Bear spray vs a gun

[Malamute]

Warning Shots etc. : My first face to face (read up close - 10yds) did not go quite as planned. While I thought about what to do and how to handle my self for years - all the planning and prep went out the window. I consider my self very proficient with a firearm - and have been trained by some of he best on the continent. In terms of experience I have lots of LE/Military Experience. What is the most interesting is I did not know what I did not know when it came to being close up with bears.

Grizzly stumbled across us on a mountain side walked up to 10 yds - while I had my trusty guide gun with me it felt like an eternity before I actually picked up the rifle and shouldered it. We first spotted the bear at 30yds walking towards us - we were glassing for Bighorn Sheep and were not paying attention to our surroundings(First Lesson). Having lots of experience up close with Black Bears I did not feel that the Grizzly was aggressive - I believe she was curious (Second Lesson). As she moved closer it was our soft talking that turned her.

In our infinite wisdom we decided to fire a warning shot while she was broad side to us (Third Lesson). This made her angry/aggressive - ears down, head down, huffing, and jumping (front legs). She finally went on her way after some more soft talking. I consider myself aggressive when it comes to protecting myself - being that this bear was apparently more curious than aggressive I did not want to shoot her. If I had shot her I wonder if anything other than a brain/brain stem/spine shot would have stopped her. Cape Buffalo and Elephant are well know to be very hard to turn during a charge unless they are shot in the brain.

If I had to do it over again I would have had Bear Spray with me And a Firearm - We can't carry Pistols in Canada. I would have started talking a lot sooner with the hopes of spooking her.

Bear spray on my belt for when I am away from my pack/rifle - and the rifle just cause I like them and it is another tool in the tool box.

Just cause you have a firearm/spray it does not mean that you will be able to access it as the most dangerous encounters are usually unexpected.

... and I would carry a pistol if it was legal in my parts.

There is no perfect answer .....

I think you know this, but in case others didnt quite get the point, the warning shot when the bear wasnt acting aggresive, and in the specific situation you were in, wasnt helpful or appropriate.

There are many people that have fired warning shots, and they were quite effective at getting the bear to stop acting like a punk and go elsewhere. The bear you encountered seemed fairly confidant, and you challenged it needlessly. It sounds like it was simply curious more than anything, and the shot changed the relationship. In the end, it went away, which is good, and no bears or people were harmed in the production of the story.

I think bear spray is great, another tool to have. For many people, its a good alternative to firearms. For those capable enough with firearms, spray can be a good supplement. Some situations, it doesnt work well, like windy conditions, or wind in your face. Its also been discovered that on about 2% of bears, just like people, it simply doesnt work on them.

Something else many people dont get about bear spray, it IS NOT like bug repellant, you cant spray it ON things or around your camp to repel bears, IT DOESNT WORK like that. That actually attracts bears. Bears have been seen rolling in pepper spray used that way. The way it works is sprayed in their face, getting in their eyes and nose.

 

[Kolockum]

Something else many people dont get about bear spray, it IS NOT like bug repellant, you cant spray it ON things or around your camp to repel bears, IT DOESNT WORK like that. That actually attracts bears. Bears have been seen rolling in pepper spray used that way. The way it works is sprayed in their face, getting in their eyes and nose.

As funny as that is, it really happens. Though I imagine they regret their actions immediately.

 

[Ace!]

I'm on several forums and gun talk always seem to create a locked down thread, so glad to see this one has been civil.

In case others were reading and weren't aware, an M4 and AK don't use similar ammo and they don't use clips. They are not very similar rifles, certainly not appropriate to use on bears of any size, neither the .223 nor the 7.62.

I've never used bear spray and don't carry it, but we only have black bears near here. It might be very effective. For me it is very easy, natural, to carry a firearm, so I do. I almost always carry a .45, .357 or .44 depending on where I'll be. In addition to a side arm, if I'm out in the woods I very often carry a long gun in .44M or .45-70.

 

[Advmoto18]

I find it stunning someone would consider a 5.56 or 7.62 caliber rifle approapriate for killing bears. Both cailbers were designed for battle rifles, killing human beings, not bears or any other wildlife for that matter. Using these calibers on big bears is inhumane. Further, a wounded bear is far more dangerous than an agressive bear. Perhaps, you just might kill the bear before it kills you with the 7.62. I will put my money on the bear if you are shooting a 5.56 caliber rife. Google FBI ballistic data and observe the gelatin wound channels for these calibers. And these simulate humans, not thick skinned bears with organs far, far deeper in the body.

I know of no reputable guide service that will allow a client to use anything smaller than a 375HH on brown or grizzly bears.

Handguns: The 44Mag is the revolver caliber I would consider for dealing with an agressive/attacking western or AK bear. The 357 might be suitable shooting solid, non expanding bullets to get deep penetration and likely the smallest caliber I would carry. 10mm Glock 20 or 40 are a good choices for semi-auto. Big calibers include the 454 Casull, 460S&W, 480 Ruger and 500S&W The recoil is very significant with these calibers and they physcially hurt the hands and elbows to shoot them.

I agree Ace, if you tote a long gun, hard to beat the Marlin 1895 in 45-70. Just don't short stroke the lever for that follow-up shot! I prefer the Blaser R8 Safari with a 58cm 375HH barrel with iron sights. It is quick pointing and fast shooting due to the bolt design.

Regardless, of caliber, learning to and practicing shooting while under extreme physcial stress is the key to learning one's ability to both handle a firearm and to make accurate shots. Simply blasting away at a square range isn't going to help too much. While stress can be induced by trainers, the life threatening adrenalin dump is darn near impossible to replicate in training.

If you're going to carry a firearm in bear country, I would get some quality "real world" training and practice monthly if not more often.

 

[Casa Escarlata Robles Too]

Regardless, of caliber, learning to and practicing shooting while under extreme physcial stress is the key to learning one's ability to both handle a firearm and to make accurate shots. Simply blasting away at a square range isn't going to help too much. While stress can be induced by trainers, the life threatening adrenalin dump is darn near impossible to replicate in training.

If you're going to carry a firearm in bear country, I would get some quality "real world" training and practice monthly if not more often.

IMO That is the best advise I have heard.
Thanks
Frank

 

[Malamute]

I find it stunning someone would consider a 5.56 or 7.62 caliber rifle approapriate for killing bears. Both cailbers were designed for battle rifles, killing human beings, not bears or any other wildlife for that matter. Using these calibers on big bears is inhumane. Further, a wounded bear is far more dangerous than an agressive bear. Perhaps, you just might kill the bear before it kills you with the 7.62. I will put my money on the bear if you are shooting a 5.56 caliber rife. Google FBI ballistic data and observe the gelatin wound channels for these calibers. And these simulate humans, not thick skinned bears with organs far, far deeper in the body.

I know of no reputable guide service that will allow a client to use anything smaller than a 375HH on brown or grizzly bears.

RE 5.56/7.62x39, I would suggest that whatever "they were designed for" has little bearing on what they can be used for (30-06 being generally considered a great general purpose hunting round, was originally a military chambering). People use both the earlier mentioned rounds to hunt all manner of things regularly, though I agree both are not great bear choices. Still, many in the bush, particularly natives, regularly use them for making meat, including bears. There was in fact a grizzly killed near anchorage in the past year or two by a 5.45x39 AK in a defensive incident. Chip Hailstone and his family use various things to hunt and make meat with. His wife used a 7.62x54R Finnish Mosin to take a rather large coastel grizzly in NW Alaska a couple years ago. Its their primary meat caliber, and they use military ball ammo for most of their shooting. They are subistance hunters, literally making a living of hunting. One of their sons uses a 5.56 AK for his caribou rifle. Heimo Korth uses a 22-250 for his main hunting rifle subsistance living in the ANWR area.

Most guides I've heard of would prefer their hunters to use whatever caliber rifle they shoot best, though I'm sure they like to see someone that can shoot a 375 well. Phil Shoemaker, bear guide, used a 30-06 with 220 gr Nosler Partition loads for his bear gun for a while, among others, up to 458.

 

[Ramblinman]

No matter what the bullet diameter is ... If you dont hit the heart lung or CNS it will take a long time to die .. Karimojo Bell (spelling) used to dispatch elephants with a 7x57. If you look closely at the FBI DATA penetration is more similar than you would expect especially with modern bullets -a 9mm, 40 cal and 45 are closer than you might expect. The problem with big calibers is we tend to have an adverse liking for the recoil and subsequently shoot less. Remember it was the FBI that ditched the 10mm for the 40 s&w because it was difficulty shooting. Addressing a bear will be very dynamic - the most important factor will be to get rounds on target and more importantly in to the vitals so it will die after a few minutes of chewing on your head

recently I have had the opportunity to shoot a bear and spray a bear - The spray was WAY more effective - this said I like to carry a firearm

At the end of the day my 375 is not conducive to a hike on our eastern slopes where Mr Grizzly might want to eat me - but my Kimber Montana 308 is .... And so is my guide gun. - if it was lawful I would Carry a revolver - prob 41 mag all the time

 

[Advmoto18]

I certainly didn't mean to imply 5.56, 7.62 or any caliber for that matter will not kill game. I stated, it wasn't their intended purpose. 5.56x45 and 7.62x39 are hardly comprable to the 30-06. The 30-06 will likely be the only caliber with such a versatile application. I still shoot my made in 1954 Model 70 in 30-06; a truly timeless firearm!


Indigenous subsistence hunters aren't exactly like the majority of urbanites spending weekends or a few weeks out of the year in bear country.


The 375HH is actually considered a "mild" recoil rifle! Most folks are in fear of the 375HH simply because of stories and have likely never shot a 375HH.


The Kimber Montana 308 with syn stock weighs in at 6#13oz
The Blaser R8 Professional Synthetic in 375HH weighs 6# 11oz
Both are near identical in OAL. Yet, hugely different terminal ballistics.
BUT, you can purchase 7 Kimbers for the price of 1 Blaser! Yet, with the Blaser, you have the ability to swap out differents barrels in over 20 calibers.


While I can't say there isn't one, I have never run across a PH/G in Kodiak who carries anything smaller then a 375HH.



Not to get into a 40SW/FBI discussion, I will simply paste this comment from Buford....

"From SSA Buford Boone recently retired supervisor of the FBI BRF"

"The FBI has put out a PRE-SOLICITATION NOTICE of a proposed requirement for various commercial "OFF THE SHELF" semi-automatic pistols chambered to fire a 9mm Luger cartridge as defined by SAAMI.

WHY would they do that? Perhaps it is because they are moving to the 9mm Luger platform.

In anticipation of someone whining "What would Buford say about this?", I'd like to make it publicly known that it has my FULL SUPPORT. Yes, I think it is the right thing to do.

Without getting into the weeds, a full power .40 is a great cartridge. Unfortunately, most shooters and many pistols can't actually handle a full power .40. Put a problematic pistol in the hands of a problematic shooter and you've got guaranteed catastrophe.

The .40 can be downloaded so that it is easier to shoot. This has been done more than once. As data showed, the downloaded .40 was no better (in some cases worse) than some 9mm Luger loadings. Remember, these ain't your Grandaddy's 9s.

Don't believe it? To quote John Adams: "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."

There is no good reason to issue a cartridge that, in the same size pistol, gives equal terminal performance but less bullets.

Then there is the overwhelming amount of problems of .40 caliber systems. They've been hashed out here and elsewhere.

This switch simply makes sense.

No, I'm not a .40 hater. I carry one almost every day, loaded with full power ammo. I'd happily switch to a 9 and drive on.

So far as the more powerful cartridges go, my personal opinion is that nobody should even be allowed to carry them unless they are able to consistently max out the qualification course. I'd far rather go to work with a 98-100% Agent carrying a 9 than an 80% Agent carrying a .40 or .45. I once (OK, more than once) told people that carried the cool guns: "You know, carrying that but not consistently shooting 98-100 is kind of like driving your Daddy's Corvette but stalling at the traffic light cause you really don't know how to work a clutch".

A good shooter can shoot anything. Unfortunately, the ranks of LE are not necessarily filled with "good" shooters."




Rarely is it the tool, but, rather the human imploying the tool.

And no warrior, LEO, or trainer worth his salt would argue anything less. Better to put a 10 rounds of 9mm in the X ring then 7 out of 10 40SW.

Sadly, many LEOs never draw their weapon until it is time to requal. And these people carry the sidearm as their primary defensive tool everyday!

I didn't mention bear spray in my revious posts because it wasn't related to calibers and firearms. But, I carry bear spray as well simply because of jurisdictional issues transporting/carrying weapons can sometimes be problematic.

 

[Advmoto18]

I received a few PM asking how to induce stress at the range.

Pat McNamara is a former warrior, now trainer, spent nearly 20 years at the tip of the spear. Now an old, retired guy, he is down the road a bit from me and trains at a nearby range.

Not only is "Mac" a great trainer, but, also in pretty decent shape for a old retired guy. He has some great ideas how to induce physical stress affecting respiratory, heart rate and blood psi. Sadly, many square ranges don't allow this kind of training, they somehow perceive it to be unsafe. There is a nearby range that even considers drawing for the holster and engaging multiple targets to be "unsafe". You don't want to spend your coin training at these ranges! Train like you fight, fight like you train! Even if its a big bear charging!

Grid with Bag
Holster and Hoist
Running and Gunning

These are just a few vids Mac has posted.

Its all about developing mindset and becoming more proficient with whatever weapon/caliber you choose to carry/shoot.

Now to be only to shoot as well as Mac whilst under extreme stress! Perhaps in my next life

 

[Ramblinman]

Sooooo back to the spray debate - how many hikers Will actually train with spray? Draw and reholster in the basement? Point and shoot? Dry fire? Prob not anyone.

Incidentally just recently the plastic mechanism on top of the spray canister broke off when I put my pack down. There may be an argument that the spray canister is not as durable as a firearm and that it could potentially not serviceable when u really need it.

 

[highz]

I can tell you of one person who has practiced in the field with bear spray - me. When a can of spray reaches its expiration date, keep it for practice. One of the manufacturers also makes a practice canister. I think it is the "Counter Assault" brand.

Given a choice, I would rather deter a bear than kill it.

Sooooo back to the spray debate - how many hikers Will actually train with spray? Draw and reholster in the basement? Point and shoot? Dry fire? Prob not anyone.

Incidentally just recently the plastic mechanism on top of the spray canister broke off when I put my pack down. There may be an argument that the spray canister is not as durable as a firearm and that it could potentially not serviceable when u really need it.

 

[N'kwala]

Strange to relate I've had the top break off a bear spray cannister, too. In griz country, no less, although I was actually about to use it on a rotweiler that was charging me. I'd guess that in addition to practicing drawing (which I do) it's probably a real good idea to check the condition of the spray device. I'd not be able to address whether the spray cannister is less durable -- I've certainly heard of firearms jamming, too.

Me, I'm gonna stick with the bear spray, but I do now kinda wiggle the spraying doodad before I head into bear country. .

 

[iowahiker]

We have read everything we could find on how to use bear spray which we carry frequently and concluded not to "draw" our bear spray first but to have it facing forward on our hip belts and first focus on getting the safety off. Drawing comes next if time allows.

 

[Ramblinman]

All very good points - I also test fire mine once a year - down wind. Just to make sure it's operational.

The little black bear I did spray btw we both got contaminated because I had to deploy the spray In to the wind. It worked like a charm though.

 

[Ted]

When a can of spray reaches its expiration date, keep it for practice.

I good idea. We will do that before our next Yellowstone trip.

The little black bear I did spray btw we both got contaminated because I had to deploy the spray In to the wind.

Ouch! You have to do what you have to do, but that sucks. How far forward were you able to spray into the wind? I understand the efectiveness on a bear is short - maybe a couple of minutes. Just long enough to get out of the situation. I have never experienced tear gas or pepper spray. Kind of curious what your experience was like. What were the effects on you and how long did they last?

 

[Ramblinman]

The little bear was 6ft away from me - he was curious and would not leave - I could not leave as I had business in the area to tend to - he did come back about 10 mins later wiping his face wih his paw.

Me I just weathered the storm and left the contaminated area - because I did not get the full brunt of the bear spray deployment I could work thru the ordeal.

I would suggest that it is very likely anyone who deploys bear spray will likely feel some of the effects of the OC spray.

 

[Ramblinman]

..... To answer you question the effects of the spray irritates nose eyes and throat - causes sneezing burning runny nose and watery eyes. Best not to rub your eyes. Flush with water if available

 

[Malamute]

Lots of words.....

...I didn't mention bear spray in my revious posts because it wasn't related to calibers and firearms. But, I carry bear spray as well simply because of jurisdictional issues transporting/carrying weapons can sometimes be problematic.

^ ^ Good post.

I can tell you of one person who has practiced in the field with bear spray - me. When a can of spray reaches its expiration date, keep it for practice. One of the manufacturers also makes a practice canister. I think it is the "Counter Assault" brand.

Given a choice, I would rather deter a bear than kill it.

I was at an airport in the northern Rockies a few years ago, they had a large drop box to leave bear spray canisters in, since they arent allowed on airplanes, even as checked baggage. The sign said something about the cans would be used for train ing in bear spray use. I never looked into it, but it may be a good idea to take one of those classes, even if they are oriented towards beginner level understanding of bear spray. It could give some good practice time.

We have read everything we could find on how to use bear spray which we carry frequently and concluded not to "draw" our bear spray first but to have it facing forward on our hip belts and first focus on getting the safety off. Drawing comes next if time allows.

Thats my understanding of how to keep them, so the canister can be fired from the carrier if need be.

Neither pepper spray or guns are a guaranteed answer. I think both have very good, sound rational for use, though pepper is safer in most peoples hands that arent very gun oriented and fairly well experienced in their use. I prefer to have both for the most part. I'd truly rather not shoot a bear if it was avoidable. I realize at times it isnt avoidable, and also want that other option in the worst case situation, or possibly to help someone else. Pepper is very good up close, a good hand with a heavy pistol or a rifle can reach much farther than the pepper. Its all about options. The more choices you have, I believe the best for all involved including the bears, in the big picture.

 

[Squatch]

^ ^

Neither pepper spray or guns are a guaranteed answer. I think both have very good, sound rational for use, though pepper is safer in most peoples hands that arent very gun oriented and fairly well experienced in their use. I prefer to have both for the most part. I'd truly rather not shoot a bear if it was avoidable. I realize at times it isnt avoidable, and also want that other option in the worst case situation, or possibly to help someone else. Pepper is very good up close, a good hand with a heavy pistol or a rifle can reach much farther than the pepper. Its all about options. The more choices you have, I believe the best for all involved including the bears, in the big picture.

Very well said!

 

[Ramblinman]

Malmute-"....Pepper is very good up close, a good hand with a heavy pistol or a rifle can reach much farther than the pepper. Its all about options. The more choices you have, I believe the best for all involved including the bears, in the big picture. "

I will preface my remarks with I AM NOT AN EXPERT - but I have thought about this a lot being that I frequent an area with LOTS of Grizzly Bears - I have read that professionals wait until a charging animal is in close before discharging a firearm and may even shoot in to the animal by kneeling down if possible - being that the animal is moving so fast you will likely only get one or two shots - so the idea is to get the charging animal in tight and make those bullets count. Need big stones for that tactic.

We have read everything we could find on how to use bear spray which we carry frequently and concluded not to "draw" our bear spray first but to have it facing forward on our hip belts and first focus on getting the safety off. Drawing comes next if time allows.

... I have always played in out in my head that the charge MAY occur from another direction other than in front of me which MAY require a draw from the holster to address a more dynamic situation i.e.: left or right or above if you are climbing in the rocks which I do. I don't usually hike on the trails. The reading I have done says that some times the person does not even see it coming and it happens quick It has been described as like being hit by a truck - Sooooo does this mean that you hike with that little safety tab of your Bear Spray and risk contamination with an accidental discharge? Or do you remove the safety tab to address a fast moving bear from a direction other than your front?

Personally I leave mine on.

A revolver appeals to me because I shoot regularly and there MAY be an opportunity to engage the bear while it is eating you- drawing and shooting in the torso or head. Hopefully their is some muscle memory that will let me draw and shoot.

BTW I agree keeping the spray in the holster is an excellent technique in so far as situation permits ... but we should prepare for all eventualities.

I am splitting hairs here I know