Even the compressor creates heat - just nothing like the 3 way does.

I think FWC should install 2-3 of them as standard options for any fridge setup. They are cheap and make a big difference.

Thanks DrJ.
The fan I would use draws .25a,I think I could just mount it to the outside upper vent panel. Than wire a switch inside maybe in the fuse block area.
Frank

 

[idahoron]

I have a three way in mine, I have had good luck. I use it to keep my Bait frozen when I am catfishing. I stuff it full of cut bait and I have never had a problem. I don't take milk and I am not a fan of lunch meat. I mostly keep water, an adult beverage or two. Maybe let over pizza. I put mine of high and in the day I turn on the fridge fan. At night I watch a movie with my dinner ( fried catfish) and let the battery charge on the Generator. I normally turn the fan off at night because it is somewhat cooler.
I took Ice Cream out with me to scout for antelope. It was over 90 at night. My ice Cream was solid, my water was cold enough and the adult beverages were cold enough.
If I have something I want to keep colder I place it by the fins in the back of the fridge. Mine just works.

 

[Beach]

My 3 way works fine until ambient temp gets into the 90s. max temp difference between fridge and outside temp is 40-45 degrees depending on how level the rig is(level is very important). I have the cooling fan and run it always for max performance. In the hot temps you have to adjust the fridge setting a couple times a day, 3-4 during the night and maxed out during the day.The biggest advantage to the 3 way is I can run almost 2 weeks, rain or shine or parked in the shade on propane in 90 degree weather, maybe longer in cool weather. Having said that, I would probably go with a 2 way fridge and expanded solar system with 200-300 amp/hr battery bank if I got a new rig.

 

[esimmers]

My 2009 Hawk has the 3-way fridge. We like it for our situation but may not meet your needs. We keep in running 24/7 between weekend outings; the freezer keeps everything frozen and all the condiments in the door and everything that we keep in the fridge stay just fine. On the road, we do worry about lettuce and other vegetables freezing sometimes; most small refrigerators (and kegerators) don't have good air/temp circulation. We also live in the Pacific Northwest which probably means we don't have the extreme temperatures experienced by folks in the Southwest. We do keep a lot in the fridge and are happy so far. There's a lot more energy in a propane tank that in a battery, so we never worry about fuel when running on gas.

Because there wasn't room for much beer in the fridge, I bought an Dometic/Engel compressor fridge that I keep in the cab back seat but power from the camper. It keeps the beer cold and also keeps vegetables from freezing. I love how temperature-controllable it is (compared to the 3-way), BUT I have to be careful with the electricity amp usage. I don't get to/want to camp in direct all-day sunlight very often so I have to watch my battery and even occasionally turn off the electric fridge.

So, I recommend people review the advantages and disadvantages of each type of fridge and use that to decide which would be best for their particular situation.

 

[wpage66]

I am still doing some experimenting on settings, comparing gas vs electric when I left this AM it was at 34 inside and 70 outside and that was with the exhaust fan on for the last day, I only have one which was a factory install and on the build sheet.

Asking again, does anyone know where to adjust the gas control? If the thermostat actually works it has to adjust the gas flow. I assume it never shuts it off completely as it has no auto-lighter to start up again if fridge warms up past setting. I am curious how the fridge adjust the gas flow and what is the max setting that can be attained on the flame.

I will check level and get it perfectly blocked up tonight, close right now but not exactly level. Last two times out we were on a pad at lake campgrounds and still no joy with fridge.

I am thinking that the best replacement is the Dometic 3.8 CoolMatic CR whose dimensions are 20.5"Wx29 5/8"H x 21 3/4" cutout size would be a prefect fit for the current space with a 3.75 amp draw.

I figure the one I have is a 2005-2007 Norcold 300 model as the Hawk is a 2007

Considering options,

 

[Stan@FourWheel]

wpage66

Does the front of your refrigerator look like this ??

If so, the knob that says 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. is your gas flow adjustment.

5 will be the coldest setting.

.

 

[Kodachrome]

I turned on my 2-way CR1065 the week before Memorial day weekend, It's been running ever since.

I just set it, fill it and forget it, even with the truck not being driven for over 3 weeks in July. 2-way + twin batteries and 350W of solar has simply revolutionized what I can expect from my setup.