FWC Winter camping

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Adding the foam made a big difference in the amount of cold air that came in near the corner sections and the nose area (that's the section with the most tuck tape).

As you can see it also made it perfectly level between the slide out portion and the base section. There is no longer a 1/2" lump under the mattress.

As others have mentioned adding something like Hypervent on top of what you see here would also aid in reducing moisture between the mattress and cabover section. For myself, moisture under the mattress has not been an issue. I live in a cold dry climate. I also mentioned I always sleep with a window about half open, no matter how cold it is.

BTW, if you lift the carpet at the nose portion, you will find the wiring for your marker lights. I changed my lights and ran a dedicated ground wire to each light, No more grounding issues.
 
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"Adding the foam made a big difference in the amount of cold air that came in near the corner sections and the nose area (that's the section with the most tuck tape).

As you can see it also made it perfectly level between the slide out portion and the base section. There is no longer a 1/2" lump under the mattress.

As others have mentioned adding something like Hypervent on top of what you see here would also aid in reducing moisture between the mattress and cabover section. For myself, moisture under the mattress has not been an issue. I live in a cold dry climate. I also mentioned I always sleep with a window about half open, no matter how cold it is.

BTW, if you lift the carpet at the nose portion, you will find the wiring for your marker lights. I changed my lights and ran a dedicated ground wire to each light, No more grounding issues."

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Interesting...those 'black puzzle pieces of foam' I have as floor runners in my shop..I can't tell what those red bands are?

We never use the pull out because we don't need the xtra space and with it pushed in, it is a lot easier to climb and down into the bed area from the seat cushions... [side dinette...'16 Hawk]

"Grounding issues"?
 
The "red bands" are Tuck Tape (sheathing tape).
It's a vapor sealing tape, typically used on seams of foam insulation boards.

link to Tuck Tape.

The grounding issues I was referring to is how the factory marker lights are individually grounded to the aluminum skin of the camper. It's a crappy connection that requires ongoing maintenance (or hitting the lights with a broom). Grounding them inside to a dry corrosion free environment is much more reliable.

I should have taken a picture of that while I was at it, but I hate taking photos while I'm working. I applaud those of you who do take photos during a process.
 
Wandering Sagebrush said:
Ventilation is your best option. Wipe up condensation before you lower the top.
The amount of condensation is overwhelming, as well as ice build up between the outer layer and the insulation pack. We wipe down ever day before and after but the sheets/mattress and pillow at the front edge get soaked. We have cross flow ventilation but are also trying to heel the heat in when it’s blowing 20+ and 6 degrees outside. IMG_9200.JPG
 
Bill D said:
Yup, ventilation is key.

I've camped at -31C -23.8F with no condensation issues. I open one window about 1/3 to 1/2 way. I also open the fantastic fan vent a crack to allow air to flow through.
i guess we are a bunch of mouth breathers. Two dogs, the wife and myself. I’ll try more ventilation.
 
Anyone just sleep outside ?

BWSracing, interesting about the ice build up behind the arctic pack. That's got to really suck when it melts. I've often wondered why FWC hasn't gone with a multi layer soft side. Surely that would be some improvement. I'm guessing interference with the lift panels but IDK. Maybe it's cost or sales simply don't warrant it as most buyers might expect these to be 3 season campers at best.

I think condensation can occur in a number of circumstances. And there is not always one sure fire solution. Lots of varying experiences reported here and condition variables like temps, humidity, air circulation and replacement, number of bodies inside etc.

But I always come back to the elephant in the winter camping room, lack of adequate insulation.
 
My first FWC 83 Fleet the liner had insulation in the liner. Mine leaked and water got into this insulation and would take long time to dry out. They might have went away from this design because of that problem and having results of mold etc...
 
^ Interesting, that jives with me thinking I had read sometime about a liner design used ages ago, maybe it was in the lift patent description Craig posted.

If not insulated, I wonder if a breathable fabric might be an idea...

And, just to add some thoughts on air circulation ... Like other users - I imagine - I have a sequence to the places I look for condensation in the morning. If present, the accumulation typically follows a progressive order of locations. For me, the first place is on the cabover vinyl, at my feet when sleeping. If there is no condensate here, there will almost never be any found anywhere else inside, even on the vinyl wall closest to our heads.

I don't think this foot area is caused directly by bodily evaporation but rather from the general interior atmosphere condensing at that spot (when the sidewall is cold enough). Also, on occasion when we have left a water jug or similar bulky object on a rear countertop and placed close to a corner, there will sometimes be condensate behind it, on the vinyl. My theory is condensation can occur more readily in both these spots because of poor air circulation - relative to more freely exposed surfaces. For this reason I think sleeping NS might be helpful. And also, perhaps, forced air movement along the camper interior walls.

... and on air replacement/exchange... I think, when using a furnace overnight, the ideal would be to heat the camper atmosphere, with the warming air absorbing interior moisture, then have that moist air exhausted. This to be replaced with new outside air (hopefully drier but certainly colder) entering the camper warmed by the furnace; this by employing some degree of outside air mix into the furnace's cold air intake.

I don't know if the newer campers are airtight enough, or the blower motor powerful enough, that the furnace could pressurize the interior enough to force exhaust through the ceiling vents. Most users are probably relying on natural heat convection (if that's the correct term usage) with a combination of window, turnbuckle hatch and ceiling vent open. But I don't think the standard, and fantastic fan exterior covers are particularly well suited for venting during rainy or windy conditions and I often feel cold air flowing down thru the vent on calm nights. So some degree of forced air movement, with make up air would be helpful, IMO.
 
klahanie,

The Tan sidewall fabric used prior to the grey vinyl had a fuzzy interior flocking type surface. That was the stuff in my 1980's Keystone. It would hold water and discolor. Worse it got brittle and developed pinholes. I have seen several other campers that had this and most had leaking issues from pinholes and tears in the old fabric Worse most had obvious signs of water and mold staining on the interior surfaces from condensation. In pretty much every one of the old campers that had water damage it was most obvious in the front and rear corners.

I would like to see a new lift panel design that has openings to allow access to the fabric behind the panels to wipe off moisture, etc. as that is a place that is hard to wipe dry and is a good place for mold to grow.

Condensation remains a challenge but the newer Grey vinyl seems to hold up better.

Craig
 
klahanie said:
Anyone just sleep outside ?

BWSracing, interesting about the ice build up behind the arctic pack. That's got to really suck when it melts. I've often wondered why FWC hasn't gone with a multi layer soft side. Surely that would be some improvement. I'm guessing interference with the lift panels but IDK. Maybe it's cost or sales simply don't warrant it as most buyers might expect these to be ......

But I always come back to the elephant in the winter camping room, lack of adequate insulation.
When I was looking at which camper to buy this was one thing I was wondering about with FWC's. I ended up going with a Hallmark in part because they have a three piece soft wall. The inside and outside fabric are some sort of vinyl fabric with a thin foam layer between. It can still get cold inside but it has to be better..
 
smlobx said:
When I was looking at which camper to buy this was one thing I was wondering about with FWC's. I ended up going with a Hallmark in part because they have a three piece soft wall. The inside and outside fabric are some sort of vinyl fabric with a thin foam layer between. It can still get cold inside but it has to be better..
Better? Depends, I would assume; like ice found behind the Arctic Pack, any good insulating "soft wall" will result in ice forming on inside of the exterior vinyl skin when inside of camper is warm, and thus carrying moisture, and vinyl behind insulating wall is cold like the exterior...old ice/condensation on water glass created by same conditions...our Arctic Packs add insulation [very small amount] but will not stop moisture condensing out when temperature differential and humidity reach a critical point....

I concur with so many on this thread....vented circulation is the key to carrying moisture outside the FWC to avoid most condensation inside the camper.. but this creates the necessity for use of propane to heat interior, powered vents to outside and electrical current to run furnace and vents..and honestly I doubt under really adverse moisture/temperature conditions you could circulate enough air behind the Arctic Pack , or under a mattress [etc], to eliminate the condensation...no free lunch. Our FWCs will never be free from interior condensation...hell, most homes are not either...


Speaking of which...Do ya think interior shower option introduces excessive amount of moisture to the interior of a FWC?
 
Wallowa said:
Better? Depends, I would assume; like ice found behind the Arctic Pack, any good insulating "soft wall" will result in ice forming on inside of the exterior vinyl skin when inside of camper is warm, and thus carrying moisture, and vinyl behind insulating wall is cold like the exterior...old ice/condensation on water glass created by same conditions...our Arctic Packs add insulation [very small amount] but will not stop moisture condensing out when temperature differential and humidity reach a critical point....

I concur with so many on this thread....vented circulation is the key to carrying moisture outside the FWC to avoid most condensation inside the camper.. but this creates the necessity for use of propane to heat interior, powered vents to outside and electrical current to run furnace and vents..and honestly I doubt under really adverse moisture/temperature conditions you could circulate enough air behind the Arctic Pack , or under a mattress [etc], to eliminate the condensation...no free lunch. Our FWCs will never be free from interior condensation...hell, most homes are not either...


Speaking of which...Do ya think interior shower option introduces excessive amount of moisture to the interior of a FWC?
Re: shower: Sure, but it’s acute not chronic
 
Wallowa said:
Better? Depends, I would assume; like ice found behind the Arctic Pack, any good insulating "soft wall" will result in ice forming on inside of the exterior vinyl skin when inside of camper is warm, and thus carrying moisture, and vinyl behind insulating wall is cold like the exterior...old ice/condensation on water glass created by same conditions...our Arctic Packs add insulation [very small amount] but will not stop moisture condensing out when temperature differential and humidity reach a critical point....
I was thinking a sealed, multi layer, soft wall fabric, both sides of which are both an air barrier and a moisture barrier. eg outer vinyl + insulating material + inner vinyl. This would replace, not supplement, the single thickness vinyl as the soft wall construction.

Under the right conditions condensation or ice would still form on the side facing the interior of the camper, in the same fashion as the current single thickness vinyl version. The difference, as I see it, would be the range of those conditions. Imagine, to use the glass analogy, a double pane vs single pane window in a home kitchen/bath application. EDIT... in cold weather conditions !
 
Wallowa said:
Better? Depends, I would assume; like ice found behind the Arctic Pack, any good insulating "soft wall" will result in ice forming on inside of the exterior vinyl skin when inside of camper is warm, and thus carrying moisture, and vinyl behind insulating wall is cold like the exterior...old ice/condensation on water glass created by same conditions...our Arctic Packs add insulation [very small amount] but will not stop moisture condensing out when temperature differential and humidity reach a critical point....?
Wallowa, first of all please understand that I am in no way criticizing FWC for their construction techniques. All campers are an exercise in compromise, just like any multifaceted project.
The FWC Thermal Pack is a breathable panel. This also means that moisture also passes through it and then hits the cold exterior panel which causes condensation.
By having two layers of vinyl (like) fabric with a thin layer of foam between them there is no transfer of moisture through the fabric and the foam reduces (by a small amount) the thermal transfer. While there is still the potential of condensation it is minimized compared to the Thermal Pack.
The coldest we have camped at so far is 21 degrees F and I know that many here have camped at much lower temps but in our limited experience the only condensation we had was on the three roof vents. I will be cutting some 2" foam to fit inside the vents which will give us R-10. I also insulated our floor which had no insulation (I think most truck campers just have 3/4" plywood there) by gluing 1 1/2" foam between the skids on the bottom side of the camper. There is a thread of the here on WTW showing how I did it.

I hope this helps...
 
klahanie said:
I was thinking a sealed, multi layer, soft wall fabric, both sides of which are both an air barrier and a moisture barrier. eg outer vinyl + insulating material + inner vinyl. This would replace, not supplement, the single thickness vinyl as the soft wall construction.

Under the right conditions condensation or ice would still form on the side facing the interior of the camper, in the same fashion as the current single thickness vinyl version. The difference, as I see it, would be the range of those conditions. Imagine, to use the glass analogy, a double pane vs single pane window in a home kitchen/bath application. EDIT... in cold weather conditions !
Odd you would mention double pane window....we live in a very dry climate and our double paned windows accumulate ice on the inside on cold nights behind thermal shades...as to what you described, air will still be between the outside vinyl of the camper wall and the outside of the soft wall fabric...hence ice/condensation will form...the way I view it is that with a large temperature differential between any two surfaces inside our campers; ice/moisture will form on the colder surface...only real way to slow or stop this is to have the outer wall have sufficient insulation so that the inner surface of that insulation stays the same temp as the inside air...ain't going to happen in a camper and often not even in homes...

Steady circulation of heated air that is vented to outside is the only way we can really slow down the condensation on inner surfaces in our FWCs....but hey, I could be wrong! :D
 
If I was gonna camp in the cold for more than a night I would consider putting reflectix on the outside and inside of the vinyl top. I know somewhere here someone did the outside to protect from heat. I think t would also help with the cold. Velcro is your friend :)
 
Happyjax said:
If I was gonna camp in the cold for more than a night I would consider putting reflectix on the outside and inside of the vinyl top. I know somewhere here someone did the outside to protect from heat. I think t would also help with the cold. Velcro is your friend :)
Velcro and duct tape!
Where we would be without them...
 
Happyjax has the right idea in moving the cold surface, where condensation can form from moist air, to the outside of the pop-up wall. Either warm the interior surface enough to keep it above the dew point, or add insulation to the outside, or remove the moist air through ventilation.

I remember a winter spent in 100 mile House BC in a cabin with 2x4 walls insulated with sawdust and covered by wood paneling inside. The nail heads holding the paneling to the 2x4's would get very cold in -40 degrees. Each morning there would be a quarter inch frost ball on each nail head even though the cabin was well heated. Our breath was enough to provide sufficient moisture.

Paul
 

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