Revisiting heavy duty trucks

[smlobx]

Bill- glad you made it back from your trip. We should catch up...

 

[Bombsight]

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I did HAVE to add a Helwig Big Wig rear sway bar. My F-350 did not have the FX4 package, so it did not come with a rear sway bar. A rear sway bar is a must with a camper in the bed IMO.

Those are the only upgrades I've performed on my 2016 F-350.

How much difference did the Big Wig make? I'm about to install one.

 

[ntsqd]

Ours is a 3/4t truck and I'm probably alone in this, but I don't feel a need for a 1t, a rear sway bar, or air springs. The stock springs under our '96 CTD have worked fine once we put a set of application specific
Bilstein 5165's under the truck. I did ask the local 4x4 shop to do something about the under-ride type over-load leaves as they made the rear ride like a buckboard. With them now more or less out of the picture the truck rides much, much better and sits level. 50-70 mph over washboard at pavement tire pressure is no big deal, can do it all day long and never feel out of control or that we're beating up on things.

As to no rear sway-bar, I learned to drive in a Saab 96. When driven hard those heel over like a sailboat. A little lean in the corners does not bother me and I've never felt like the transient response was going to put me out of control. The truck is pretty "flat" at the edge of cornering traction, can push it over a little and pull it back fairly easily. Unlike, say, my old Pinto Wagon which when it went over the edge was nearly unrecoverable.

 

[Wandering Sagebrush]

I did HAVE to add a Helwig Big Wig rear sway bar. My F-350 did not have the FX4 package, so it did not come with a rear sway bar. A rear sway bar is a must with a camper in the bed IMO.

Like you, we have a newer F350 without the FX4 package. When we had our Grandby, I did not feel that airbags or a sway bar were needed. I think that camper weighed about 1400-1500 pounds. We sold the Grandby and bought a Northern Lite (more room makes for happy bride) with a dry weight of 2700 pounds. For starters we added airbags to level out the truck. It did a good job of leveling things, but there was still a lot of sway. We then added the Big Wig, and it made a world of difference.

On the topic of biodiesel, my old 7.3 loved it, but with the 6.7 I avoid it unless there are no other options.

 

[CamperCamper]

A one ton used truck will be more difficult to source than a 3/4 ton. You will find more choices in the 3/4 ton trucks and have an easier time sourcing the "exact" model you are seeking. But, if you are patient and willing to consider traveling or purchasing long distance, you will find either eventually.

Full Disclosure: I provide this information with over 30 years in the trenches as a used vehicle wholesale dealer. Figure out what you need/want, remain patient, search vigilantly and you will be rewarded.

 

[Vic Harder]

Ours is a 3/4t truck and I'm probably alone in this, but I don't feel a need for a 1t, a rear sway bar, or air springs. The stock springs under our '96 CTD have worked fine once we put a set of application specific Bilstein 5165's under the truck. 50-70 mph over washboard at pavement tire pressure is no big deal, can do it all day long and never feel out of control or that we're beating up on things.

Not to hijak the thread... but....

I have a 3/4 as well with a pretty well equipped Hawk Shell. Handles very well, but there is a tad of "wallow" when going through dips on the road at highway speeds that I would like to eliminate. There are new Bilstein 5100 on it now, but they seem to struggle in this ONE area of ride control Can you compare the "off the shelf" 5100 to the "Application Specific" 5165's?

Cornering is almost flat as is, so no need for a sway bar.

Keep in mind I am coming from driving an M3 and very tricked out Miata's, so my handling expectations are very high.

 

[dharte]

Not to hijak the thread... but....

I have a 3/4 as well with a pretty well equipped Hawk Shell. Handles very well, but there is a tad of "wallow" when going through dips on the road at highway speeds that I would like to eliminate. There are new Bilstein 5100 on it now, but they seem to struggle in this ONE area of ride control Can you compare the "off the shelf" 5100 to the "Application Specific" 5165's?

Cornering is almost flat as is, so no need for a sway bar.

Keep in mind I am coming from driving an M3 and very tricked out Miata's, so my handling expectations are very high.

On my F250 I replaced the rear Bilstein 4600's with adjustable Rancho 9000's. Cranked up to max (1-9 range), they got rid of most of the wallowing on dips and uneven roads. I crank them down when off-roading.

 

[Happyjax]

Okie Dokie,

Since we are revisiting I have a couple questions.

From what I have seen there is a difference between the 250's and 350's. The rear leaf springs have more leafs in the 350 than the 250. That was the main reason I was considering a 250 with the camper option. It adds a spring in the rear and does something to the front....heavier springs maybe?

Soooo finding one with a camper package is tough and usually not what I want. So I have been scouring for 350 gassers in the Lariat package with the off road stuff.

They have been nearly impossible to find. For some reason most dealers assume if you want a 350 gasser you want Oxford White XL. Ugh

So today I stumbled on a nice Lariat Crew Cab 8ft box in another state of course..... It is near a wildlife refuge so I may bite the bullet and go look at it and hopefully get some good shooting in also.

Now a couple questions...yes finally

Should I find what I want without the off road stuff and super duper shocks and sway bars is that something I can get done without voiding any warranties and is it really necessary for a pop up, possibly an Alaskan?

Is the 350 the best option as the 250's are more available especially in gas.

Does anyone have the winning lottery numbers for this week so I can forego worrying about any of this crap......

Thank you for your kind attention

 

[smlobx]

?.....
Now a couple questions...yes finally

Should I find what I want without the off road stuff and super duper shocks and sway bars is that something I can get done without voiding any warranties and is it really necessary for a pop up, possibly an Alaskan?

Is the 350 the best option as the 250's are more available especially in gas.

Does anyone have the winning lottery numbers for this week so I can forego worrying about any of this crap......

Thank you for your kind attention

Here"s my very humble opinion....
The stock shocks on a SD are junk anyway so I would not let it concern you in your purchase. Buy some Bilsteins r other quality shocks and call it a day. You can also add the Helwig sway bar easily.
The 350 is the best option imho but you can make a 250 work.
The winning lottery numbers are ...3, 18, 27, 43, 44, 56 and the powerball is 11

 

[Wandering Sagebrush]

Hi Jackie,

I think that (for most popup campers) just adding air bags to level it would be all you would need for a F250, but if you find you have sway, then a Helwig Big Wig sway bar would be next. My Ford dealer put the sway bar on my truck, and I asked the service manager about warranty issues prior to doing that. He said we would be covered. Even though I recommend a F350, the F250 would be perfectly fine. If you can get the off road package and camper option, do!!!!

My 2 cents worth, and I am sticking to it... Unless I change my mind.

Steve

Post script: Do remember that a long bed CC is a very long truck...

 

[ntsqd]

No like vehicle experience with 5100 vs. 5165 Bilsteins. Once in a while the truck will wallow. I do not recall an instance of more than 2 oscillations of decaying amplitude. I've figured the valving isn't perfect, but short of a bunch of tuning for little gain I've not worried about it.

One large difference between the two is the 5165's have a remote reservoir. Doesn't speak to valving, but does speak to fade resistance.

Literally every vehicle that I've put Bilsteins (or Fox's) on has benefited. On none have I felt any desire to remove them and replace them with non deflective disc valve type dampers. I have had three experiences with owning vehicles with Rancho dampers on them. Two of them were bad. One got Bilsteins and one is about to. The third worked surprisingly well so I left it alone.

 

[dharte]

The F250 and F350 have the same springs. The F350 has an overload spring in the rear. The F250 does not have the overload unless ordered with a heavier suspension group (i.e., camper package). In that case, that there is a heavier suspension package, the springs, including the overload spring, are the same. The only difference then becomes the block height under the rear springs. The front springs are always the same between F250/F350. The fronts only change between option groups or engine, but not because of whether it is F250 or F350. An F250 and F350 ordered with the same engine or options will have the same front springs, the same rear springs and if ordered with the camper package (as an example) will both have the same overload springs and sway bars.

The "off road" shocks with the off road package are just Rancho "branded" shocks. They are made by the same company either way (Tenneco if I remember right). If you're going off road, the value of the off road package is the skid plates, not the suspension components (shocks).

At 50k miles and noticing uneven tire wear I replaced my factory "Rancho" shocks with Bilstein 4600.'s. Two of the OEM shocks were completely shot. The Bilstein's work great up front but when I switched the rears to the Rancho 9000 shocks, the wallowing was significantly reduced. They are very beefy and the ability to quickly adjust them is a plus. I also upgraded the steering stabilizer to a Bilstein unit and have much less bump steer.

 

[Hausa]

The F250 and F350 have the same springs. The F350 has an overload spring in the rear. The F250 does not have the overload unless ordered with a heavier suspension group (i.e., camper package). In that case, that there is a heavier suspension package, the springs, including the overload spring, are the same. The only difference then becomes the block height under the rear springs. The front springs are always the same between F250/F350. The fronts only change between option groups or engine, but not because of whether it is F250 or F350. An F250 and F350 ordered with the same engine or options will have the same front springs, the same rear springs and if ordered with the camper package (as an example) will both have the same overload springs and sway bars.

The "off road" shocks with the off road package are just Rancho "branded" shocks. They are made by the same company either way (Tenneco if I remember right). If you're going off road, the value of the off road package is the skid plates, not the suspension components (shocks).

Great info.

What's the utility of the greater block height in the 350 (vs the 250 with camper suspension)? Also, would it be significantly more expensive to add aftermarket skid plates if the off road package is not available? Labor must come into play. Thanks.

 

[Hausa]

1: No need for a 1 ton for a FWC. My Chevy HD2500 with stock suspension handles my 2,000 lb loaded Hawk great and at the scales I am 700 pounds under max payload. You mentioned the possibility of heavier campers though so I would definitely go 1 ton.

2: Gas or diesel....a can of worms opening. I live at altitude and cross the 12,000' passes here with ease in my gasser, plenty of power and my mileage ain't bad. Plus I saved 9 grand on the purchase price. With a bigger camper and dragging a trailer with toys I would go diesel but as others have mentioned the new ones scare me.

3: Brand....bigger can opening. I love my Chevy

Kudos for considering payload when choosing a truck!

Not sure if you've seen this article but there's a discrepancy btw listed payload and 'camper capacity' that can be an issue with the 2500 and heavier campers: http://truckcamperadventure.com/2014/09/a-chevy-silverado-payload-warning/

 

[Riverrunner]

If you're not in a hurry just order a rig then get what you want on it. For small pop ups a 250/2500 gasser will have enough payload. A diesel will be pushing it. If you've seen my thread I got the 350 for a number of reasons, one being I wanted the big tranny and lower gearing. Not too concerned with MPG's as I don't think the 6.2 can do any worse than my current 7.3. I'll have a 48gal tank so I'll have plenty of range. Good luck.

 

[rotti]

Not sure if you've seen this article but there's a discrepancy btw listed payload and 'camper capacity' that can be an issue with the 2500 and heavier campers: http://truckcamperadventure.com/2014/09/a-chevy-silverado-payload-warning/

When GM lists payload they assume all seat belts are in use at 150 pounds each. That could subtract as much as 750 pounds from the camper capacity.

The only way to get the correct answer is a trip to the scales and a look at your vehicles max GVWR. As an example my Chevy has a GVWR of 9500 pounds and scaled at 8980 with the Hawk fully loaded, wet, some bikes, two humans and a 110 pound dog.

On edit, this is also how I learned that my 740 pound WET Hawk really weighed 1,340 pounds DRY and EMPTY.

 

[Happyjax]

Yea I don't think that Hawk has weighed 750 lbs since it was in it's teens.....lol

 

[klahanie]

On edit, this is also how I learned that my 740 pound WET Hawk really weighed 1,340 pounds DRY and EMPTY.

Don't want to side track but that's crazy ... to be off by 600# (80%) for a camper that many are buying because they're supposed to be light weight ! It must drive Alaskan Campers nuts ... Anyhow, it is a good reminder of how you never know when might need additional payload capacity, which is an advantage of a one ton.

As to the 3/4 advantage, CamperCamper makes an excellent point on availability and thereby presumably lower cost. The Ram rear springs were mentioned and I'll add, going forward for pre-owned, that 2017 gas F250s have a trans with more gears which might benefit drive ability and fuel consumption. For sure spring rate will affect ride for a given wt so that might be something to research on the other brands. Fords have been mentioned, I'll add a link for Ford specs which I find of interest. Info on GVWRs, springs, axle ratings (incl axle shafts) etc can be found for quite a few model years. I think Ram has something similar, not sure about GMC/Chevy.

https://www.fleet.ford.com/truckbbas/topics/techspec.html


As to best diesel for a camper, I can't say other than I expect all would be suitable. The GM IFS has been noted. FWIW I have observed that "enthusiasts" seem to most often own Ram for their personal vehicles and often for their work vehicle or vehicles if that is only a few. I see a lot of Fords in forestry fleets here. On the highway I see many a big travel trailers being towed by GMC/Chevys also these trucks empty on resource roads where I guess the IFS contributes to that famous Chevy ride.
Throw in regional differences and that prob all changes ...

 

[Vic Harder]

No like vehicle experience with 5100 vs. 5165 Bilsteins. Once in a while the truck will wallow. I do not recall an instance of more than 2 oscillations of decaying amplitude. I've figured the valving isn't perfect, but short of a bunch of tuning for little gain I've not worried about it.

One large difference between the two is the 5165's have a remote reservoir. Doesn't speak to valving, but does speak to fade resistance.

Literally every vehicle that I've put Bilsteins (or Fox's) on has benefited. On none have I felt any desire to remove them and replace them with non deflective disc valve type dampers. I have had three experiences with owning vehicles with Rancho dampers on them. Two of them were bad. One got Bilsteins and one is about to. The third worked surprisingly well so I left it alone.

The valving looks to be the same.

 

[ntsqd]

Could be, assuming like for like. That is, 5100's and 5165's for the same vehicle application. They're the same 2" nominal body OD.

I didn't know that you could buy a "smaller number"ed Bilstein in the aftermarket, thought 5100 was the starting point. Historically those dampers with a series number smaller than 5100 were smaller than a 2" damper body & were only available as an OEM fitted damper. Definitely not the direction to be going in with a camper carrying truck of any sort. Makes me wonder if those who criticize Bilsteins in this application, and/or have replaced them with Rauncho's, simply bought the wrong dampers. With that smaller body there won't be enough oil in the system to be effective for anything other than an always unladen mall crawler - and maybe not even then! It would be no wonder in that case as they're simply the wrong parts.