Vic's new 2012 Puma build

[Vic Harder]

Vic,

if you need any fine tuning, I’m thinking you could try a bar clamp on both sides of the bend, with your board spaced in between, might be worth a try. That would give you the clamping distance you need and is fully adjustable, and should provide needed force to bend aluminum square tubing, ever so slightly, without overdoing.

Poky

Thanks Poky. I think where it needs tweeking a bit is in the actual sheet metal. The tubing is now straight. The very slight kink is in that area right at the frame where the round horizontal tube joins the side. If you have seen the roof apart, you might know of what bits I speak. It is much better now than it was, for sure.

I did manage to get a piece of 1/2" plywood in between the rooftop and that round tube, which straightened it a lot. Is it in concours condition? No. But the side liner is now much less slack than it was.

Regarding the side liner.... I notice that new FWC have almost rigid looking side liners when the roof is up. Very different than the older models. How are they doing this? Can the side liner and/or lifting panels be adjusted to lift higher, thus eliminating slack?

 

[PokyBro]

I think the new material they use for sideliners is just different, and possibly stiffer , and or different thickness or weight. I haven’t seen it in person, but I too have noticed it doesn’t sag as much. I don’t think there is a way to adjust slack, other than when you first install. I know on mine there is slack in the middle of each side, and that is because of the bend in the roof itself with the weight and pull of the fabric along the sides causing flexing of the metal frame.

Also it might be possible the side liner material may shrink slightly over time, certainly did on the old original 80’s FWCs.

Anyhow, just my thoughts.

 

[rando]

The newer FWC sideliner is a heavy reinforced vinyl (like the material rafts are made out of). I am not sure how they get it so tight at install, but there is no user adjustment.

 

[Vic Harder]

OK, more progress. Turnbuckle doors. I wanted a better, more elegant solution than the thin sliders my campers have come with, and not use hinges like the current FWC style since those need "room" to open. Neither solution would work with my front turnbuckle doors, as they are obstructed by my over-large 30 gal water tank.

So, I discovered that a 1/2" Z-bar can be put to use for this purpose. I used extra Z-bars from my Propex install, and bought a few more from a vendor. Here is what I am talking about:

I used my table saw (router would make a cleaner cut for sure!) to shave off a midge to get a good snug fit:

This is how if snugs up:

Installed, they look like this from the inside. I used T-nuts again to provide good clamping force, and allow for multiple removals without stripping out the wood like a wood screw would do

And here is a view from the outside. I've already cut 1/2" think rigid fiberglass to fill the gap, for added insulation as well as ease in reintalling.

 

[Bill D]

Way better than the ultra thin sliders that you had before! They were very cheap.
Why would there have been an issue the doors taking room when open, if you had used a traditional hinge?

The reason I ask is I open my doors frequently for ventilation. I added a mesh screen (like many others) to keep the bugs out. My unit has an overhang from the kitchen cabinets, so they are never really "in the way" when open.

Curious...

 

[Vic Harder]

Way better than the ultra thin sliders that you had before! They were very cheap.
Why would there have been an issue the doors taking room when open, if you had used a traditional hinge?

The reason I ask is I open my doors frequently for ventilation. I added a mesh screen (like many others) to keep the bugs out. My unit has an overhang from the kitchen cabinets, so they are never really "in the way" when open.

Curious...

Bill, check out this pic...

The 5" wide, 13" long spaces on either side of the water tank are the places I have to get my hands into to fasten the turnbuckles. With the FasGun Derringers, that's doable. Not sure I could do it with regular turnbuckles. Having a door in the way would make it worse.

Plus, these are screwed down tight. No air leakage at all. I will make one turnbuckle door with screen on it so I can swap that out when I want/need to ventilate.

 

[Bill D]

I see. You'd have to Anderson Cooper arms otherwise.

 

[Vic Harder]

Question for those who have built/re-built their ceiling/roof. I notice that the very outside long edges of the camper ceiling do NOT have a wooden strip on them like all the others do. And that the resting area that this edge would be on when the top is down is foam/fleece lined. This is obviously to protect the sideliner material.

Would there be any reason to not put a strip on that outside edge? Gap, abrasion, fit?

 

[PokyBro]

Vic,

I cant see a reason putting a strip on the outside edge would be a problem, other than needing to adjust your roof clamps slightly.

I think the challenge would be in holding the ceiling material in place before adding the strip due to gravity.

when I did my ceiling, my roof was off and upside down, so I was able to pull the perforated vinyl over the edge and tuck it up under the roof metal skin. I can visualize you’re trying to do this without removing the roof, so this isn’t an option for your approach.

you certainly might be able to get one side up and put the strip in, but tightening and getting it to the other side might be the challenge. Have you considered contact cement under the fabric before the strip? I’m just wondering how you’re going to hold the ceiling material in place before adding the strip. If you were using perforate vinyl, you could possibly use a staple gun to tack down the fabric before adding the strip, but I think your using more of a cloth type fabric if I’m seeing it right. Not sure as I’ve never seen an ATC up close to see what they use for the ceiling material.

Anyhow, just thinking out loud with the above ideas. Hope that might be helpful.

Poky

 

[m.r.h.]

When I got my Keystone the previous owner had put carpet on the roof. From some old photos he had shared with me it looked like one corner had some water damage so he cut that corner out and put carpet up. It wasn't the best job and I have been wanting to take it down for a long time.

As you can see in the photo he put up wood strips up on the outer most edge of the ceiling. My only concern with it was the sharp corner that could have just been rounded off. It caused no damage. Will add likely add them in my repair.

This winter I noticed a very small leak in that same corner and decided to tear it out and start thinking about how to replace / repair. Taking the roof off to repair is my absolute last resort I haven't removed all of the carpet (unsure what the original material looks like but fingers crossed it is ok) yet but that might be a think weekend project. Here are a couple repair thoughts / ideas

1. Find matching material and glue in a patch. Put the top down with some sort of plywood contraption to keep pressure on the area while it dried
2. Remove old material and insulation and replace with rigid insulation. Glue the new material to the insulation before installing and hopefully hold everything in place by screwing new wooden strips in.
3. As you already know Reefy had fiberglass panels? I am really interested in learning more about that.
4. Do more research into repairing car headliners.

 

[Vic Harder]

Vic,

I cant see a reason putting a strip on the outside edge would be a problem, other than needing to adjust your roof clamps slightly.

I think the challenge would be in holding the ceiling material in place before adding the strip due to gravity.

when I did my ceiling, my roof was off and upside down, so I was able to pull the perforated vinyl over the edge and tuck it up under the roof metal skin. I can visualize you’re trying to do this without removing the roof, so this isn’t an option for your approach.

you certainly might be able to get one side up and put the strip in, but tightening and getting it to the other side might be the challenge. Have you considered contact cement under the fabric before the strip? I’m just wondering how you’re going to hold the ceiling material in place before adding the strip. If you were using perforate vinyl, you could possibly use a staple gun to tack down the fabric before adding the strip, but I think your using more of a cloth type fabric if I’m seeing it right. Not sure as I’ve never seen an ATC up close to see what they use for the ceiling material.

Anyhow, just thinking out loud with the above ideas. Hope that might be helpful.

Poky

Very helpful, thanks Poky

 

[Vic Harder]

Good ideas M.R.H. I'm done with insulating the ceiling, at least as much as I wanted to at this point:

There were two 1" thick bats of rockwool up there. I took one out, and cut the rigid pink insulation on the table saw to get them super snug and to avoid gaps. Where wires were routed, the wires typically were sandwiched between the two bats. I left a small gap in the rigid insulation and reinstalled another layer of rock wool there. Then taped it all to make it a solid vapor barrier. Not that it is a complete barrier given that I didn't do the whole ceiling.

I cut 1" wide 1/8" maple plywood I had left over from the interior siding, and finished it the same way with sealant, then 3 layers of Danish Oil. Here it is drying before I rubbed it for the final finish.

I snapped a shot of where the 2nd vent/fan is pre-framed and wired on the forward driver's side:

Note that the existing insulation didn't actually fill the whole void. The spacing between the long rails varied, from about 12" to 14" for where the fan would be. They obviously didn't cut 14" wide stips just for those, and used 12" bats everywhere. I know there isn't a lot of insulation in a FWC/ATC, but this makes it worse. I filled the gaps!

Now trying to decide if I want to install a "patch" or just keep going and remove the whole roof....

 

[Boonie]

Vic,
Reflections now on what your thinking was then?

I second what BillD said. Forget about the 1% of the time, and go slow, and plan on remodeling along the way. I rebuilt a Hawk Shell two years ago. We supplement the camper with a 12' CLAM brand tent that we use as our outdoor shelter. With the side walls and a Little Red Campfire, and when the weather is foul, it provides us a nice outdoor space to do most of our cooking and hanging out area.

Would do again:
- No padding on any benches, and don't miss them either.
- No inside table
- LED lights inside the cabinets
- 130L TruckFridge mounted on top of propane box, door opens with hinge at front of camper. Makes getting stuff out of the fridge without climbing into the camper itself a breeze. (We cook outside)
- Used 3/8" birch plywood. No voids, strong, and lighter than most builds. Inside walls use 1/8" birch. Rubbed oil finish.
- Large opening cabinets, so we have flexibility in what to stuff in there.
- 20g water tank, pump; plumbed so that that the "drain" valve (nice metal ball valve) has pressure for filling bottles and such outside)
- Propex heater
- Home designed/built solar/electrical system. That's a whole 'nother thread - http://www.wanderthewest.com/forum/topic/13230-i-need-more-power-scotty/

Would NOT do again:
- faucet inside. Thought we might do dishes inside, but that hasn't happened.
- batteries quiet as large. I could have gone smaller capacity and saved some weight/space
- Stuff quite as many infrastructure pieces into small spaces. This saved a huge amount of space, and yet can make maintenance a bit more work than it should be. I like the overall benefit, but can also see why FWC "wastes" space for ease of future adjustments.

Wish list:
- full queen bed WITHOUT slide out. I hate having to rearrange bedding, and the lack of space with the bed pulled out. I am thinking of a Grandby shell and using the first foot of floor space as additional bedding space with cabinets underneath. The effective inside space would be like a Hawk. OR, a flatbed Hawk/Fleet would have 5' bed as well
- Replace Propex with a TRUMA combined heater/water heater... for an outside shower... maybe...
- more storage space

Boonie

 

[Vic Harder]

Vic,
Reflections now on what your thinking was then?

Would do again:

1) No padding on any benches, and don't miss them either.
-- Yup, still the same, except I have started using the camper as a remote office. I have to sit in it for several hours in a row, so I wanted more comfy seating. That said, using the BonVivo folding chairs gives us both... no padding normally, and padding when we want it.


2) No inside table.
-- Different now. Same reason as above, I need a spot for my laptop, mouse, headset & coffee cup! Plus which we want a place to play crib/cards on. We still don't eat inside often though, so the lagun leg lets us swing the table out of the way most of the time.

3) LED lights inside the cabinets
-- Yup. Love the lighting.

4) 130L TruckFridge mounted on top of propane box, door opens with hinge at front of camper. Makes getting stuff out of the fridge without climbing into the camper itself a breeze. (We cook outside)
-- Mostly still true. Would prefer the fridge in that location for convienience, but moved it as far forward as possible to minimize the bouncing it gets. 3 "refridgerator surprises" on the same trip was 3 too many.

5) Used 3/8" birch plywood. No voids, strong, and lighter than most builds. Inside walls use 1/8" birch. Rubbed oil finish.
-- Yup. I wish I could have found 4'x8' sheets of birch. The baltic birch is a very strong wood. The 1/2" stuff had 9 layers. The maple I used on this build only has 5.

6) Large opening cabinets, so we have flexibility in what to stuff in there.
-- Sort of. We went smaller this time, had have WAY MORE storage space than before. We're hoping it helps with staying more organized.

7) 20g water tank, pump; plumbed so that that the "drain" valve (nice metal ball valve) has pressure for filling bottles and such outside)
-- Yup. Went 30gal this time so we can stay boondocked longer. We really like the outside pressurized water tap!

8) Propex heater.
-- Yup. Went with the bigger 2800 model for more heat output in the bigger camper. And their new digital thermostat which gives us more granular temp control. We also mounted that right at the head end of the bed for the convenience of cranking the heat before climbing out of bed.

9) Home designed/built solar/electrical system.
-- Yup. Way better than most (all?) factory systems.


Would NOT do again:

10) Faucet inside. Thought we might do dishes inside, but that hasn't happened.
-- Nope. Changed our minds on this one. Making hot water inside for coffee/tea and sponge baths has been very nice. Even added a nice flush mount sink and have liked the ability to do the whole morning routine without having to go outside until we are ready to break camp.

11) Batteries quiet as large. I could have gone smaller capacity and saved some weight/space.
-- Nope! Completely changed our minds on this one. I went LiFePo4 and have 2x the actual capacity as before. That said, they are smaller and take up less space and are waaaaay lighter. One BattleBorn 100AH would have been plenty, except we wanted to try cooking on an Induction cooktop, inside and out and needed to be able to draw close to 200 Amps to power the 1800W this thing draws. My wife likes the idea of no flame inside (no worries about starting a fire or carbon monoxide), and I like the idea of using even less propane.

12) Stuff quite as many infrastructure pieces into small spaces. This saved a huge amount of space, and yet can make maintenance a bit more work than it should be. I like the overall benefit, but can also see why FWC "wastes" space for ease of future adjustments.
-- Yup. I was very careful to leave everything easily accessible, AND still not waste space.

Wish list:

13) Full queen bed WITHOUT slide out. I hate having to rearrange bedding, and the lack of space with the bed pulled out. I am thinking of a Grandby shell and using the first foot of floor space as additional bedding space with cabinets underneath. The effective inside space would be like a Hawk. OR, a flatbed Hawk/Fleet would have 5' bed as well
-- Yup, and now we have it. I think we are going to love having no pull out and still having the full queen sized sleeping area. This was the main reason we picked up the Puma when we did.

14) Replace Propex with a TRUMA combined heater/water heater... for an outside shower... maybe...
-- Kinda/sorta. I looked at the TRUMA units. It was super hard to find someone who would sell me a unit, as they are supposed to be installed by a certified tech. I read the install manual and was amazed at how complicated a unit it is. Plus I think you need to have at least two heat outlets. We've been pretty happy with our NEMO portable shower, and heating the water up on a good campstove (Induction is slick, but the Camp Chef Everest is also super quick.)

15) More storage space.
-- Yup, and now we have it!

 

[lmwilco1]

Vic, I like the idea of a pressurized water valve outside the camper but how do you drain the water system?

 

[Vic Harder]

Vic, I like the idea of a pressurized water valve outside the camper but how do you drain the water system?

Turn on the taps and pump until empty. The outside tap/drain is still the lowest point in the system.

 

[Vic Harder]

I've heard/read that ATC (and maybe FWC) injects expanding foam into some of the roof structure. Can someone explain to me where/how this is done? I have most of my roof exposed now and this would be a good time to do this.... thanks!

 

[rando]

My hunch is that this is likely not worth the effort/mess. The thermal transfer through the frame is almost all through conduction through the tube itself. The thermal conductivity of aluminium is ~230 W/mK (about the best thermal conductor besides diamond), where as air is around 0.03. W/mK + convection and radiation. Filling the the tube with foam will stop convection/radiation, but that is likely small relative to the conduction through the tube itself. The tubes could become slightly more rigid, but again likely to by an insignificant amount.

That said, I don't know if FWC foam filled the tubes on my camper, so far I have not had to look inside them.

 

[rando]

Turn on the taps and pump until empty. The outside tap/drain is still the lowest point in the system.

This a great idea. We often fill water bottles/bladders outside, and it is frustratingly slow. One question though - do you leave your pump power on, or can you reach the switch from outside?

We usually also drain the water tank using the pump through the sink - much faster than the drain valve.

 

[Vic Harder]

This a great idea. We often fill water bottles/bladders outside, and it is frustratingly slow. One question though - do you leave your pump power on, or can you reach the switch from outside?

We usually also drain the water tank using the pump through the sink - much faster than the drain valve.

rando, the pump is off unless we plan to use it. The pump switch is reachable from the door, so it is simple to turn on if I forget to turn it on before leaving the camper. We turn it off when driving our away from camp.

Also, with the pump in the system, the drain valve will not "drain" any water unless the system is pressurized. So, no chance some prankster could drain your camper on you.