I am starting to really dislike my camper solar

[hoyden]

From that video, what I could gleen is that stock alternators often aren't up for the job of dealing with all the new stuff (fridge, camper batteries, etc)

All the wiring checked out so far. We're going to leave it unplugged from shore power for the night and see what it looks like in the morning and how it's behaving. From what I've noticed, it seems that it all works well for a few days after shore power, then it starts having precipitous drops as if the batteries aren't holding power.

We had one oddity - we turned camper power off and the battery wires were showing current flowing through the camper battery wires. Perhaps (normal) coming from the charge controller?

Wonder if I need a burlier alternator? My stock one is 130A

And a little mystery in the Controller - there are three pair of wires, but only two pair traceable.
One pair to the in-series batteries, second pair to solar panel, third pair ???

Some pics:

 

[BillTheHiker]

Vic,

so does the Blue Sea unit I have in my 2016 Fleet provide the type of modulation of current from the alterrnator that my 75 aH AGM battery WILL accept? I have found exactly what the video says: the alternator will never fully charge the deep cycle battery. I can start the day with the battery at 12.2 volts, drive 7 to 10 hours on a rainy, cloudy day so not much solar charging, and end up with maybe 12.7 volts. A day of good sun and no driving I am at 13.9 to 14.1 volts. I did a lot of both on my recent trip to East Coast. I measure with a Peak multimeter.

 

[hoyden]

I think I'll take my Taco to a local alternator place tomorrow and have him test it and load test and see if it's up for the job.
If it is, back to the drawing board.

 

[CougarCouple]

Evening
Are you leaving the camper load also disconnected from the batteries?
I’m wondering what the draw is when you isolated the batteries.

Russ
I think I have similar set up and it’s factory (ATC). Functional and I’ve had zero issues. I don’t think you need an alternator. If your doing the alternator check load test the batteries while your at it can’t hurt, and eliminating the batteries is part of finding the problem.

 

[hoyden]

Evening
Are you leaving the camper load also disconnected from the batteries?
I’m wondering what the draw is when you isolated the batteries.

Russ
I think I have similar set up and it’s factory (ATC). Functional and I’ve had zero issues. I don’t think you need an alternator. If your doing the alternator check load test the batteries while your at it can’t hurt, and eliminating the batteries is part of finding the problem.

We load tested the batteries, tested them with the camper power off, and tested without load with camper power on.
They were all normal. The batteries are fine.

 

[Advmoto18]

Bill

Short answer you need shore power (AC through a converter to DC) to achieve Bulk charging, unless you have a HD alternator.

I am aware some people/vendors profess that bulk charging is achievable through solar panels and vehicle alternators, but, laboratory testing has demonstrated such is rarely the case in RV/campers using solar panels and/or alternators without major electrical system upgrades. There are ways to trick the controller/system into thinking bulk charging is occurring, but, internal battery temps show such not to be the case during ionization.

For optimum battery health and longevity, the 3 stages of charging should occur: bulk, absorption then float. If bulk isn't achieved, then absorption occurs. While this will achieve a charge, it will not lead to a complete charge, especially in AGM batteries with a built-in digital controller.

Absorption stage is the slow process of ionization that follows bulk charging. To maintain batteries in optimum condition, all three stages of charging should be attained.

I would not advocate using the OEM alternator to charge the camper batteries while idling. This will induce a tremendous amount of heat on the alternator's coil and greatly reduce life span. Alternator charging should be a method to charge the camper batteries when tooling down the highway miles on end on a overcast day.

I have dual 220 amp alternators in my Super Duty to handle the truck/camper electrical load on and to reduce the heat build up within the alternators. $600 for two high output DB Electrical alternators! They have a 14.5 voltage set point so I can achieve bulk charging on camper batteries. BUT, while more amperage is not harmful, more volts can be, so be sure your vehicle electrical system can handle a higher voltage set point if you opt for a high output alternator. Super Duties diesel trucks are able to do so. I have a 16.5Ti Warn winch which simply sucks down energy (507 amp max draw) like a Red Bull addict.

Bill

 

[Advmoto18]

Hoyden

You have a problem either between the panel and controller, controller to batteries or a combination of both.

Your panel should be charging your house batteries in full day sun without issue, unless your frig is running full time.

My first task would be to chase the wires from the panel down to the controller. I'd be looking for chaffed/cut wire insulation causing a leak.

Bill

 

[hoyden]

Hey Bill,

I also think that "Your panel should be charging your house batteries in full day sun without issue, unless your frig is running full time."

We thought there might be a leak too, but it was showing 22v from the (solar) panel at the controller in partial sun.
???

 

[Happyjax]

Dawn,

You may get 22v but not the amps in partial sun. Depends how your panels react.

If you can, take your meter and remove the fuse to your hot wire on your batteries. Put the meter in current mode @10 amps (you need this so if your meter won't do 10 amps see if you can find one) and place it where the fuse would go. Make sure you are after the charge controller output..... You now have your meter in line with the circuit and it will read the current.

You can now monitor what your solar panels are putting out. If you have 100watts you should get 5ish amps in good sun. I forgot what your panel (s) are. 200 watts of panels in good sun might take out the fuse in the meter. No biggie but you will know your got over 10amps....lol

Your charge controller should be close to your batteries so you should not have a loss there.

That will pretty much eliminate your solar panels and your charge controller as the issue.....

 

[pvstoy]

Toyotas are not known for getting high voltage out of them, plus or minus ~14 volts. That is not going to get your camper batteries to a bulk stage. Other post her and the Expo poster White Wolf, has installed a DC to DC charger. You can read the rest of the linked post on how he did his on his Toyota.

I see that the controller is Go Power PWM. I would be interested as what the specs the panel has as far of the voltage ratings.

And when the panel is in the sun what does the controller show as what the panel output voltage is?

 

[pvstoy]

I found your manual if this is the right model

https://gpelectric.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/GP-PWM-30-UL_Manual-with-French_2018-04-10.pdf





Bulk/Absorption Charge @ 25°C: Set to 30 minutes every morning. Applied for 2 hours if the battery voltage drops below 12.3 volts

If I am reading that correct it will only give you a set time of voltage at 14.4 volts? If so this could be your problem with this controller as you are not getting enough time at a higher voltage. If so I would suggest a nice Victron with Bluetooth.

 

[klahanie]

Hi hoyden,
I'm following along here but don't have much to offer - knowing you are currently working on it - except to say this would be a great time those label those wires going into the battery compartment.

And, to reiterate a couple of things already said. Namely, it is a process of elimination (or should be) and to do one step at a time.

And that the components should be tested in isolation - it's important that there are no other loads or charges to confuse the measurement. For comparative readings, as many variable as possible should be eliminated.

 

[hoyden]

Hey Jackie!

My friend tested with an amp clamp, which tests the flow of current. At the peak, we read 5A coming in from the solar.

 

[pvstoy]

That is good, what was it on the other side of the controller to the battery side?
At that amp what was the voltage on either side of the controller?

 

[Vic Harder]

Hoyden,

Lots of good info here... but I bet it is starting to feel like "too much!" for a self-confessed electrophobe!

So, let me try and glean some of the key points for you:

1) Your solar panels are probably fine
2) Your solar controller is crap by design
3) Your batteries have been stressed by repeated low charge states and insufficient charging, but will probably be fine if you fix the charging problem
4) Your truck charging system will not do a good job of charging your camper batteries without some major changes

Details:

1) You confirmed the wiring, and the 22v at the controller is good. You could do the current test that Happyjax suggested, but I do't think this is the issue
2) This is the issue as Apointed out. 2 hours is NOT enough for bulk/absorb charging. I can explain why, but for now this item just needs replacing. I like the Victron gear. Trimetric works well too. Get BOTH the charger and the monitor, regardless of which of those two you get. Part numbers to follow if you want them. Oh and don't worry about that extra set of terminals on the existing controller. Those are for a second set of batteries if you have them, as per your manual https://www.outsidesupply.com/dual-30-amp-pwm-solar-charge-controller/
3) Batteries don't like being stressed so much, but are pretty tough. In the grand scheme of things you didn't hurt them much. IF they had frozen while this discharged, that would be a different story
4) Like you said "From that video, what I could gleen is that stock alternators often aren't up for the job of dealing with all the new stuff" This is true, especially since you drive a Toyota as pvstoy said. A burlier Toyota alternator will not make a difference. Toyota uses a charging profile that puts out a fairly low voltage to the truck battery, meaning that by the time that juice gets to the camper it won't have enough oomph to charge your camper batteries.

Other bits...
A) Your batteries are not huge. 2 x 79AH = 160AH or so. These are yours - https://www.batteriesplus.com/productdetails/sli24magmdc
Plus which the batteries are not true "Deep Cycle" batteries like a golf-cart battery would be, for example. No biggy now, since you have them already. Just be aware that any battery that lists "starting" in its list of applications isn't designed optimally for running your camper.

You asked if the "Blue Sea unit I have in my 2016 Fleet provide the type of modulation of current from the alterrnator that my 75 aH AGM battery WILL accept?"
- Yes, and no. Your alternator could charge the batteries in your camper if the wires going to it were thick enough, and if the separator didn't disconnect too soon. For Toyotas, the CTEK 250 is a good solution, as it bumps up the voltage nicely. Bernard on this forum uses one. But FAT wires are a good start. More details when you want them

C) Bill/Advmoto18 is right on the mark. IF you want to charge from the alternator/truck while driving... and I say IF... because if your solar controller was working right you would rarely need to charge from the truck. I have built my camper/truck to charge from both sources, and my alternator puts out BIG amps (80A is the highest I have seen) into my camper batteries

D) Should your solar panels be able to recharge your batteries? Maybe. You have 160AH total. 50% is 80AH, which should be able to run your fridge for at least 20 hours continuously. At which point the volt meter should read somewhere around 12.2v. You are not getting that from your batteries, (except maybe on the first night after being plugged into shore power for a while?). If your solar panels are 160W like the latest FWC are, then you generate ABOUT 50% to 80% of that most of the time. So you should see about 8-10A from the solar panels going into your batteries. If they are at 50%, you need 8 hours of continuous sunlight to get 80AH. Make sense? So your system is sized about perfectly to recharge your batteries every day, IFFFFF you get good sun for 8 hours. Anything less than that, and you will not recharge fully. Do you see now why your controller is junk? It is designed to give only 2 hours a day. Hopeless insufficient.

E) I see you added a measurement... 5A. So now you need 16 hours of daylight on those panels....

F) Maybe you do need BOTH a better controller and monitor, AND to beef up the charging system.


Phew... ask more questions!

 

[pvstoy]

Thank you Vic for reading all the post and summarizing the key points.

A Controller would be the first to install at the moment to help greatly.

A battery Monitor second to know what is going on in and out of the battery. With this you will know when you should plug into shore power to get you caught up.

And then work on a better battery separator such as a DC to DC system along with proper wire sizing.

Then start enjoying your trip than worrying about it.

 

[hoyden]

Funny, I was indeed at the "too much!" area and about to ask for a list. Ha! Thanks, Vic!

So, F) Maybe you do need BOTH a better controller and monitor, AND to beef up the charging system.

Okay, which controller and monitor? (links pretty please).
And getting a good controller and monitor will mean I don't need to get more solar, yes?
(oh, yes, I do have the 160w on the roof)

I thought the way these campers were built/installed was that they charged the camper batteries while driving - but all this explains why when I was low a couplea years ago and went and drove around for a couplea hours like people said to do, my controller didn't read any different when I got back. Der.

And "beef up the charging system" entails a burlier wire - what gauge? and better battery separator, yes? Is this the battery separator: CTEK 250

Should I see about if Batteries Plus would exchange my batteries for something else?
They have a good warranty, but dunno they'd exchange em for something different.

Thanks y'all!

 

[pvstoy]

https://www.victronenergy.com/solar-charge-controllers

Here is a link to Victron page. I would look at the Smart Solar controller MPPT. The first number is how many volts open circuit from the panel. Second number is how many amps. Your 160 watt panel is under 30 volts? and around 5 amps. So you don't need a expensive one, but if you did add a second panel you need to buy now for that addition in the future. It could be plugged into the rear solar port on the camper.

If you added a same panel and wired it in series then you would look at the first number and be around 50 volts ( add voltage of the two panels together) and the second number in amps around 5 amps.

If you added a same panel and you wired in parallel (Like your two batteries are wired together) then you would add the amps, so looking at the second number on the MPPT would be around 10 to 12 amps and voltage around 30 or less.

So a Smart Solar MPPT could be a 75/15 , 100/15 or 100/20. What fits your price range. The 100/30 unit gets much bigger in size. If you never added a second panel then the 75/10 would work with the existing panel just fine.


https://www.victronenergy.com/battery-monitors/bmv-712-smart

The Victron BMV-712 smart battery monitor is Bluetooth and works well.

 

[Advmoto18]

Hoyden, Vic is spot on with his summation! Great post Vic!

While we think solar panels are all-capable, again, remember, published panel data/capability by vendors often reflects perfect alignment to sun and conditions.

You will never see these conditions with a fixed, roof mounted panel. There will always be some "angle off" relationship to the sun.

I have a 100W panel on my roof. It will not fully charge my deep cycle Optima Blue Tops with only the frig running primarily due to amperage drop due to angle-off from the sun. I use the portable panel to supplement the roof. It is the only way I can keep my batteries from discharging and actually gaining an absorption charge during a summer day in the desert using only panels.

As I mentioned earlier, my system is setup so that I can maintain batteries in the best possible charge state during the day. I try to minimize any load at night that will deplete the batteries.

FWC installed solar components in new and especially older campers will not achieve bulk charging without upgraded components and generally leave a lot to be desired. The Victron controller and Blue Seas separator are just several of the upgrades that will get you to bulk charging. I checked the data on the wife's Tacoma alternator; I have serious reservations this alternator can achieve bulk charging. I think the voltage set point is too low.

I invested in the alternators and Optima Blue tops at the same time years ago. I upgraded the controller 3 years ago and finally got around to installing the Blue Seas unit 2 years ago. The aforementioned upgrades keep the entire electrical system for both truck and camper at peak charging ability to ensure optimum energy storage for the given environmental conditions. Even so, I still look to plug into shore power at any opportunity. Shore power charging is truly the only way to keep AGM batteries healthy for the long haul.

Hoyden, I would head back up to Prescott and see the folks at AT if they installed your solar components. Something has been amiss since Day 1 of ownership. I've stopped in there several times on my travels out west and they have always been gracious helping me sort out minor camper issues. And I did not buy my camper from them. But, try to get a good understanding of the system. Solar is not the golden nugget for charging camper batteries, but, it works well if quality components are properly installed and setup.

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

If anybody wants to REALLY get into understanding solar and charging voltages and such, I recommend Handy Bob's blog posts on the subject.

https://handybobsolar.wordpress.com/

Just be prepared to enjoy the ranting . . .