Rear turnbuckle mount failure on Hallmark Guanella

[coulter6]

I used the lower StableLoads on my F250 with Northstar T650. No air bags. I thought they worked very well handling the load. I installed them myself and not hard to do. I liked that I could disable the StableLoads when the camper was off the truck giving back the stock ride.

Also used the total frame mounted TorkLift system all around with FastGuns. Held the camper extremely well. Since I spent the money for the camper, I figured spending a little more extra for a solid mounting solution was worth it.

 

[ntsqd]

If you already have air springs then I don't see any reason to go with the over-load spring spacers. I'd do one or the other, but not both. If you're trying to control side to side sway then add a sway-bar or increase the spring rate of the existing sway-bar.

 

[smlobx]

I thought I had pretty much decided to add the Air Lift 5000 to my new truck in an effort to keep the truck level after I install the Carli leveling springs up front but some comments here have me wondering...
One of the reasons I was leaning that way is because, like many here, my camper is not on full time and I didn't want to have a harsh ride when empty. Also since I could keep the rig as high as when empty I thought it would help when offroad. A crew cab F-350 with an 8 ft. Bed is a big truck and a couple of inches would certainly help.

Is the ride with the air bags harsher when loaded?

 

[Wandering Sagebrush]

No, but they are definitely harsher when unloaded and you forget to air the bags down... I keep about 7 psi in them when empty.

 

[Bad Habit]

The Airlift 5000 system has the built in bump stops so you can run them with no pressure, that is if you remember to air them down.

It looks like the Northstar uses a similar connection point on their campers

 

[DoGMAtix]

I happened to be talking to my diesel mechanic (who I know pretty well, having bought a diesel truck with194,000 mi on it) and asked about his take on StableLoads. He had a similar view to Bad Habit's, that the StableLoads are not likely to decrease forces to the camper. He said that particularly when carrying a heavy load you don't want to engage the springs any more than necessary at any given weight, so they can flex in the pattern they're designed to flex in. The overload is still there for overload.
Coulter6, I'm wondering did you take the StableLoads over rough roads? Did the camper seem to get less tossed about/ fewer jarring impacts with them engaged?
He also agreed that running minimal pressure in the air bags would make sense. With squishy air bags and 1,500+lb in the bed, the rear end may sag a bit, but we'll be nicely compressed into the most active range of the springs, with overload dampening available if needed.
It'll be easy to air the bags back up upon return to smooth highway (to level the truck and keep it tight around corners), as we'll be running the compressor anyway to air the tires back up.
Bad Habit, I'll ask you about shocks sometime down the road when we decide we need to have more adjustability to dial in ideal ride under various driving conditions and with/without camper (by then you'll probably have learned a few things through real life experiments). Please post your results in a new thread if/when you head off down that road.

 

[JaSAn]

. . .

Although the plywood bordering the holes is probably compromised, if we make the upper plates quite large we should be OK. 1/8” aluminum should suffice on top, 1/16” probably adequate on bottom.

. . .

For now I’m just going to focus on putting in plates with as much structural strength as possible so whatever we do with the turnbuckles will be less likely to result in mounting point damage.

. . .

Coming from the 'when in doubt, build it stout' school of engineering I am curious as to why you are going with aluminum instead of steel? Steel should give you better bending, shear and tear strength.

jim

 

[DoGMAtix]

That's a good question (aluminum vs steel plates) - I'm under the impression that aluminum should be strong enough for the plates, especially with angles to keep them rigid under stress. Bill from Hallmark was in favor of aluminum and I think he's right that they'd be fine, and would have the advantage of being lighter weight as well as less likely to rust or mark up the cushions. I'm a little concerned that very heavy steel plates could stress the plywood more over time. However, we may yet go with stainless or powder-coated steel.
I'm meeting with the fabricator again Tuesday morning and we'll hopefully move ahead with an initial "final plan" then.

 

[coulter6]

Coulter6, I'm wondering did you take the StableLoads over rough roads? Did the camper seem to get less tossed about/ fewer jarring impacts with them engaged?

Yes, I did use them on rough roads. I believe the truck handle better and made it ride smoother. It also didn't bottom out as much. It certainly handled better, especially on wash board roads. They also eliminated the slight body sag with the camper installed.

 

[nobueno]

We have upper stable loads and airbags. Had the airbags first and weren't thrilled with them, then we had a few leaks and decided to have the stableloads as a fail-safe. They make for a much softer ride than airbags with 30+ psi. Instead of a harsh jarring with the air the springs feel like they have some give, as they should. I would think that'd make for less stress on the camper, no?

 

[DoGMAtix]

I seem to be getting more confused rather than less. Although my mechanic's advice to let the rear leaf springs/ overloads do their job as designed (without putting things in to obstruct their movement) makes sense to me, coulter6 and nobueno seem to feel the stableloads (lower and upper, respectively) tamed the jarring ride. Bad Habit seems to think the uppers actually made the ride more jarring. I'm wondering what I should do - uppers, lowers, or none? The folks at Torklift essentially consider the issue a no-brainer and recommend the lowers over the uppers for our purposes (they do like their company's products! and for what it's worth the company seems to be well run). I'll talk to the metal fabricator/ off-road modification guy tomorrow when I drop the truck off. It'll be a week or two before he's done installing skid plates and repairing turnbuckle mounting points, so there's time yet to ponder.
Any other positive or negative experiences people have had with StableLoads (or other ride-smoothing modifications for rough terrain) would be appreciated.
Thanks!

 

[Bad Habit]

The uppers would be more jarring only when empty. As they extend the contact point down for the upper overloads, they will engage sooner, even without a load. On my truck, with no load, they have ~1/2" before contact. During normal driving, that 1/2" gets taken up pretty quick so you get a rapid increase in spring rate - jarring. When load, no problem, they are engaged so no harsh transition to adding the overloads.

The lower ones allow you to disengage so shouldn't be an issue empty. You do have to engage/disengage them. Seems to just need a ratchet/extension?

 

[DoGMAtix]

Well, the truck/camper are now in the shop. Plan is to hold off on stableloads and work on dialing in optimal ride through adjustable rear shocks and modulation of pressure in tires and air bags.
We are going with steel plates for the turnbuckle mounting points, the new interior plates will probably be about 10 times the surface area of the old ones that tore through. Given how smoothly the truck/camper worked as a unit before the attachment point failure I'm optimistic that the mounting point reinforcement will get us back to the confident driving we were enjoying previously, and hopefully with much lower risk of failure.
I'll post photos once we've got things put back together. May be a couple of weeks.
Thanks for all the input, although this seems kind of like a crapshoot I feel like I have a better sense of how various options might help, and we can go back to any of them if need be.

 

[Bad Habit]

Definitely interested in seeing the plates. I may want to do a little preemptive upgrade, if for nothing else, piece of mind (plus I can't leave well enough alone - if it ain't broke, fix it till it is ). I can see the drivers side on mine, very easy access and would be a simple job. Haven't dug into the passenger side yet, seems to be right under where the dinette ends and storage cabinet starts. That may be a little intrusive to do anything with unless it does fail.

 

[OpenSpace]

Second Bad Habit on liking to see the plates. I'll probably do mine this week. Also decided to go with steel. Thought I'd use the same bolt holes but haven't decided on plate size.

 

[DoGMAtix]

I'll post photos of the plates as soon as they're ready to install - the fabricator is working on a backlog of monster trucks and rock crawlers and will be focusing on our relatively modest project when he gets some time in between.
I'm sure our plates will be significantly larger than what you'd need to preemptively reinforce an apparently intact mounting point, especially if you find solid plywood underneath the original plates. In that case 6" x 8"should be fine, especially if there's a 90 degree bend going up the lateral wall to keep the plate from bowing under load. However, I'm thinking you may find that the wood is cracked or sagging under or adjacent to the plates, in which case you'll want to go bigger.
Bad Habit, you'll probably find your passenger-side plates under the carpet right around where ours tore through (see my photo from earlier in this thread) - closer to the side wall than the cabinet. I'd think you could cut the carpet cleanly along the edges of the (new, larger) plate that run perpendicular to the exterior wall of the camper, lift a rectangular section away from the side wall while leaving the edge toward the middle of the camper intact. Install the plates, and then stick the carpet back down over the top (the bent part of the plate sitting up against the wall of the camper would not be covered, but if the edges are dulled and the piece is powder coated it should not get in the way or be an eyesore). Still not ideal, but for the peace of mind that the camper is less likely to tear apart I could happily live with the funkier look.

 

[smlobx]

DoG what kind of adjustable rear shocks are you thinking of using?

 

[DoGMAtix]

Rancho 9000s. Turns out we actually have older model Ranchos on the rear end of the truck now, with adjustments set to the lowest/softest level. The prior owner hadn't mentioned the adjustable shocks, and we were too focused on the air bags and tire pressure and turnbuckles to even think about what kind of shocks we were running. Duh. Guess you live and you learn. We'll try to optimize settings for rough road driving once the camper is fixed. Maybe our current shocks will work fine, maybe we'll "spring" for some new 9000s.
Right now the fabricator is waiting for plates to be delivered (being cut by water jet at a different shop). Will probably be a couple more weeks before we can install and test the new system.

 

[OpenSpace]

Reinforced the rear tiedown point on my Guanella by putting a larger, L-shaped interior plate in, as well as a larger outer bracket. Both steel. Used same mounting holes. After bolting everything together I removed the outer bracket as I hadn't bent the steel to conform to the contours of the camper, and in fact the steel making contact with the truck was actually less than with the aluminum bracket that Hallmark uses. Switched back to the aluminum bracket on the outside. Also think the greater give in the aluminum is probably good.

Think I'm going to redo this whole thing with larger plates still, and by bending the outer plate appropriately.

Steel used I found at dump, cut and bolted together. Project time about 2 hours. Cost $0.00.

Off to Death Valley in a few days. Definitely a bit worried but think it's better than before. I'll air down and try to drive conservatively.

 

[DoGMAtix]

Looks good. Interior plate should be the key to strength. Plan is to make ours significantly bigger than yours, mostly because of the damaged wood where our original plates pulled through. I'd say you should find some rough roads and see how sturdy the setup is. I can't imagine your pulling those bigger plates through, especially if you're vigilant about airing down tires and adjusting shocks/ air bags. Anyhow if worse comes to worst you can drive some pretty rough roads with no rear turnbuckles (as long as you keep your fronts tight) and freeway miles are casual at high speed with only front mounting points.
Send an update!
I'm still waiting for the fabricator to get back home from a family emergency back east. I should have photos and a test drive report by the end of next week.

Edit: I just looked at the photo of the outside plate (shown with quick link) more closely, and agree they could use some tweaking. I can't tell exactly how or where they're fastened to the camper - did you use washers or some other sort of spacer? I think you're smart to go with the old aluminum plates for now. In addition to fitting more cleanly they probably do protect against damage by bending under extreme force (eg, hitting an erosion channel on a dirt road at 20 MPH). Bill at Hallmark actually told me he'd designed them with that in mind. When we got our camper (used) the old outer mounts were already bent, as per a prior post describing mounting the camper on the truck. Maybe if we'd bent them back to their original shape they would have absorbed some of the force of the bump that tore the upper plates through.
I'm wondering why our original outer plates had been mounted with screws through the carbon fiber camper shell in addition to the carriage bolts fastening them through the camper floor..? Didn't seem to offer much (if any) extra strength, and bringing the plate out wide from where it's effectively fastened seems like it would create a lever arm that would make the plate easier to bend. Perhaps a good thing when it comes to one big bump that'll bend the plate instead of tearing up the camper, but after that big bump and bend what's the use? I suppose the extra width may be necessary for turnbuckle clearance at the back end of the truck, unfortunately I can't go out and check that now because the truck & camper are at the shop.
Our metal fabricator suggested putting engine mounting springs onto the outer plates' turnbuckle mounting points to be able to absorb sudden strong forces repeatedly. We've got a pretty good idea what the final product will look like, but we're going to sit down and take a look at the materials and make final design tweaks before he starts fabricating toward the end of the coming week.