Wire From Truck Upgrade

CPT Davenport

El Pescador
Joined
Dec 18, 2021
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706
Location
Davenport CA
With my Hawk delivery going down in just 10 more weeks, I'm asking FWC if they can upsize the wire when they do the installation. They make it sound like it is not something the do regularly. I asked if they could run 6awg. They said they'll see if they can do 8awg.

1. Has anyone had 6awg or larger ran by FWC in Sac?
2. Would 8awg work for my DC/DC charger and 100ah lithium "good enough" to get by?
 
6awg is good for 50 amps up to 15' in length. I believe when you list your batteries ah, that is amp hour, which is a general spec to compare to other batteries and that your battery can put out 100 amps for an hour (but in reality it may not be able to actually do that). What in your camper would take such a massive amount of power?
 
Most wire sizing tables and calculators rate the wire for the max steady state current it can handle without overheating and causing damage. However, most charging scenarios involve high current flow for only a short period of time, maybe 10's seconds to a couple of minutes.

if you consider Joule heating and the damage threshold of the wire then for a given starting temperature and a max allowable wire temperature along with a given current load a time can be calculated during which the wire can handle higher current.

For example; Assuming a 28 C (82 F) starting temp and a max allowable temp of 80 C (176 F) 6 ga is good up to 70 amps for about 5 minutes before it gets hot enough to damage the wire. It is good up to about 11 minutes with a steady 50 A current flow.

Even though Jumper cables may carry 150 amps or more for a short period of time they are often made of 6 ga or 4 ga wire for this reason.

So the best question is what is the max current flow produced and over what duration.  Knowing that one can appropriately size the wire without running heavy cable.

That written another factor is voltage drop which depends on wire size and wire length. A wire needs to be sized large enough so that the voltage drop does not create a problem for the battery being charged.

For Lead acid batteries need the bulk and absorption voltages typically vary between 14.0 and 14.8 V, and the float can vary between 13.2 and 13.8 V.

For LiFePO4 bulk/absorption voltages between 14.2 and 14.6 Volt will work! Lower is possible too, down to about 14.0 Volt, with the help of some absorb time. According to literature the BMS for most LiFePO4 batteries will allow around 14.8 - 15.0 Volt before disconnecting the battery.

For a 20 foot one way distance 6 ga wire will result in about a 0.4 V drop. If your source voltage is 15 V then the charge voltage will be 14.6 V.

I think voltage drop dictates the minimum wire size for most charging applications and 6 ga seems to be the appropriate minimum size.

https://grealpha.com/resources/dc-load-wiring-calculator/calc/voltage-drop/

I see that the Redarc BCDC1250D puts out 50 A at a max of 15.3 V. So you need wire large enough to handle 50 A steady state (min 4 ga but that is the limiting current so the wire will run hot. Therefore, I would use 2 ga).

The Redarc BCDC1225D puts out 25 A at a max of at a max of 15.3 V. So you would need at least 4 ga.

Victron has 18, 20, and 30 Amp continuous output DC-DC chargers (Orion) that put out up to 15 V. I think 4 ga is the minimum wire size appropriate for these too.

All these wire size minimums are based on the Joule Heating calculator or the wire size calculator (see links).

Ref:
https://www.nepsi.com/resources/calculators/short-time-current-rating-of-conductor.htm?fbclid=IwAR3rvc3Xz7FH-Kw4dvmZiAGdxU0vYb7p8iHI9tRekVUFkkvYx6v_5_dDLp0



I hope this is helpful.


Craig
 
Thanks for laying it out Craig. Sounds like if I put in the Victron 12/12-30 I will need WAY bigger wire. So my next question is this.

Has anyone had continued success with a standard factory 10 wire and ACR setup and just swapping in a lithium battery?

It sounds like the biggest problem is this wont allow the alternator to bring the battery up to 100% SOS. I feel that most of the time the solar should top off what every the alternator could not accomplish.
 
This has come up before in various FWC discussion groups and it has been reported that the factory wiring will not keep a Victron Orion charging successfully. It's always a lot further from truck battery to charger than you think. I ran 4 AWG wire and am happy for it.

I've never heard of anyone being successful at getting the factory to deviate from their obsolete wiring.

Dean
 
Cpt Davenport said:
Has anyone had continued success with a standard factory 10 wire and ACR setup and just swapping in a lithium battery?
Answer for me is NO. I tried using 10 AWG on my 2001 F350 Crew Cab, which turned into about a 25 ft wire run from the truck battery. The ACR would click on and off every time my electric fridge would turn on. I at first the ACR was faulty or something, even though I had installed it on several other vehicles and never had an issue. That being said, I had always used cut up 4AWG jumper cables. I then got a Victron 12/12-30 DC-DC charger and once again started having issues due to voltage drops.

Finally just bought some big long jumper cables and wired up some large Anderson connectors, put on some heavy duty conduit and ran the wire back all the way to the Victron and everything started working as they should.

I plan on getting some high quality marine grade tinned copper wire at some point, but the jumper cables are working for now.
 
The answer for me is also no and it isn't just the wire size, I have a 'smart' alternator that limits the amps going to the camper batteries. My Hawk is 2 months old and the first thing I installed was 330 watts of solar on the roof, 2 100 ah litium batteries, a battery monitor and a solar controller. I can connect via bluetooth with the battery monitor while driving and noticed there is a DRAIN of 10-15 amps going FROM my camper batteries into the truck battery at times. I have disconnected my ACR from the alternator and just use the solar while driving and I seem to get to camp fully charged. Don't need the charging from the alternator.
 
bsharp007 said:
The answer for me is also no and it isn't just the wire size, I have a 'smart' alternator that limits the amps going to the camper batteries. My Hawk is 2 months old and the first thing I installed was 330 watts of solar on the roof, 2 100 ah litium batteries, a battery monitor and a solar controller. I can connect via bluetooth with the battery monitor while driving and noticed there is a DRAIN of 10-15 amps going FROM my camper batteries into the truck battery at times. I have disconnected my ACR from the alternator and just use the solar while driving and I seem to get to camp fully charged. Don't need the charging from the alternator.
Great idea! I think I will disconnect the alternator, swap out the SLA for my lithium and see what happens! Negative amps is a bad thing for sure. When I pull the camper off I can upgrade my wire and will instal the DC/DC charger.
 
Cpt Davenport,

Does your truck have a "smart" alternator? If it does then a DC-DC charger may be a good choice.

If not then a DC-DC charger is probably not the right choice and a ML-ACR would probably be more appropriate.
 
ckent323 said:
Cpt Davenport,

Does your truck have a "smart" alternator? If it does then a DC-DC charger may be a good choice.

If not then a DC-DC charger is probably not the right choice and a ML-ACR would probably be more appropriate.
I'm not sure if I have a smart alternator. As I research online it looks like I need to test voltage while running to be sure. I was hoping to get an answer for my 2017 Silverado or an RPO code, but nothing. If anyone has a yes or no for my year make model that would be great.
 
Measure the output from your alternator with a volt meter.

I found this recommended diagnosis check :

If your readings are around 14.4V DC then you most likely have the traditional, non-smart alternator. If your reading is closer to 12.5-13.5V then it's likely that you have a smart alternator.
 
I have a 2015 Silverado, and the voltage varies. I’m pretty sure it is a “smart” alternator. The one in my 2006 put out 14.4 pretty constantly. This one drops to to 13.2 or so once the battery is charged.
 
Re: Does a 2017 Silverado have a smart alternator?

There's some interesting reading in this thread....

Alternator output of 12.75V too low? (in SilveradoSierra forum)

Post 2 answers the 2017 Silverado 1500 owner's question and provides excerpts from the manual. Those excerpts don't use the term 'smart alternator' but the functions described are what's meant by that term. GM uses the terms 'Electric Power Management' and 'Regulated Voltage Control'. If those same concepts are in your manual, you have a smart alternator.

Post 4 asks an important question: Does this apply to HD models?

Post 8 answers that and tells us details are in the GM Upfitters Manual (and provides excerpts)

The excerpt goes into detail on charging modes, duty cycles, output voltages, etc and also includes this interesting info:
-------------
Tow/Haul Mode (if applicable)
Pressing the Tow/Haul Mode button located on the center stack, the vehicle system voltage is raised and the remote (non-vehicle) battery will be charged. Having the headlamps on will raise the system voltage and if the Tow/Haul button is applied it will not serve any purpose.
The voltage is regulated between 13.9-14.5 V.
------------

And post 12 helps us understand truck classifications (if we want to go into the Upfitters Manual) and provides a link to the 2016 version.
.
 
Old Crow said:
Re: Does a 2017 Silverado have a smart alternator?

There's some interesting reading in this thread....

Alternator output of 12.75V too low? (in SilveradoSierra forum)

Post 2 answers the 2017 Silverado 1500 owner's question and provides excerpts from the manual. Those excerpts don't use the term 'smart alternator' but the functions described are what's meant by that term. GM uses the terms 'Electric Power Management' and 'Regulated Voltage Control'. If those same concepts are in your manual, you have a smart alternator.

Post 4 asks an important question: Does this apply to HD models?

Post 8 answers that and tells us details are in the GM Upfitters Manual (and provides excerpts)

The excerpt goes into detail on charging modes, duty cycles, output voltages, etc and also includes this interesting info:
-------------
Tow/Haul Mode (if applicable)
Pressing the Tow/Haul Mode button located on the center stack, the vehicle system voltage is raised and the remote (non-vehicle) battery will be charged. Having the headlamps on will raise the system voltage and if the Tow/Haul button is applied it will not serve any purpose.
The voltage is regulated between 13.9-14.5 V.
------------

And post 12 helps us understand truck classifications (if we want to go into the Upfitters Manual) and provides a link to the 2016 version.
.
Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Voltage test

Resting 12.38
Running 14.95
Tow/Haul 15.07

Based on some of the numbers you guys are giving, I have a traditional, dumb alternator?

I did find the GM RPO code of KG4. This tells me my alternator is 150amp, but thats it.
 
You may have noticed by now that those voltages change. Basically, you want to know how low the 'running' one goes under multiple conditions, i.e., at different temperatures and battery charge states.

It's tough to get an idea of what the charging and starting system is doing in multiple conditions with a multimeter.

I use a digital voltage display plugged in to the cigarette lighter to watch what happens over time and to learn more about how it works.

I use an Innova 3721 for this but some may prefer a smaller form factor. I did try a USB charger with digital display but found that one (an Ainope) was reading two-to-three tenths low.

Personally, I think there's no doubt you have a smart alternator given what we've seen on the topic. But I'd also be interested in what you see with additional voltage observations.
 
Cpt Davenport,

After doing some searching on "when did GM start using variable control alternators" I found the following comment in GM truck forums several places. However, I don't know for sure if this is correct.

Starting with the 2005 model year, light duty full size pickups and utilities are equipped with a new Regulated Voltage Control (RVC) system
Given your truck is a 2017 I think it is fair to assume that it has a variable control (aka smart) alternator.


See this link and the section under "GM":

https://gearsmagazine.com/magazine/high-output-a-look-at-todays-charging-systems/

I hope this is helpful

Regards,
Craig
 
I would tend to agree that based on this information and the year of my truck, that the alternator is modern and "smart".

Regardless of the alternators intelligence, the 12/12-30 DC/DC charger is what in need if I wish to charge lithium from my battery right?

My plan is to disconnect the alternator from the battery. Put in my lithium and see how it preforms with solar only charging. When I get the time, and pull the camper off the truck I can upgrade the wire size, instal the Victron unit, and reconnect the alternator.
 
Variable or Regulated Voltage Control Alternator - DC to DC charger 4 ga minimum wire to house battery which I assume is Lithium Ion

Older non-smart alternator ML-ACR with 80 or 100 A resettable fuses at output and at house battery input (to protect the wiring which should be 6 ga minimum and better 4 ga).

If no Solar System with Solar Charge controller then it may be appropriate to put a charge controller on the lithium ion battery input. Depends on if you connect through an IOTA DLS 30 with IQ-4 (or equivalent) or direct to the house battery from the MA-ACR.

In both cases your starting battery should be a lead acid battery - probably AGM. I am not aware of any Lithium Ion Batteries that are rated as starting batteries. Recommend using 80 A or 100 A resettable fuses/breakers at output to house battery and at house battery input (to protect the wiring)
 

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